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Old 08-15-2012, 03:23 PM   #76
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Hi Keith:

I like what you said about testing. Ki testing is a process. Some people can be tested quite strongly and are fine, others must be given more leeway.

Now during technique I believe that uke should only fall if their balance is taken. Sometimes that causes problems when I think a student should be somewhere they are not. I do fall sometimes when I am not thrown because I am big and seem to be intimidating to some students. I am reminded by my instructor that it is not up to me to determine where a student is in their process.

 
Old 08-15-2012, 04:11 PM   #77
Basia Halliop
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...
 
Old 08-15-2012, 04:42 PM   #78
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...
Test to the point of success. Validate success. This causes growth. That doesn't equal never having someone fail. It's not even in the same ball park.

It's a matter of understanding what success is.

Test to limits, yes. Improve on those limits, yes. Continue succeeding yes. Build.

During practice of anything a person fails many times, that's why it's called practice.

You don't need to test to it then do you? It's already built in and acknowledged by the understanding of what practice is.

That's why I think 'testing to the point of failure' is a nonsense. Negativity wants you to fail. Why promote it?

There are those who encourage others and flow from the view of "you can" then there are those who are out to prove "you can't" and enjoy failure.

I've met many who were tested to failure and gave up. Bad teaching.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 04:46 PM   #79
DH
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Going back to the earlier discussion of 'testing to the point of failure', I guess I don't understand the value or purpose of never having something 'fail'? How can you know where the point you 'fail' even is unless you play around the edges and occasionally go there so you can clearly see the difference between what action of yours leads to success vs what action leads to failure?

I get the motive behind practicing success much more often than failure, because practice makes permanent and you want to build the habit and muscle memory of doing it right. So, yeah, you want loads and loads of successful practice if you can.

But without ever seeing what _doesn't_ work, how can you really understand what does? They exist in contrast to each other... to me it seems too much like trying to read print but the print and the page are the same colour -- how do you know the shape of the print and what information it contains if you have nothing to contrast it with?

To give the word 'failure' so much emotional baggage seems to me sad and potentially damaging... it's just information and need not have any 'bad' feeling attached to it unless you choose to put it there. If you shut yourself off from information then IMO that's no good...
I would agree completely.
Naturally your admonition of playing the edges after making a success of something is admirable. As one person just reminded me on the phone....we have never seen an Aikido teacher-to include over a dozen shihan- be capable of surviving or successfully pulling off our first warm up exercise, much less any real stress. That brings us back to the OP and this notion of Uke/ nage getting stronger.
Since 1,100 of us have never seen a shihan 6th dan or 52 go dans succeed...I was wondering just what the heck the OP meant?
I have seen the videos of many of these ki people, so I know how weak these people are-hence the ki wars, so I was asking what this notion of stronger really meant?
Add to that stronger against who?
Stronger for what?
Some chose to be presumptuous and assume I meant MMA. Fighting was not my point, but rather serious stress testing.
But again, as was pointed out to me, we have never seen any of these people pull off even a minor exercise we do, so I am not talking about going to even our medium level testing, much less advance work or actually knowing how to fight with it.
So again who is getting stronger with what?
How?
Against who?
Doing what?

Our model
Start cooperatively
Gradually raise the bar
reach a point of sustaining yourself against solid muscular force
start over
Soft power to soft power, learn to change the change with aiki. If your ki is weaker you lose.
Pressurize with grappling /MMA until you can fight with it freely.

If this notion of "everyone is supposed to be a success" were true doesn't that lead you back to zero? It sure as hell isn't budo, or any form of Aikido that; Ueshiba, Shirata, Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Inue, or Tohei was involved in. It's just going to fail against anyone who practiced a budo.
It always has and it always will. Some just want to be recognized as having equal worth when they couldn't remain vertical on a mat.
What's up with that?
Graham says "Give everyone an "A" for trying."
No thanks...I want people who can remain vertical against a capable martial artist.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-15-2012 at 04:50 PM.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 05:03 PM   #80
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

I met a man trying to improve his Aikido, I helped him, he improved.

I met a man trying but lost, I helped him, he improved.

I met a man so scared of failure he was scared to try. I helped him, he improved.

Yes indeed, an 'A' for trying, all it needs is someone who understands and can help.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 05:13 PM   #81
DH
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sounds to me like Tohei said that Ueshiba was talking to other people.

Best,

Chris
Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 05:22 PM   #82
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan
I'm just busy keeping immovable - my wife calls it being stubborn

The whole thing reminded me of one of my favorite movies!

http://youtu.be/qZdQvqsZ4og

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 05:28 PM   #83
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
State a history that is untrue
Support it with rhetoric
Misstate dates and facts
Invent thing's out of whole cloth
Mistranslate known sayings
Come back later as if it never happened and use the correct terminology of those who corrected you.......
With no acknowledgment of preceding events.
Its called dialogue on the internet.
Dan
Nobody does it better than you.

dps
 
Old 08-15-2012, 05:47 PM   #84
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Bud
I hope you continue to offer your quotes....for the rest of the readership.
Incoherent, non-responsive myth making be damned.
Although this:
Ueshiba was a martial artist ..... He visited many a dojo and took what he could from each. No challenges, no put downs, no going around saying how useless so and so was. He visited and did as per instructed. If there was something to learn he stayed a while, if not he politely bowed and left.
......Was one of the funniest -albeit amateurish and ill informed- attempts at myth making I have read in a while. Sounds like a Jacki Chan movie doesn't it?
Dan
"When I used to go to other schools I would never challenge the Sensei of the dojo. An individual in charge of a dojo is burdened with many things, so it is very hard for him to display his true ability. I would pay him the proper respects and learn from him. If I judged myself superior, I would again pay him my respects and return home." (quote)

Look and learn.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 06:35 PM   #85
Chris Li
 
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
"When I used to go to other schools I would never challenge the Sensei of the dojo. An individual in charge of a dojo is burdened with many things, so it is very hard for him to display his true ability. I would pay him the proper respects and learn from him. If I judged myself superior, I would again pay him my respects and return home." (quote)

Look and learn.

Peace.G.
Well, there are a couple of things in that interview that I would question. But most of all, what would you expect him to say about himself in a formal interview?

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #86
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Nobody does it better than you.

dps
Well, that was a very nice sophomoric cheap shot - speaks volumes to your level of professionalism and knowledge associated with the topics generally discussed by the individual you just attacked.

I know that Dan can be harsh in his criticism, but it is what is - it you think he is full of BS and does not know what he is talking about, just go see him - many have and all are still coming back for more. If you are serious about your art, get out of your comfort zone and go see those that can challenge you; no other 'testing' is required - truth is truth.

Greg
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:01 PM   #87
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, there are a couple of things in that interview that I would question. But most of all, what would you expect him to say about himself in a formal interview?

Best,

Chris
No doubt there are. Funny how you doubt he was being truthful. As I said before "I understand Ueshiba"

An honourable man. A straightforward man. A very aware man. A man of dignity. A man of budo who realized true budo is love. A spiritual man.

When questioning results in understanding there is no more question.

Anyway, just me, understanding the man, quoting the man, showing an example of behaviour given by the man, an example ridiculed earlier. But hey, believe what you want.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:03 PM   #88
dps
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Well, that was a very nice sophomoric cheap shot - speaks volumes to your level of professionalism and knowledge associated with the topics generally discussed by the individual you just attacked.

I know that Dan can be harsh in his criticism, but it is what is - it you think he is full of BS and does not know what he is talking about, just go see him - many have and all are still coming back for more. If you are serious about your art, get out of your comfort zone and go see those that can challenge you; no other 'testing' is required - truth is truth.

Greg
The comment was about his past " dialogue on the internet " on this and other forums.
.
Wether I think he full of BS or does not know what he is talking about is your inference.

As far as sophomoric cheap shot, he has done a few of those too.

dps
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:12 PM   #89
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Greg old buddy. How about some love testing. It's just as valid as Ki testing. I mean, it is budo in Aikido.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:12 PM   #90
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

As far as sophomoric cheap shot, he has done a few of those too.

dps
Oh, I don't know about that - a cheap shot is specifically designed to insult without a basis in fact - as stated, Dan can be a bit tactless with his criticism, but it is all based on fact and is not designed to insult - as they say, sometimes truth hurts,

Greg
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:14 PM   #91
DH
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Come on guys!!
The subject matter I have been discussing for 16 years is above
reproach. No one.....not one....in your art has been able to challenge its veracity in person. All you have left is personal attacks... from a distance. Why? There is nothing you can do. Nothing. In person you fail, over and over, time and time again.

Morihei Ueshiba was just another of the greats, in a continuing line of men using Internal power/aiki. It is the foundation of everything your art is. This is why so many in your art are chasing it.
Now we find Ueshiba was all but quoting me in heretofore untranslated works. How did THAT happen?
It wasn't his, it isn't mine....it is well established and it's waiting for us.
Dan
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:14 PM   #92
gregstec
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg old buddy. How about some love testing. It's just as valid as Ki testing. I mean, it is budo in Aikido.

Peace.G.
"Love Testing" - send me some pictures

Greg
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:20 PM   #93
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
"Love Testing" - send me some pictures

Greg
It's upper level stuff. Real Aikido. IHTBF.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:21 PM   #94
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would agree completely.
Naturally your admonition of playing the edges after making a success of something is admirable. As one person just reminded me on the phone....we have never seen an Aikido teacher-to include over a dozen shihan- be capable of surviving or successfully pulling off our first warm up exercise, much less any real stress. That brings us back to the OP and this notion of Uke/ nage getting stronger.
Since 1,100 of us have never seen a shihan 6th dan or 52 go dans succeed...I was wondering just what the heck the OP meant?
I have seen the videos of many of these ki people, so I know how weak these people are-hence the ki wars, so I was asking what this notion of stronger really meant?
Add to that stronger against who?
Stronger for what?
Some chose to be presumptuous and assume I meant MMA. Fighting was not my point, but rather serious stress testing.
But again, as was pointed out to me, we have never seen any of these people pull off even a minor exercise we do, so I am not talking about going to even our medium level testing, much less advance work or actually knowing how to fight with it.
So again who is getting stronger with what?
How?
Against who?
Doing what?

Our model
Start cooperatively
Gradually raise the bar
reach a point of sustaining yourself against solid muscular force
start over
Soft power to soft power, learn to change the change with aiki. If your ki is weaker you lose.
Pressurize with grappling /MMA until you can fight with it freely.
Thank you Dan, I appreciate you taking the time to come back and outline what you meant in more specific terms. I'll answer:

Stronger? Trying to get stronger at using internal strength and by way of that, better at aikido. I didn't say just stronger, but better, because that sensitivity to what the other person is doing is as much aikido as pure strength is, but it uses all the same components. Relaxed connection in me, to the ground, held together with breath and ki and moved at the middle and with intent. You know, all the buzzwords! but working with people who are better than me to the point that I feel comfortable using them and knowing I have some real, felt grasp of them.

how? Various exercises and by getting together with people who are better than me, stronger. Mostly outside of aikido, lots of pushing, pulling, moving with various resistances and trying to keep all of the above things going and together against as much as you can take, paired and solo.

I do feel I get some decent practice out of aikido classes too. Everything there is really designed for my above goals, so it's not too hard, but it is definitely different because of how people respond and we're a style that makes you work and doesn't go through the motions. Even with that, it's still a different kind of resistance, not perfect, but I'm no powerhouse so it's all still good practice for where I'm at. I've got some people there who are interested in this stuff as well so they'll make me work even harder. Even on the uke side there's enough interesting things you can do to make yourself hard to move and actively use the condition and skills to make other people work harder, attacking their center, using the connection to resist, etc, all subtly. That's how I think the art is supposed to be and the progression of skill, but it takes multiple people with some level of those skills and the desire to really build them.

i don't think our progression or what we're working towards is any different, but I only speak for me. . I'd love to know what you're first warmup is, but I won't ask because I know you won't answer. You said fall right?
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #95
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
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I'm just busy keeping immovable - my wife calls it being stubborn

The whole thing reminded me of one of my favorite movies!

http://youtu.be/qZdQvqsZ4og

Best,

Chris
Have you tried telling her that you can't take out the trash because "woman, i'm busy standing on the floating bridge". if not, you should.. and let me know how that goes
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:42 PM   #96
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It's upper level stuff. Real Aikido. IHTBF.

Peace.G.
i like the felt part - cc Phi on the pictures, i know he is into this type of 'higher level' stuff

greg
 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:47 PM   #97
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
No doubt there are. Funny how you doubt he was being truthful. As I said before "I understand Ueshiba"

An honourable man. A straightforward man. A very aware man. A man of dignity. A man of budo who realized true budo is love. A spiritual man.

When questioning results in understanding there is no more question.

Anyway, just me, understanding the man, quoting the man, showing an example of behaviour given by the man, an example ridiculed earlier. But hey, believe what you want.

Peace.G.
People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 07:49 PM   #98
Chris Li
 
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Have you tried telling her that you can't take out the trash because "woman, i'm busy standing on the floating bridge". if not, you should.. and let me know how that goes
That might be too much pressure testing - even by Dan's standards!

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-15-2012, 08:22 PM   #99
graham christian
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris
Ha, ha. Now his Nephew is the 'right' one. Please.......His nephew was also quite a great charachter and co-founder of Aikido.

I think you twist it once again to suit. They had a personal disagreement. Because he didn't consider him to be honourable....ha, ha, good joke.

He certainly didn't find someone to be honourable and we all know who that is.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 08:27 PM   #100
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Re: ki testing...emphasis on both uke and nage getting stronger

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
People rarely speak the whole truth about themselves, especially in Japan. Anyway, there are plenty of concrete examples where the truth has been "shaded".

After all, his own nephew broke off relations because he didn't consider him to be honorable, no matter what he said about himself.

Best,

Chris
And Inue told people why too. Careful, Chris. You're going to ruin the Jackie Chan, Mr. M!iyagi, Ghandi, vision of Ueshiba certain people have!!
"He traveled to many dojo to learn...and partake and where he could learn he did without a word, uplifting them...where could not....he left only his shadow as a blessing...a whisper heard in the night.....Ueshiba.....shhhh!!
At one famous temple he left a single pebble, snatched from a hand....
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-15-2012 at 08:31 PM.
 

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