Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-20-2012, 12:59 PM   #1
James Sawers
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
James Sawers's Avatar
Dojo: Oak Park Aikikai, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Source of Internal Power?

I'm pretty new to this site, but have been reading with interest the ongoing discussions some are having re Internal Power Systems. My answer may already be buried somewhere in all the various threads over time, but can anyone please tell me the source of this Internal Power? Are we talking about "ki", "chi", whatever, or just some "non-ki", physical skill set?

Thanks......

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 01:11 PM   #2
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 697
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
I'm pretty new to this site, but have been reading with interest the ongoing discussions some are having re Internal Power Systems. My answer may already be buried somewhere in all the various threads over time, but can anyone please tell me the source of this Internal Power? Are we talking about "ki", "chi", whatever, or just some "non-ki", physical skill set?

Thanks......

Evidently one must look in the non-aikido section ...

Buy Ellis Amdurs "Hidden in Plain Sight" (aka HIPS). Read evertyhing posted by Mike Sigman and Dan Harden (despite the appearences they are both chasing the same dragon).

The source is inside you. Work to find it. One cannot catch that fish by trolling.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 01:58 PM   #3
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 169
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

the Source of Internal Power begins with the will power that does pushups everyday, reaching 200+ continuous push ups on your wrists or finger tips, just to warm up for aikido.

trolls can be dealt with by shining the (sun)light of truth or by ignoring them.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 05:42 PM   #4
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Why do we think this is a troll?

My understanding of IS is that there's no mysticism in it. It's about using the mind to organize the body in ways that don't depend on muscular strength. Instead it depends on connecting the body internally (possibly through the fascial connective tissue) so that the whole power of of the body can be delivered at any point. Ki may be a useful visualization tool whether or not it has physical reality.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 05:49 PM   #5
James Sawers
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
James Sawers's Avatar
Dojo: Oak Park Aikikai, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Hugh:

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Your answer certainly has helped me.

As a newbie here I feel that I have jumped into the middle of a conversation that I don't have a full understanding of the terms being used. So, was just seeking some clarity so that I could follow the discussions better.

Thanks.....Jim
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 06:34 PM   #6
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

The Ki Wars have been going on for a very long time. Those who lived through them are apt to interpret an innocent question as a not-so-innocent attempt to reignite them.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 10:48 PM   #7
James Sawers
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
James Sawers's Avatar
Dojo: Oak Park Aikikai, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

It's a big Aikido World out there. The longer I am in it, the less I seem to know. Out of all the IP/IS names I've seen mentioned here on this site, I only recognized one, Ikeda Sensei. I had the opportunity to attend one of his seminars a few years ago. Interesting stuff. As far as I know, there is not too much of this kind of training in my area, so I have not been able to follow through with additional type training. Hence my interest here when I see a discussion revolving around this.

Thanks....
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 07:02 AM   #8
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,931
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
Out of all the IP/IS names I've seen mentioned here on this site, I only recognized one, Ikeda Sensei. I had the opportunity to attend one of his seminars a few years ago. Interesting stuff. As far as I know, there is not too much of this kind of training in my area, so I have not been able to follow through with additional type training. Hence my interest here when I see a discussion revolving around this.

Thanks....
if you hang around aikiweb for awhile you will see two camps. one camp views IP as a spirit kind of thing as in a strong will, for example, got shot but still continue to move forward or a more spiritual type of thing. one camp views IP as a physical skill, a way to use your body for efficiently, that can be trained. often, you will see both camps trying to argue their points about IP, which often be hilarious, at least to me.

Since you have attended one of Ikeda Sensei seminar, then you know that he didn't really teach techniques at seminar. he usually taught the IP/IS stuffs, then related it to aikido movement. he separated the aikido into two categories: aikido movement and aikido technique. aikido movements are the ikkyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, and so on. aikido technique is the IP/IS, the thing that makes the aikido movements worked. he often picked the biggest ukes (sometimes multiple of them) to demonstrate his point, for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI

Because his, Ikeda Sensei, english isn't as good and IP/IS topics are rather confusing, it's very hard to learn from his approach. you will need some outside help for that, just as Ikeda sensei got the ideas from Ushiro sensei (a karate teacher). outside help included Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Akuzawa Minoru and one of his student Rob John, Ushiro sensei, Howard Popkin, big names in Chen taichi, and so on. you will find a bunch of followers of the above folks around the world. their numbers are small but growing. you started to wonder, hey, how come all these guys are non-aikido folks and what i possibly learn from them to make my aikido "worked". the answer, Ikeda sensei got the stuffs from Ushiro sensei and took his aikido into another dimension. IP/IS skill isn't martial arts specifics. it's a general body skill. learn able, train able, do able. if you pay attention to the event listing here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80 you will find the various names shown up. good luck.

btw, it will take a lot of works, mostly solo, and time, which required some endurance spirit which is the other side of the camp.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 08:03 AM   #9
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if you hang around aikiweb for awhile you will see two camps. one camp views IP as a spirit kind of thing as in a strong will, for example, got shot but still continue to move forward or a more spiritual type of thing. one camp views IP as a physical skill, a way to use your body for efficiently, that can be trained. often, you will see both camps trying to argue their points about IP, which often be hilarious, at least to me.

Since you have attended one of Ikeda Sensei seminar, then you know that he didn't really teach techniques at seminar. he usually taught the IP/IS stuffs, then related it to aikido movement. he separated the aikido into two categories: aikido movement and aikido technique. aikido movements are the ikkyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, and so on. aikido technique is the IP/IS, the thing that makes the aikido movements worked. he often picked the biggest ukes (sometimes multiple of them) to demonstrate his point, for example, in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI

Because his, Ikeda Sensei, english isn't as good and IP/IS topics are rather confusing, it's very hard to learn from his approach. you will need some outside help for that, just as Ikeda sensei got the ideas from Ushiro sensei (a karate teacher). outside help included Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Akuzawa Minoru and one of his student Rob John, Ushiro sensei, Howard Popkin, big names in Chen taichi, and so on. you will find a bunch of followers of the above folks around the world. their numbers are small but growing. you started to wonder, hey, how come all these guys are non-aikido folks and what i possibly learn from them to make my aikido "worked". the answer, Ikeda sensei got the stuffs from Ushiro sensei and took his aikido into another dimension. IP/IS skill isn't martial arts specifics. it's a general body skill. learn able, train able, do able. if you pay attention to the event listing here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80 you will find the various names shown up. good luck.

btw, it will take a lot of works, mostly solo, and time, which required some endurance spirit which is the other side of the camp.
And now for some blatant commercialism......

Ushiro Sensei will be Seattle, Washington this weekend! For more information, you can contact Josh Drachman at jdrachman1@juno.com

This is an excellent opportunity for Aikidoka to try and discern why Ikeda Sensei thinks so highly of Ushiro Sensei's teachings. I will obviously be in attendance, so people can see in person what cruel, heartless person I am.... .

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 08:46 AM   #10
DodgingRain
 
DodgingRain's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

My understanding of so called 'internal power' is limited, but I have heard it invovles methods of reconditioning the tendons and ligaments throughout the body; connecting and strengthening them throughout the body according to that art's specific applications.

As far as I know, there are very limited modern methods for specifically exercising the tendons/ligaments network throughout the body. Many older traditions with high level physical culture (martial arts / yoga) had methods specifically for developing and strengthening these systems, each art with their own distinct variations according to their art's body method/techniques/applications.

Ancients did not have the vocabulary for this network of tendons/ligaments, hence the "qi/chi/ki" paradigm (highly open to misinterpretation) was used to convey this concept with varying results.

Last edited by DodgingRain : 08-21-2012 at 08:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 09:04 AM   #11
DodgingRain
 
DodgingRain's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

There are many other aspects of 'internal power' that are emphasized more or less depending on the art - ground connection, spiraling, use of the mind/intent in very specific ways, breath use, etc. but in my opinion, all of these also depend on the restructured reconditioned tendon/ligament network.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 09:15 AM   #12
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,931
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
Brett Zimmerman wrote: View Post
There are many other aspects of 'internal power' that are emphasized more or less depending on the art - ground connection, spiraling, use of the mind/intent in very specific ways, breath use, etc. but in my opinion, all of these also depend on the restructured reconditioned tendon/ligament network.
this is true. there are many approaches to IP/IS. not all are equal. depends on people's inclination. some method worked better for some, but not to others, and vice versa. finding the one that is right for you, in itself, is an exercise in frustration. perseverance. btw, in away, that is a filtering mechanism to see if you have what it takes or not.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 10:56 AM   #13
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 697
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
Brett Zimmerman wrote: View Post
My understanding of so called 'internal power' is limited, but I have heard it invovles methods of reconditioning the tendons and ligaments throughout the body; connecting and strengthening them throughout the body according to that art's specific applications.

As far as I know, there are very limited modern methods for specifically exercising the tendons/ligaments network throughout the body. Many older traditions with high level physical culture (martial arts / yoga) had methods specifically for developing and strengthening these systems, each art with their own distinct variations according to their art's body method/techniques/applications.

Ancients did not have the vocabulary for this network of tendons/ligaments, hence the "qi/chi/ki" paradigm (highly open to misinterpretation) was used to convey this concept with varying results.
Nope. Tendons and ligaments can be strengthed in the usual weight training, plyometrics, etc stuff 'normal' athletics. IP/IS/aiki is something different. The 'ancients' do indeed have a vocabulary for both internals and externals.

Yi jin jing aka "muscle/tendon changing classic" for example contrast with (actually lost text) xu sui jing aka "bone marrow/brain washing classic" for the basic ancient dichotomy of external versus internal.

None of this matters until you find someone able to manifest 'unusual strength' and who can and is willing to teach it to you.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 12:42 PM   #14
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Nope. Tendons and ligaments can be strengthed in the usual weight training, plyometrics, etc stuff 'normal' athletics. IP/IS/aiki is something different.
FWIW, I think Brett was using "tendons and ligaments throughout the body" as a catchall for the actual physical aspects of IS/IP that have to be conditioned and not using it in the sense of normal athletics and/or strength and conditioning.

Last edited by chillzATL : 08-21-2012 at 12:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 01:59 PM   #15
James Sawers
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
James Sawers's Avatar
Dojo: Oak Park Aikikai, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Source of Internal Power?

I appreciate all the posts and everyone taking the time to respond, especially as this seems to be an old point of discussion.

I have looked at all the info offered (briefly, in some cases, but will go over it all in time) and watched some videos of Ushiro Sensei. Interesting. I am a Nidan in Aikido (Birankai) and have been practicing for about 15 years, not long by aikido standards, dabbling in a few other arts along the way, but I seem to have reached a plateau in my training. If nothing else, this has given me a new and different direction to consider in my training.

Again, thanks....

In good practice.....

Jim......
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
Saotome Sensei Internal Power Training Exercise George S. Ledyard Training 7 07-22-2009 12:38 PM
Power and Compassion bkedelen General 32 06-28-2008 06:14 AM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
why focus on internal power Mary Eastland General 175 03-06-2008 01:08 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:43 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate