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  #26  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:26 PM
Niall Matthews AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
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How to Turn


Dancing in the Streets by John Henderson

The emperor his father published an edict,...
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we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Last edited by akiy : 08-21-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:47 AM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: How to Turn

FWIW I was talking about this with a Japanese Lady who trained for years with Tohei in Japan before moving here. She noticed I was wearing one of my knee braces (muscles get out of balance then my kneecap likes to dislocate and things go from bad to worse). I asked her if Tohei ever talked about whether to move from the balls of the feet or the heels. She told me that it didn't matter which as long as things were moving together. In other words, you don't let any part of the body "drive" any other part. I think this goes to Kevin's comment about torsional stresses on knees, etc. She said a body with "ki flowing" will move naturally and smoothly, all connected, all working together to create movement. No one part makes other parts move. So my take away from that comment was to be connected up correctly and to allow every part of the "chain" to work together in movement rather than being the usually stiff-hipped guy I normally am. That's what I fight. Sink a bit more, get the hips moving, then things start to loosen up all over the place. Then I can move and turn from the balls of the feet, or the heels, just depending on which works better for what I'm doing. Which is now sounding exactly like what has already been said...

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Old 08-28-2012, 11:51 AM   #26
Keith Larman
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Re: How to Turn

I left out one thing. The point, I think, was that if you move in a coordinated fashion with all parts in the chain contributing to the movement rather than "following" (in a sense), then the proper way to turn will be whichever you want to employ. If in a rather stationary place then the heels might be perfectly reasonable. If you're exploding forward and turning then the balls of the feet. I found myself goofing around after class trying to turn different ways and had a blast turning 180 in place with the forward foot on the ball of the foot, the back foot on the heel. Interesting stuff.

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Old 08-28-2012, 11:56 AM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: How to Turn

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
FWIW I was talking about this with a Japanese Lady who trained for years with Tohei in Japan before moving here. She noticed I was wearing one of my knee braces (muscles get out of balance then my kneecap likes to dislocate and things go from bad to worse). I asked her if Tohei ever talked about whether to move from the balls of the feet or the heels. She told me that it didn't matter which as long as things were moving together. In other words, you don't let any part of the body "drive" any other part. I think this goes to Kevin's comment about torsional stresses on knees, etc. She said a body with "ki flowing" will move naturally and smoothly, all connected, all working together to create movement. No one part makes other parts move. So my take away from that comment was to be connected up correctly and to allow every part of the "chain" to work together in movement rather than being the usually stiff-hipped guy I normally am. That's what I fight. Sink a bit more, get the hips moving, then things start to loosen up all over the place. Then I can move and turn from the balls of the feet, or the heels, just depending on which works better for what I'm doing. Which is now sounding exactly like what has already been said...
"One thing moves everything moves" (I tung chuan tung) - I read that in a book somewhere.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-28-2012, 12:01 PM   #28
Keith Larman
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Re: How to Turn

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
"One thing moves everything moves" (I tung chuan tung) - I read that in a book somewhere.

Best,

Chris
Yup...

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Old 08-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #29
niall
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Re: How to Turn

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Of course, this is harder to portray in romaji
Chris when someone makes a categorical statement that Morihei Ueshiba didn't speak of ka without mi they had better be able to back it up. It doesn't make any difference if it is in romaji or kana or kanji . Either he did or he didn't.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:26 AM   #30
Chris Li
 
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Re: How to Turn

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Chris when someone makes a categorical statement that Morihei Ueshiba didn't speak of ka without mi they had better be able to back it up. It doesn't make any difference if it is in romaji or kana or kanji . Either he did or he didn't.
He did - in that Mark was referring specifically to the paired kanji for Fire and Water - not phonetic syllables (or so I read his intentions).

Ueshiba cited that pair repeatedly and incessantly, all through "Take Musu Aiki".

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-30-2012, 11:45 AM   #31
niall
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Re: How to Turn

Actually Chris he didn't refer to anything else. Specifically or otherwise. He said
Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba didn't speak of ka without mi.
And as for not using the kanji for fire without the kanji for water? Every time O Sensei said I'll see you on Tuesday he was using the word for fire without the word for water.

Most people on here don't speak Japanese. They would read this nonsense and think it was correct.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 08-30-2012, 12:00 PM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Re: How to Turn

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Actually Chris he didn't refer to anything else. Specifically or otherwise. He said

And as for not using the kanji for fire without the kanji for water? Every time O Sensei said I'll see you on Tuesday he was using the word for fire without the word for water.

Most people on here don't speak Japanese. They would read this nonsense and think it was correct.
Even if most people don't speak Japanese, I don't see requests to explain every Japanese word in every post (aren't they all just randon syllables in romaji?) - still, I get that it can be misunderstood, which is why I elaborated.

I think that you're deliberately taking this over-literally.

Of course there would be times when he said (yo)katta (good) without "in", but that doesn't diminish any importance that Ueshiba placed on In and Yo as a paired group.

Since it's nonesense, perhaps you could explain why Ueshiba thought that Fire and Water should not be paired, or why his repeated usage (and it's very repetative) of the two is not important.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #33
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Re: How to Turn

Chris has explained what I meant very well. Thanks Chris!

Mark
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:47 PM   #34
niall
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Re: How to Turn

I won't spend any more time on this.

This is a discussion thread about a column called How to Turn. I know because I wrote it. In the comments someone made a categorical statement that was obviously wrong. I pointed that out.

I don't understand why you keep trying to defend something that was wrong. And when I point out an error it's deliberately taking this over-literally? But when you pointed out an error yesterday it was OK? That's hypocrisy.

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
He's an old timer, for sure, but how did he get to be "one of the founders of aikido in the USA"? The way that I count the numbers, Aikido was well established in the USA by the time he even met Ueshiba in '64.
I have not discussed fire and water except in some blog posts. For example, wind forest fire mountain. I certainly have never said they should not be paired together or that they are not important. So if you want to discuss them in the context of How to Turn please do. Otherwise start a different thread.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 08-31-2012, 02:50 AM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: How to Turn

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I won't spend any more time on this.

This is a discussion thread about a column called How to Turn. I know because I wrote it. In the comments someone made a categorical statement that was obviously wrong. I pointed that out.

I don't understand why you keep trying to defend something that was wrong. And when I point out an error it's deliberately taking this over-literally? But when you pointed out an error yesterday it was OK? That's hypocrisy.
I think that the two case are somewhat different, but that's just my opinion.

As for Mark's statement - well, "never" may be an overstatement, if you interpret his post very literally, but I don't believe that he meant that to be the case.

Nevertheless, I think that his basic point, the conjunction of opposing forces, was entirely relevant, especially in the context in which it was being used - the use of the body in general and with regards to turning specifically.

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I have not discussed fire and water except in some blog posts. For example, wind forest fire mountain. I certainly have never said they should not be paired together or that they are not important. So if you want to discuss them in the context of How to Turn please do. Otherwise start a different thread.
I think that Fire and Water in the above blog are a little different than what I had in mind, and from the context that Ueshiba uses.

The original post by Mark actually brought them up specifically discussing them in reference to turning, but you didn't seem interested in discussing it:

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
If you believe that going forwards means simultaneously going backwards I wish you luck. You obviously need it.

The idea that Morihei Ueshiba didn't speak of ka without mi is nonsense. Ka is a letter of the Japanese alphabet as well as a word in Japanese with several meanings. It is used in hundreds of compound words that do not contain mi.
It was that response that I was addressing. If you would like to discuss Mark's post in the context of How to Turn please do. Otherwise maybe it would be a better idea to start a different thread about how you disagree with the fundamental assumptions behind the post.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-02-2012, 05:30 PM   #36
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: How to Turn

General advice on turning: hips, foot and knee move at the same time. Knee before foot is just not natural: you're basically forcing your knee to move in a direction it isn't even made for. The more you lift your feet, the less you'll tend to turn your knee before you actually turn your foot.

As for the part of the foot I use for turning, I only turn on the ball of my foot. Turning on my heels delays any forward momentum, whereas turning on the balls of my foot allows me to step in any direction the moment my foot hits the ground.

Isn't stuff like this sport science, by the way?
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:05 PM   #37
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: How to Turn

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Thanks for everyone's comments.

Tom I believe Sadaharu Oh himself called it a flamingo stance in A Zen Way of Baseball but I no longer have a copy. It's a good read.

.
Of course! Flamingo position - flamingo batting! Cannot believe that I did not recognize it. I read the book ages ago - and yes a very good read!
Thanks for letting me know - will enjoy rereading the book now!

Tom
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