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Old 08-22-2012, 12:47 PM   #126
Chris Evans
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Exclamation very compliant ukie's

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
If you train in a dojo where most of your training is with very compliant ukie's, you may become too confident until that confidence is shattered by a guy in the street that doesn't know he has to comply with you and your technique.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
"...very compliant ukie's... & become too confident..." does not just apply to aikido. I know plenty karateka & taichichuan-folks like that: it's the nature of the business.

how long does it take for it to sink in that the aikido dojo one's in is too compliant & predictable?

p.s. i'm still working on 200 wrist pushups for warm up (and 30 minutes of hard atemi), Henrysensei...not even close yet.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:09 PM   #127
Chris Evans
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Wink Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
It costs more to practice than with .40 or 9mm, though.
That's very short sighted. Use the 9 or 40 if that's what you feel comfortable controlling, but, unless you have the training budget of USN SEALS or Deltas, better to focus on quality of practice.

Yes, unpredictable yet strong aikido and Colt 45 skills are wise (and fun) use of training time. Mr. Seagull was on to something here.

Some medical examiners have observed the effectiveness of a single accurate 45 vs multiple 9s.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:17 PM   #128
Hellis
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Re: very compliant ukie's

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
"...very compliant ukie's... & become too confident..." does not just apply to aikido. I know plenty karateka & taichichuan-folks like that: it's the nature of the business.

how long does it take for it to sink in that the aikido dojo one's in is too compliant & predictable?

p.s. i'm still working on 200 wrist pushups for warm up (and 30 minutes of hard atemi), Henrysensei...not even close yet.
200 - That is just the beginning push-ups on the back of the wrists with fingers pointing inwards - then try with fingers pointing outwards - when you start to feel a little confident try someone kneeling or sitting on your back - good for the wrists - fore-arms - mind.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:31 PM   #129
Chris Evans
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Thumbs up Positive Aikido

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
200 - That is just the beginning push-ups on the back of the wrists with fingers pointing inwards - then try with fingers pointing outwards - when you start to feel a little confident try someone kneeling or sitting on your back - good for the wrists - fore-arms - mind.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com
Thanks. I've just purchased the "Positive Aikido" and have enjoyed your web site and news of Rik and Jay.

One of the insights I've had in a recent five-day Zen sesshin, during rest times in between nine zen meditation sits a day, was that I want to focus more on fitness and budo (and less time on surfing and mountain biking, and eliminate golfing) while also keeping it challenging for our son to strangle me out too easily, using BJJ sport rules (he's not an accomplished 'stand-up' 'fighter', yet).

Osu, with a bow.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 08-22-2012 at 01:37 PM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:10 PM   #130
Riai Maori
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Hit or be hit, that is the question?

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:00 AM   #131
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

You also have to learn how to take a punch. And not rely on the 'authorities' in times of crisis!
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:29 AM   #132
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Someone get Gandalf! The thread-necromancer has returned.

More seriously: I find the "on the streets" questions increasingly bizarre as time goes on. I think budo should remember the "bu" part of their name, but that's more a matter of the art's internal integrity than a need for combat techniques off the mat.

That said, if someone demanded that I explain how to use aikido techniques in a "real fight", I'd say the following.

(1) Grab a weapon. Any weapon. Any object. Congratulations: your striking power has likely just increased more dramatically than it would after several years of the most brutal muay thai training.
(2) Strike the person hard with your weapon.
(3) Repeat step 2 as needed. The main thing you need to be concerned about would be this imaginary adversary preventing you from continuing to repeat step 2, e.g. by grabbing your wrist. In such an eventuality, I would hope that the application of aikido technique is not completely unfathomable.

But yeah. I hesitate to even participate in such a discussion.

"Using aikido in a live-training, unscripted environment" is a discussion I'll readily have. "How to use aikido on the streets" is a question that I feel quite awkward engaging with.

See also:

Brett Kaywood: Self Defense

Yeah, actually, that's my main response.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 12-18-2015 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 12-18-2015, 05:07 PM   #133
JP3
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

So, after the below encounter, my wife is talking to her friend at the location where it took place and the friend says, "Really? Somebody picked a fight with John? Bet that didn't work out well, huh!"

Which sounds kind of cool, in a movie line sort of way, but the situation left a lot to be desired.

The Backstory:

Out with another couple, out to a friend's (same friend as above) bar/nightclub (Problem #1, neh?) to see a 80's & 90's cover band (yeah, yeah we're not 20). Hanging out witht my wife and her friend (not the bar owner, the one we came with), the pair of which ladies were dressed very well and looked great in that "Hey, I want to get to know You sort of way," euphemistically described (read, skin) (Problem #2). Band goes on, music is played, hands are raised, drinks are consumed (Problem #3).

Did I mention that drinks were consumed? Let me be clear on why this is unfortunate. Many beers were consumed by yours truly, who was having a good time, loving the tunes and the company, a great vibe. Bar owners have a predilection to share out free shots, anyone else have that same experience? (Problem #4) So, many multiple beers, several shots, etc.

The Complication:

A party bus from the other side of Houston (big city, nobody knows any of them) shows up at ~10 pm or so, the party bus has an arrangement with the bar owner for unlimited drinks for a flat fee, already paid (Problem #5). The ratio of guys to girls on that bus is about 18,000 to 1. Well... not quite that bad, but at least 4:1, guys:girls (Problem #6.

The Thickening, if you will:

More people we know show up, as it was "supposed" to be a reunion, sort of, of the party crowd from a decade ago, witht he ladies dressed tot he 9's (whatever that means), so now there is a crowd of hot-looking ladies standing around, which is no problem.... until one of the guys suggest a round of some shot or other and about 2/3 of the other guys go off to do that. I skip it, perhaps showing the nly wisdom of the evening.

Problem is, this left me basically alone in the presence of about 5 good-looking ladies.... no other guys around....

So here comes Random Drunk *EXPLETIVE* (We'll shorten that to RDMF) over, being really friendly, smiling, etc. He says, "Hey man, you're really lucky!"

Me: "What?" (It's loud, remember. Plus, I am definitely beyond the Texas intoxication limit for driving, let's just admit that, too)

RDMF: "Yeah, man... you're really lucky."

Me: "Oh! Sure, OK I guess. Thanks!"

RDMF: "No, I mean that you're really lucky to be standing over here with all these girls and my boys and I are trying to talk to them and they'e being bitches."

.... typically at this point, when non-blasted, I understand that we are already past Stage 1, Stage 2 and possibly Stage 3 of the "I'm trying to start a fight with you" ritual, but see above explanation regarding alcohol intake.
Me, reaching out a hand to reassure the guy by touching his shoulder (Problem #7): "No, dude.... all these girls are married. The blonde is my wife and..."

Predictably (for the sober - and anyone who has ever been a bar bouncer, like myself - but keep in mind... sober, which I'm not), RDMF reacts badly to being touched by a male he doesn't know and shoves my hand (the left one, important later) away, yelling, "Don't touch me *MF-er*!"

Me (remember, not sober, so not smart) turns more towards the guy to find out why the cool guy who thought I was lucky "did that weird thing with my hand..." and catch a short quick left to the face.

(Clarification necessary... Since I'm legally blind, I didn't see it at all, of course, but even if I Could see right, wasted = inability to see straight, right?)

But, this is where the 4 decades of training (trying to actually answer the original post's inquiry) reflex/muscle membory kicks in. Didn't realize I had done it until after, but my knocked aside L-hand had gotten back in the game and interposed itself in the retraction line of the RDMF's left, catching it at the wrist while my R-hand drove in to find RDMF's elbow, then pushing up, around, down in a tight little ugly ikkyo (oshi-tai-oshi for my Tomiki folks).

Floor, meet RDMF face, RDMF, meet floor.

About a two-second delay while drunken people close by process and sober bouncers at the edge of room start moving and...

People from both camps push in. I let go of RDMF (straight arm shoulder pin) ... well, I say let go, my buddy yanked me back so it's more like I was forced to let go, people interpose themselves going, "What's going on?!" "What happened?" "Whoa!" "Wow, that was fast!" Yadda-yadda-yadda....

Street situation, though not in a street, and somewhat typical for a typical drunkenly and quite disorderly event. Not a life-threat, sure, but it still DID work.

I'm not so sure it was very aiki in execution, however.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:31 AM   #134
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Fun read - I have a very tough little (short but built like a tank) friend who works as a bouncer (the guy the doormen call when there is an issue) and he swears by oshitaoshi. On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective but it keeps popping up.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:43 AM   #135
JP3
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Peter, I think the reason that, as you said, "On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective" is probably linked to how we generally practice and work with it while dojo training, i.e. nicely and with physical respect with our training partner.

Not that we should not have respect for folks who are out to do us insult or injury, mind... you have to do so, both for your own conscience later on down the road as well as because "The Man is Watching."

When working with the higiwaza we have to keep things safe, and we stress to people that it it is very easy to hurt someone's elbow. I know that to be true, as I've been in class when someone over-torqued something and there was a sepration of the joint... thank goodness that: 1) it wasn't me; and 2) that it didn't fully dislocate, merely separated (if one can say merely in that regard) and no permanent damage was done. It did require about 3 weeks off the mat for the person to begin training. It's this knocking people off the mat that we are protecting ourselves against by not.... what's a good word... how about "insisting" on the technique's execution.

Let me tell you, when the alcohol is flowing, depressing the typical resistance to engaging in conflict, I have no problem with insisting. Ha! I'm really glad I didn't break the guy's arm, that's a bad look.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:14 AM   #136
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Peter, I think the reason that, as you said, "On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective" is probably linked to how we generally practice and work with it while dojo training, i.e. nicely and with physical respect with our training partner.
Well there is that but I think my main issue is getting hold/control of the forearm in a less than controlled environment - its a tough thing to do. You managed to intercept the punch and went from there, my friend the rotweiler used to charge in and use his lack of height to advantage. So it does work and I certainly have more faith in it then shihonage (which always gets shown in street effective videos) but is an even bigger pain to pull off in a resistant and dynamic situation.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:45 PM   #137
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Fun read - I have a very tough little (short but built like a tank) friend who works as a bouncer (the guy the doormen call when there is an issue) and he swears by oshitaoshi. On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective but it keeps popping up.
Wait. Is oshitaoshi ikkajo/ikkyo? That always struck me as a fantastic technique. It's also front-and-center in my "weapons theory of aikido" research; you can find old European fighting manuals that show them doing it.

Even without weapons, it strikes me as a really good, solid technique. People obsess about nikkajo/nikkyo because, in the dojo, it looks really impressive and solid. And nikkajo is a great technique. But that "elbow through the ear"/"stretching out uke's side and shoulder" mechanic underlying ikkajo is so beautiful, and so strong. And the ability to counter resistance by angling into the ura version is so great. Such an elegant technique. I roll my eyes somewhat when MMAers call it "an armbar". Nothing wrong with armbars, but ikkajo is IMO a much more interesting technique than "isolate elbow joint and snap it".

I can't vouch for this quite first-hand, but FWIW, I heard that the Genyokan dojo in Ann Arbor taught an intensive self-defense course, despite Yoshokai normally being all about "aikido is derived from fighting techniques, but it is not a martial art for fighting." (The late Kushida-sensei often spoke quite sincerely on this topic.) As I heard it, they basically just did shomenuchi ikkajo really, really intensely. In Yoshokai, there's the basic takedown (step out, step in, step out), and then there's a "running steps" version (where you just run straight forward without the zig-zag", and then there's a "dropping steps" version where you pretty much just rotate the elbow and go straight down to the mat. Apparently, in this course, they did it somehow even more extremely than "dropping steps". It was just "smash eyes, ikkajo, DOWN."

I also remember a thread here on Aikiweb about how you'd teach "fighting aikido" (whatever that means) to someone in a limited timespan, e.g., 6 months. I think my favorite answer, certainly the most memorable answer I saw, was "4 months of extremely aggressive bokken work, followed by shomenuchi ikkyo".

Looking good on the Wikipedia article, BTW, PRehse.
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:10 PM   #138
JP3
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Peter, let me be clear for the readers, I did not "intercept" that punch, my face did. It happens when you: a) can't see well so don't realize it is inbound; and b) when you have drank too much and so don't realize it is inbound. *snort*

What happened was that my left (generating this from the actual execution, which I do remember) had snagged the guy's L-hand, and I must have managed to get my hand around to the outer part of his wrist as my R-hand got to his arm, located the elbow and the technique fired.

But.... to say I intercepted the punch is a bit... ahh... inaccurate. Intercepted is such an... intentional word.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:46 AM   #139
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Peter, let me be clear for the readers, I did not "intercept" that punch, my face did. It happens when you: a) can't see well so don't realize it is inbound; and b) when you have drank too much and so don't realize it is inbound. *snort*

What happened was that my left (generating this from the actual execution, which I do remember) had snagged the guy's L-hand, and I must have managed to get my hand around to the outer part of his wrist as my R-hand got to his arm, located the elbow and the technique fired.

But.... to say I intercepted the punch is a bit... ahh... inaccurate. Intercepted is such an... intentional word.
Like I said fun read.

Paul - like I also said I like the technique - it definitely has its own power - just getting into a position where it can be applied takes some doing.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-22-2015, 06:28 PM   #140
JP3
 
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Re: Aikido in a street situation

Peter, as you said, "just getting into a position where it can be applied takes some doing." Well... we can say that abut just about any specific technique, can't we.... the "magic" if you will, lies in having a technique simply appear for you from the catalog, right in the position you happen to be with the uke/bad guy, right when the situation happens, eh?

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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