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Old 08-28-2012, 04:36 PM   #76
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ki
The question then arises that if the balance of ki is meant to be in you BEFORE it is manifest between you and someone else "AIki in me, before aiki between thee and me" how and where does that change and engagement?
I contend that the *blending* everyone is shooting for-including the misunderstood four legged animal model-is incorrect and will leave you open for counters and being controlled youself. It is not and never was the aiki the Asians were noting as a deep level of control.

Cooperation
When is cooperation useful?
What are its limits?
When is it meaningful to create pressure?
What kind of pressure?
Against who?

When does cooperation cause more harm and hamper progress?
When is it self defeating and self deluding?
When is it antithetical to real martial skills?

Dan
Ki
Love and kindness in me before love and kindness between thee and me.

Co operation.

They act, I act making one co-act. A co operation.

Unlimited. Always useful. Never creates pressure. Against anyone. Never causes harm. Never self defeating, a continuous state of winning. Pure Aikido martial.

So be it.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:40 PM   #77
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I read the claim that certain people are or were unthrowable as saying simply that some people can be thrown only when they allow it, but can't be thrown against their will.
Yes, I get that but call that delusory. Harder to be thrown maybe.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:41 PM   #78
Keith Larman
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

When I read comments like Graham's above, I'm reminded of a quote.

Quote:
Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. Mike Tyson

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Old 08-28-2012, 04:47 PM   #79
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
When I read comments like Graham's above, I'm reminded of a quote.
Maybe that applies to your comment.

Mine however is not a comment, it's a way.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:48 PM   #80
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'll change my mind when I find someone who uses the mechanical models and actually has something unusual to share. So far its been a bust.
Dan
I have a good friend that you and I have talked about who uses mechanical models......mostly because it is the easiest way to reach the western mechanical mind. In the short term and because it is enough for most...this works. That is not all that he is though.......
Gary
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:51 PM   #81
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ki
Love and kindness in me before love and kindness between thee and me.

Co operation.

They act, I act making one co-act. A co operation.

Unlimited. Always useful. Never creates pressure. Against anyone. Never causes harm. Never self defeating, a continuous state of winning. Pure Aikido martial.

So be it.

Peace.G.
Drifts in a warm sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides..........
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:59 PM   #82
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Drifts in a warm sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides..........
Very nice, I like it. Is that yours or taken from somewhere? If it's yours then you have a hidden poetic talent.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:05 PM   #83
gregstec
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
This is the final indisputable proof that everybody can be thrown nomatter how centered they are or how much ding dong they practiced !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqzunKZr3Eg

Watch, listen and learn folks !
Cool! but I don't think these folks were being thrown against their will - actually, I think some of them warped folks probably would have paid to be thrown like that

Greg
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:12 PM   #84
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Uh, OK. So what is the metaphor of the sphere and what does it mean in relation to the body? I have never heard of this metaphor and have no idea what it refers to, and I'm probably not the only one. I have no way of knowing that there is a metaphor relating the body to a sphere unless someone says so...

My point in responding to the question about the sphere with a comment about different models of the sphere is that -- it depends what you mean by a sphere and it depends what you mean by stability. I.e., more info is needed to answer the question of whether a sphere is stable.

Personally I usually find mechanical models clear and metaphors just confusing unless I already know what the metaphor is talking about. So I often have no clue what people are talking about until they stop using metaphors and tell me directly what they mean. I have met people who were the opposite.
Here is some (possibly) relevant stuff - keep in mind that this is the product of my own personal rantings and ravings, and certainly that I certainly do not and can not speak for Dan:

Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae - Part 3 - More on six directions...

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-28-2012, 05:25 PM   #85
Keith Larman
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Maybe that applies to your comment.

Mine however is not a comment, it's a way.

Peace.G.
Um, okay.

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Old 08-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #86
lars beyer
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Cool! but I don't think these folks were being thrown against their will - actually, I think some of them warped folks probably would have paid to be thrown like that

Greg
Exactly, speaking in metaphors, this is what itīs all about isnīt it ?
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:27 PM   #87
gregstec
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Here is some (possibly) relevant stuff - keep in mind that this is the product of my own personal rantings and ravings, and certainly that I certainly do not and can not speak for Dan:

Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae - Part 3 - More on six directions...

Best,

Chris
As someone has said: "this is not rocket science" - the concepts and principles are really simple - the hard part is developing the skill within - too much effort is spend on making it much more complex than it really is - spend more time training making it your own!

Greg
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:29 PM   #88
gregstec
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Exactly, speaking in metaphors, this is what itīs all about isnīt it ?
Absolutely, fun!!!!
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:30 PM   #89
Rob Watson
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Drifts in a warm sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides..........
The next stanza is about sharks and nasty things from the deep ... or should be. Balance and all that.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:07 PM   #90
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The next stanza is about sharks and nasty things from the deep ... or should be. Balance and all that.
Drifts in a warm sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides..........

From down below, rise hell's deadly foe, but meet only the water where the moon abides.....

How's that?

Peace G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:19 PM   #91
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Depends what it's a sphere OF. A sphere of mass in outer space (i.e., relatively far from other masses) held together by its own gravity can be very stable - it may remain spherical or almost so for millenia. A sphere of water on a table in my kitchen, not so much.

Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material).
How about communication actually being a circle and thus a perfect communication being a perfect circle? More pertinent to the topic I would think.

Then seeing that circle is merely the circumference of a sphere.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:51 PM   #92
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Drifts in a warm sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides..........

From down below, rise hell's deadly foe, but meet only the water where the moon abides.....

How's that?

Peace G.
Drifts in a warn sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides.......

The moonlight reflects the silver sides as bubbles curtain a turning path........

From down below, rise hell's deadly foe, the alarm clock rings the Monday's dawn......

Gary
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:29 PM   #93
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Here is some (possibly) relevant stuff - keep in mind that this is the product of my own personal rantings and ravings, and certainly that I certainly do not and can not speak for Dan:

Morihei Ueshiba, Budo and Kamae - Part 3 - More on six directions...

Best,

Chris
Thanks. I just skimmed this but even that gives some idea of what you're talking about.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 08-28-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:48 PM   #94
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

It's actually kind of funny, but I think you're WAY overestimating how much I know what you're talking about or am familiar with any of the things you're talking about, and perhaps because of that reading way too much into what I'm saying or asking.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well that's a personal choice I guess.
Six direction method imparts a sphere -in theory- but it uses the mind/ body in specific ways to manifest that feel. Think of one point as a model. There is no sphere, so talking about how strong a sphere is and the qualities of it are waste of time. You cannot make a sphere out of your body and if you try, you will fail in innumerable ways. Likewise there are innumerable Aikido people who claim to use Tohei's model or to understand ki who have nothing unusual by way of power. Their one point is sort of okay under dojo conditions but fails under stress. Using the sphere as a mechanical model is inefficient. Describing what the body must do to manifest six directions is an exacting model that is a success. A success with a history.
Remember, Ueshiba was talking about the body...and not the "spiritual" things people erroneously assigned to his physical principles.

Why?
The really wonderful question is why does six direction blow up the push/pull model? The answer is simple but very hard to grok at first, harder still to do. Most simply cannot see how you could be in agreement with someone and totally neutralizing them at the same time. Moreover what that does to your own body to strengthen it and how? And if you understand THAT then you understand that making aiki between you and them like the oft quoted four legged animal between you and someone else was flawed from the start. Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Shirata had it right.

There is no debate in person. So I prefer to debate in that venue, where teachers have to provide proof of their understanding in an inescapable venue under stress.
Dan
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:32 PM   #95
stan baker
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
And yet it's at that point
when you know you've arrived,
there's that someone
waiting around the corner
who will let you know,
that you're not there yet.

Ron
One should study with that person
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:15 AM   #96
RonRagusa
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
One should study with that person
Only if one is interested in what that person has to offer.

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Old 08-29-2012, 09:23 AM   #97
phitruong
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material).
was thinking about the yoga ball, that i used as chair, that i am sitting on top at the moment. i pushed it around, pounced on it, stretched my back, pushing it into walls, and so on. it always bounced back and/or diverted by power elsewhere. it's firm yet yielding. it flexed and held its shape. the only thing i have not tried yet is wearing leotard while using the ball.

a thought occur to me (i know random thought just pop in and out, must have been because of too much empty space) that if you spin the yin-yang symbol on its axis, it would be a yin-yang sphere, which doesn't really mean anything at all.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:29 AM   #98
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material).
Generalities fail ... hollow sphere made of cardboard crushes much more easily than a hollow box made of cardboard. Details and context matter.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #99
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
was thinking about the yoga ball, that i used as chair, that i am sitting on top at the moment. i pushed it around, pounced on it, stretched my back, pushing it into walls, and so on. it always bounced back and/or diverted by power elsewhere. it's firm yet yielding. it flexed and held its shape. the only thing i have not tried yet is wearing leotard while using the ball.

a thought occur to me (i know random thought just pop in and out, must have been because of too much empty space) that if you spin the yin-yang symbol on its axis, it would be a yin-yang sphere, which doesn't really mean anything at all.
Okay, take your body and...go be a ball. Ya might as well use the old and tired...go relax.
It's more martial art B.S. that has produced...well...what we are looking at in modern budo.

There are things you can do with your body that will produce the effect we are discussing but arguing over the properties of spheres, and spirals is pure crap. Doubt it? Just go feel the guys using all the mechanical models. It's the neatest thing to do; take away someones waza, don't let them do a technique and see what they have. Most everyone has nothing. Nothing at all. After all this talk, after 40 years of discussing aiki, they really don't know what it means or how it is accomplished, and when put to any number of tests they simply fail and fall apart.

How the body is affected by the mind is critical.We need to arrive at a point that is beyond all debate, we should be looking at palpable results.
Does it really matter what someones internet opinion is?
What their rank is?
Is there anyone left who wants provable results?
It is the most amazing thing to hear someone and read someone talk of ki testing or internal power and aiki ..and be out teaching in public and then watch their videos as...they...wobble and fall apart with highly cooperative testing inside their own dojo then enter into a dialogue with people who are publicly known for remaining stable in highly stressed environments. I know budo is...uhm...unique and groovy with many waza and neat histories of tales of yore and all, but I think honest self-assessment of actual deliverables goes a long way.

All of our legends and the founders of our arts, are of men with unusual power, unusual fighting ability!
Who are the modern men with unusual power?
Unusual fighting ability?
Where are the students with unusual power and fighting ability?
What the heck is going on that there is a catastrophic failure of deliverables and no one cares? They seemingly just want to be a part of a groovy club doing a hobby
Budo and aiki and ki....what a weird concept, where real results don't matter to those paying and sweating. It's like a swimming coach who's students all drown and he argues "swimming" with the other coaches who produce winners.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-29-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:50 AM   #100
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
One should study with that person
Not really. You would have to care about ki, aiki and testing. You would have to care about real results. Some cannot produce testable results and don't care.
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