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Old 08-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #126
Keith Larman
Location: California
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

I think we also have to be careful about a few things. It is one thing entirely to have a big tent with lots of different stuff underneath. The problems arise when there are issues of fact in dispute. We all have some responsibility to some extent or another to maintain some level of integrity within our arts. And when someone comes along who, well, just makes stuff up, provides self-serving and, well, absolutely wrong definitions of widely used terms in a language he or she clearly does not understand, utilizes what is at best misleading argumentation and at worst totally fallacious reasoning, and then asserts the validity of those things loudly and frequently, well, I think there is merit to challenging those things. I'll avoid current personalities, but use as an example Mark Tennenhouse of years ago. Those of you who remember he was a fella who had all the answers and it ended badly with him demonstrating a woeful lack of knowledge. It made sense that he felt Aikido needed fixing because apparently *his* aikido was in dire need of fixing. Anyway, he was a loud, constant force on-line. Opinionated and very, very sure of himself. Up until he ran smack dab in to a reality check.

Now that was a particularly ugly incident and hard to watch unfold. But... There are those who post occasionally who remind me greatly of that "type", at least with respect to their proclaimed bravura. And given the often glaring disconnect between what's posted, what is being professed, and what most everyone else was taught/what others know by direct experience, I think it is incumbent upon us to not allow those things to go unchallenged. But... It often makes for more ugliness because the simple fact is that someone is, well, wrong. Not just a difference of opinion, but deluded or fantastically ignorant. I just don't really know if there is any way around that.

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:26 PM   #127
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

And as an aside, I dropped some dried blueberries in to some really good melted dark chocolate and spread it thick on a sheet last year. Once it set I broke it up in to pieces. I cannot tell you how lovely that was paired with the little bit of 1990 Ch. Montrose left after dinner... Some experiences leave an indelible mark... Sigh...

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:40 PM   #128
Rob Watson
Location: CA
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
but use as an example Mark Tennenhouse of years ago
Let's not forget to give credit where cerdit is due. Mr. Tennenhouse did in fact show up to walk his talk.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #129
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
And as an aside, I dropped some dried blueberries in to some really good melted dark chocolate and spread it thick on a sheet last year. Once it set I broke it up in to pieces. I cannot tell you how lovely that was paired with the little bit of 1990 Ch. Montrose left after dinner... Some experiences leave an indelible mark... Sigh...
Oh Keith..... Tears are coming to my eyes and drool down the side of my mouth just thinking about a 1990 Chateau Montrose with some blueberry and chocolate..... I look forward to the day that we can sit down after some good old-fashioned training and enjoy a delicious meal paired with a great bottle of wine!

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:00 PM   #130
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Let's not forget to give credit where cerdit is due. Mr. Tennenhouse did in fact show up to walk his talk.
Robert:

Mr. Tennenhouse did show-up. I was one on the people who experienced that "love fest." It is sad when one's delusions crash into the pavement of reality. The credit to show up was unfortunately not enough to help him out of the big hole that he dug for himself. His talk ultimately did not walk well, but kudos to the courage and integrity it took to show up and ultimately come face-to-face with another reality. It is unfortunate that his "lesson" is not taken to heart by some other people, but such is life....

That experience was a minor blip in what was a very successful Aiki Expo for those who attended and trained with a great bunch of diverse martial artists. There were so many people there who could walk the talk, and so many of us eager people who soaked up all of that great learning.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #131
Keith Larman
Location: California
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Let's not forget to give credit where cerdit is due. Mr. Tennenhouse did in fact show up to walk his talk.
Oh, of course, he did show up. I think he was sincere although quite evasive about his experience and training. But I do think he sincerely believed what he was saying. It just didn't work out when he finally got on the mat with others and crossed hands.

So I do give him credit for that aspect. I also give him credit for the fact that he stopped posting. Maybe he's still out there grousing about it, but in the end I think it worked out. By all account in person he didn't know what he was doing and was out of his depth.

So going back I think those who challenged him on-line, those who engaged him, those who said "Now wait a minute..." were vindicated in a sense. Some things you just can't leave alone. I do agree with Dr. Goldsbury's quote about timing, but I also think that sometimes the time is now. With silly stuff, with insignificant stuff, with stylistic stuff, nah, no reason to comment. There are many fluffy posts here that I don't post to because a) huh? and b) obviously since I don't get it I shouldn't post. But when I *do* "get it", I do know the terms, I do know what they're saying, and what they're saying is absolutely contrary to what I think I know, well, that sometimes requires a follow-up. And I think sometimes it gets to a point where you have to say "No, that's just stupid. It's not what the word means. It's not what the man said. You can't just make things up to fit the world you want to have."

Tennenhouse tried to walk his talk. He didn't get very far. Others are much happier pontificating from behind a monitor as I am now. But since some will continue to pontificate endlessly from the relative anonymity others will feel compelled to say "Now hold on there a minute, sparky..." when things get a little too far away from reality. Which is as it should be even if it is uncomfortable for the guests.

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Old 08-20-2012, 06:47 PM   #132
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Thanks to those who responded to my posts. Mr. Larman has left me with not much to say that wouldn't restate what he's said better, so I won't try.

The thing to remember here is that the AikiWeb community is, in fact, a community. It's not a virtual, words-on-screen, it-doesn't-really-matter, pretend environment. I've studied communities like this for real and one commonality is that there's no distinction between the on- and off-line. People meet online, set up a real-world meeting, and become friends; people develop friendships in the real world, move away from each other, and continue their relationship online.

So the big tent is fine, but your claims have to be honest on their own terms. (Not necessarily on my terms.) That's what this community is about. People challenge your claims because you're talking about something that matters to them. Otherwise the community devolves into a gossip board.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #133
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Thanks to those who responded to my posts. Mr. Larman has left me with not much to say that wouldn't restate what he's said better, so I won't try.

The thing to remember here is that the AikiWeb community is, in fact, a community. It's not a virtual, words-on-screen, it-doesn't-really-matter, pretend environment. I've studied communities like this for real and one commonality is that there's no distinction between the on- and off-line. People meet online, set up a real-world meeting, and become friends; people develop friendships in the real world, move away from each other, and continue their relationship online.

So the big tent is fine, but your claims have to be honest on their own terms. (Not necessarily on my terms.) That's what this community is about. People challenge your claims because you're talking about something that matters to them. Otherwise the community devolves into a gossip board.
Agree +1, number one great post. Yup ! (I´m not kiddin´)
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:26 AM   #134
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
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Re: Aikiweb as a "Big Tent"

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Robert:

Mr. Tennenhouse did show-up. I was one on the people who experienced that "love fest." It is sad when one's delusions crash into the pavement of reality. The credit to show up was unfortunately not enough to help him out of the big hole that he dug for himself. His talk ultimately did not walk well, but kudos to the courage and integrity it took to show up and ultimately come face-to-face with another reality. It is unfortunate that his "lesson" is not taken to heart by some other people, but such is life....

That experience was a minor blip in what was a very successful Aiki Expo for those who attended and trained with a great bunch of diverse martial artists. There were so many people there who could walk the talk, and so many of us eager people who soaked up all of that great learning.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Oh, of course, he did show up. I think he was sincere although quite evasive about his experience and training. But I do think he sincerely believed what he was saying. It just didn't work out when he finally got on the mat with others and crossed hands.

So I do give him credit for that aspect. I also give him credit for the fact that he stopped posting. Maybe he's still out there grousing about it, but in the end I think it worked out. By all account in person he didn't know what he was doing and was out of his depth.

So going back I think those who challenged him on-line, those who engaged him, those who said "Now wait a minute..." were vindicated in a sense. Some things you just can't leave alone. I do agree with Dr. Goldsbury's quote about timing, but I also think that sometimes the time is now. With silly stuff, with insignificant stuff, with stylistic stuff, nah, no reason to comment. There are many fluffy posts here that I don't post to because a) huh? and b) obviously since I don't get it I shouldn't post. But when I *do* "get it", I do know the terms, I do know what they're saying, and what they're saying is absolutely contrary to what I think I know, well, that sometimes requires a follow-up. And I think sometimes it gets to a point where you have to say "No, that's just stupid. It's not what the word means. It's not what the man said. You can't just make things up to fit the world you want to have."

Tennenhouse tried to walk his talk. He didn't get very far. Others are much happier pontificating from behind a monitor as I am now. But since some will continue to pontificate endlessly from the relative anonymity others will feel compelled to say "Now hold on there a minute, sparky..." when things get a little too far away from reality. Which is as it should be even if it is uncomfortable for the guests.
I mean't to contrast Mr. Tennenhouse with those who talk but do not and will not walk. I never implied Mr. T. could walk the talk.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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