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Old 08-27-2012, 03:11 PM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
By the way...Happy Birthday Mary

Everyone.....Let us take a different approach....... Let me ask a question and have everyone answer.....

Question: Where would you want to have the ability to be stable in all directions when moving and essentially not be throw-able? What circumstances could exist where this ability could be useful?

Let's think of it from that perspective..

Gary
Why would you want to be unthrowable?

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:14 PM   #27
morph4me
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why would you want to be unthrowable?

Peace.G.
Why wouldn't you?

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:25 PM   #28
gregstec
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
By the way...Happy Birthday Mary

Everyone.....Let us take a different approach....... Let me ask a question and have everyone answer.....

Question: Where would you want to have the ability to be stable in all directions when moving and essentially not be throw-able? What circumstances could exist where this ability could be useful?

Let's think of it from that perspective..

Gary
I think the more appropriate question would be "What circumstance could exist where this ability would not be useful?" IMO, there are none!

Greg
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:33 PM   #29
gregstec
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Well, that play back and forth is a big part of what it's all about, IMO. I mean if someone grabs me, my goal is to connect, control and/or throw. If I connect to them and start applying my strength to take control and they're able to connect back to me, then chances are they're going to find a spot to push me off my center at some point, if they can. They may not be able to though, even if they can connect back to me. There are so many potential layers to that back and forth based on the skill levels or disparity of skill levels.
What Chris said.... there is a difference between connecting to someone and having someone connect to you - too many focus on the former and not the latter - it all starts will you and it all stays with you - the control comes from them being a part of you and not you becoming a part of them - you don't look for control; it just comes as part of their connection to you when you become one; which is you

Greg
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #30
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Of course, if they're close enough to break your nose or kick you in the groin then you're close enough to do the same to them, so what's your point?

Best,

Chris
My point, as you know, is that nobody just grabs you and stands there.

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Old 08-27-2012, 03:37 PM   #31
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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That would be "ugly giant bags of mostly water" thank you very much.

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Old 08-27-2012, 03:48 PM   #32
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why would you want to be unthrowable?

Peace.G.
Graham
Ok. Change that to stable in all directions while moving........when would you not want this? It seems that if you can't be destabilized you can't be unbalanced......when would you not want this? In a changing fluid environment would you not want this?

Gary
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:52 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
My point, as you know, is that nobody just grabs you and stands there.
Of course, not, but the next step after the grab is built on what happens during the grab. Both people (as I said) are in range and capable of doing something after the grab, so that's not really an issue (IMO) worth worrying about all that much. OTOH, who's stable and who isn't is going to make a big difference - IMO, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2012, 04:06 PM   #34
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
Ok. Change that to stable in all directions while moving........when would you not want this? It seems that if you can't be destabilized you can't be unbalanced......when would you not want this? In a changing fluid environment would you not want this?

Gary
Everyone wants to be stable while sitting, standing or moving yes.

Innately everyone would like to maintain it in 'difficult' circumstances too.

So far so good.....

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:31 PM   #35
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I would say that the attempt to form the connection in the first place will tend to get you into trouble. Connections form - but it's almost (or entirely) a function of what you're doing inside yourself.

Yeah, it's a little bit of a head twister...

Best,

Chris
sure, with someone with skills it's very different. I had a very specific scenario playing in my head when I said that (kata otoshi), direct, irimi, , but yes, you move your connected body and the connections happen. It's always about what you're doing in you.

A head twister, to be sure, but how much more interesting is it than before?
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:34 PM   #36
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Question: Where would you want to have the ability to be stable in all directions when moving and essentially not be throw-able? What circumstances could exist where this ability could be useful?

Let's think of it from that perspective..

Gary
Assuming I'm understanding the questions properly:
Always. Every circumstance. Part of my focus in ukemi is in how to find stability while in slightly-to-completely overextended positions. As Nage I'm trying to never be over extended (i.e. always stable in all directions). In both cases I'm trying to be nage, even if I might not be trying 100% such as in the case with brand new people, for example.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:10 PM   #37
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Of course, not, but the next step after the grab is built on what happens during the grab. Both people (as I said) are in range and capable of doing something after the grab, so that's not really an issue (IMO) worth worrying about all that much. OTOH, who's stable and who isn't is going to make a big difference - IMO, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.
To a point... but you don't have to be that stable to hurt someone, especially if you're armed. I mean I can see it gives you an advantage, just not sure it's the only thing to be worrying about...

Also what if both are stable?
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:17 PM   #38
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
To a point... but you don't have to be that stable to hurt someone, especially if you're armed. I mean I can see it gives you an advantage, just not sure it's the only thing to be worrying about...

Also what if both are stable?
You don't have to study martial arts to hurt someone either, but we do - not for the hurting, but you get my point, which is that we're trying to do things better.

Stability is not everything, of course, but it's so fundamental that you ignore it at your peril, I think. Everything builds from that. Like learning the alphabet.

If both are stable? Well, it's not an absolute quantity, but the more equal they are then the more other things come into play - but isn't it more interesting that way?

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2012, 05:18 PM   #39
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why were we taught to always cooperate?
It helps condition us to pay our dues on time ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:32 PM   #40
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

Innately everyone would like to maintain it in 'difficult' circumstances too.

So far so good.....

Peace.G.
Graham
How do you train that? How to you structure your training, both body and mind, to have the body stable as much as possible no matter the circumstances? No matter which side of the equation it is operating on......

Gary
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:36 PM   #41
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Assuming I'm understanding the questions properly:
Always. Every circumstance. Part of my focus in ukemi is in how to find stability while in slightly-to-completely overextended positions.
Same question...how do you train this? Thinking about it is just that...thinking. What do you do individually to program this into your body?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
As Nage I'm trying to never be over extended (i.e. always stable in all directions). In both cases I'm trying to be nage, even if I might not be trying 100% such as in the case with brand new people, for example.
Same here...how do you train this?

Gary
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:36 PM   #42
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

co(together)+operate(act,work) I think that answers why you were asked to do so. That's why we have training partners.

Of course we could have training 'obstructers', which would be the opposite and thus lead to no training.

So until we recognise cooperation as a vital ingredient we cannot move forward.

Such statements as cooperation is bad thus never make any sense to me at all for it is vital and only a matter of degrees of and with what.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #43
Gary David
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
To a point... but you don't have to be that stable to hurt someone............
In the cooperative style of training that is a part of Aikido....you are less likely to hurt someone if you are stable and give away that stability temporarily when you choice to...like taking ukemi... than you would be if you are just flying around double weighted to the same side when you attack as most do.

Gary
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:45 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
How do you train that? How to you structure your training, both body and mind, to have the body stable as much as possible no matter the circumstances? No matter which side of the equation it is operating on......

Gary
Simply by training, that's what training is for is it not.

Body stability firstly comes through kata, drills of motions, practice until the body is used to the moves and comfortable with them. Thus the first level of body stability.

This is repeated and true for various levels when new motions are introduced.

Mind is a matter of practice and drills too with the focus on it, thus leading to stable mind.

When the physical motion is comfortable and the mind is too you have mind and body coordination.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:47 PM   #45
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
co(together)+operate(act,work) I think that answers why you were asked to do so. That's why we have training partners.

Of course we could have training 'obstructers', which would be the opposite and thus lead to no training.

So until we recognise cooperation as a vital ingredient we cannot move forward.

Such statements as cooperation is bad thus never make any sense to me at all for it is vital and only a matter of degrees of and with what.

Peace.G.
Graham
This one seems a little out of sorts for me...not sure what you are talking to.

I never that cooperative training was not part of the mix.....it is that most are tooo cooperative, are not in themselves stable in moving, often it not always double weighted to one side..... So how do you get your pairs past this?

Gary
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:57 PM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
This one seems a little out of sorts for me...not sure what you are talking to.

I never that cooperative training was not part of the mix.....it is that most are tooo cooperative, are not in themselves stable in moving, often it not always double weighted to one side..... So how do you get your pairs past this?

Gary
Wasn't for you it was related to post 39. Was writing it while you were posting hence it came after one of your posts.

Peace.G
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:09 PM   #47
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
By the way...Happy Birthday Mary

Everyone.....Let us take a different approach....... Let me ask a question and have everyone answer.....

Question: Where would you want to have the ability to be stable in all directions when moving and essentially not be throw-able? What circumstances could exist where this ability could be useful?

Let's think of it from that perspective..

Gary
Gary,
How would you answer these?

After rereading this, I'd add that I would want to be unbalanced/unstable, in some way, in order to provide my training partner with something to take advantage of or to show what it feels like compared with a more stable operation.
Otherwise, I'm pretty much always trying to be balanced in all directions and to use my whole body to apply pressure to my partner's center through whatever point(s) I'm making contact with. As uke this translates into an effort for a single, well-defined attack which nage should be able to respond to in a way which allows him or her to seize control, and through that control, move me more or less at will. If nage doesn't seize control enough, then as uke, because I'm always trying to "be nage" somewhat, some part of my body rotates and I try to enter around their strength. My understanding is that, to the extent that I am balanced, my body will naturally find parts with which to enter into aite. I am always somewhat off balance in the sense that I do not use my body perfectly, so in a sense, i would think we are always being unstable, it's just that it's up to the other person to understand or otherwise be developed enough to take advantage of it.
Sorry if I am repeating anything others have already said, or if I'm missing the point. I'm juggling my lads while typing this...cyber randori!
Take care!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:16 PM   #48
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
How do you train that? How to you structure your training, both body and mind, to have the body stable as much as possible no matter the circumstances? No matter which side of the equation it is operating on......

Gary
Gary, having answered this question above allow me to go further and add a couple of things to do with mind and thus mind stability.

Mind has a centre too and thus when centred is in a particular state, condition, which at that point is gives mind as well as body coordination.

This state of mind is one we are all familiar with and is the reason we study and practice. It is called understanding.

The second point I would make regarding the mind and the harder one to accomplish yet vital especially to Aikido is the state of mind which acts rather than reacts. The one which acts is stable yet alert and balanced and the mind which reacts is unstable and unbalanced.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:31 PM   #49
CorkyQ
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Osensei being thrown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nwNg...ure=plpp_video
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:36 PM   #50
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Nobody here ever said that Ueshiba didn't take ukemi - that's really not the point of the conversation.

Best,

Chris

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