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Old 07-17-2012, 06:50 AM   #76
genin
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Re: Ordered murder

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Of course.

Just as, by standing by and allowing the massacres to happen, we bear some responsibility for the atrocities in Rwanda. We, as a powerful democratic country, had the ability to act and refrained from doing so.
I used to share that belief, until I realized the logistical and political problems that would've inevitably arisen. The US invasion and occupation of Iraq helped me see that. What precedent would that establish, and how would the rest of the world view us?

It would've taken an invasion of Rwanda and subsequent occupation as a military police state in order to put an end to the violence and atrocities that occurred there, if indeed we could've acted in time. Because all that happened in what, a month? We would've had to have worked fast, with no time to second guess ourselves or weigh the geo-political implications. It would've been the embodiment of the SouthPark creator's "Team America: World Police". That's not a good look.

Then you take something like WWII as an example, which was mainly about defending America and protecting our allies, with saving the Jews coming in at a distant third on the priority list. By the time we mopped up the remaining German resistance and began clearing the concentration camps, many of the Jews had already been extirpated. We didn't exactly "save the day" as the song lyrics say.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:37 AM   #77
Michael Hackett
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Re: Ordered murder

Roger, the precedent was set many years ago. The United States has involved itself in many internal struggles around the world for decades. Central America, Haiti, Lebanon, Grenada, Somalia, the list is seemingly endless. We have the capability of putting forces on the ground in very quick order and the ability to provide for them logistically as well. That doesn't speak to whether we should or not.

If we eliminate the issue of our national interest from the discussion entirely, do we have a moral imperative as an individual nation to step in? From my personal perspective, when we are dealing with the issue of genocide, I think we do when the United Nations won't step up to the plate in an effective manner. If not us, then who?

The precedent has been set. We have the ability and strength. In some cases I believe we have the moral obligation. I don't think that makes us look like "Team America: World Police" at all. If we have the ability to prevent the wholesale slaughter of a people, then I think we should.

Of course we also have the great ability to bungle things and shoot ourselves in the foot too.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:52 AM   #78
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Re: Ordered murder

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Roger, the precedent was set many years ago. The United States has involved itself in many internal struggles around the world for decades. Central America, Haiti, Lebanon, Grenada, Somalia, the list is seemingly endless. We have the capability of putting forces on the ground in very quick order and the ability to provide for them logistically as well. That doesn't speak to whether we should or not.

If we eliminate the issue of our national interest from the discussion entirely, do we have a moral imperative as an individual nation to step in? From my personal perspective, when we are dealing with the issue of genocide, I think we do when the United Nations won't step up to the plate in an effective manner. If not us, then who?

The precedent has been set. We have the ability and strength. In some cases I believe we have the moral obligation. I don't think that makes us look like "Team America: World Police" at all. If we have the ability to prevent the wholesale slaughter of a people, then I think we should.

Of course we also have the great ability to bungle things and shoot ourselves in the foot too.
Yea, I guess you're right. The US has been sticking its nose in other countries business for a long time now. Maybe I was addressing the issue of whether we should or not, as you alluded to.

Our "peace keeping" involvment in Kosovo in the 90s is an example of the US policing a troubled country in an attempt to prevent widespread genocide. Clearly, it's something we are willing to do. I think that the Rwanda conflict happened too fast for us to do anything about it, which was probably the primary factor for our non-involvement.

I do think there is an obligation for EVERYONE to step up in the face of genocide. I think its unfair that the US, of all the 1st world countries, gets the obligation placed squarely on our shoulders. We might as well ask why Great Britain didn't do anything either, ya know?

"If not us, then who?" Yes, that is the question. Nobody else would bother. That speaks very poorly for them. Yet ironically, when we actually do step up and take action based off of a righteous moral imperative, we get demonized and labeled as invaders or parodied as Team America World Police. That's some serious bullshit that we shouldn't have to deal with, especially when at the end of the day we are trying to do the right thing for humanity. Yea, if it's all over oil that's one thing, but even in Iraq, we've spared many civilian lives and provided at least a promise of hope for their future. And to be fair, our allies have helped us in a lot of our benevolent endeavors as well.

Last edited by genin : 07-17-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:02 PM   #79
Michael Hackett
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Re: Ordered murder

You know Roger, I found a little humor in your last paragraph. As I read it, I reflected on my career in law enforcement and can't remember a single time anyone called 9-1-1 and reported they were having a birthday party and invited us to stop by for cake and coffee........just a smaller scale.

Michael
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:49 AM   #80
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Re: Ordered murder

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
You know Roger, I found a little humor in your last paragraph. As I read it, I reflected on my career in law enforcement and can't remember a single time anyone called 9-1-1 and reported they were having a birthday party and invited us to stop by for cake and coffee........just a smaller scale.
I'm pretty sure if anyone did call 9-1-1 to invite cops to their birthday party, cops would definitely show up at their house. And something tells me the cops would not be interested in cake or coffee at that point.

But I can read between the lines. I get your what you're saying..
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:32 PM   #81
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Re: Ordered murder

As patrol officers we used to say "One Aw Shit will wipe out one thousand attaboys", and I think you did get the meaning of my previous post.

Michael
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:08 PM   #82
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Re: Ordered murder

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I used to share that belief, until I realized the logistical and political problems that would've inevitably arisen. The US invasion and occupation of Iraq helped me see that. What precedent would that establish, and how would the rest of the world view us?
Exactly. The point isn't that we should always intervene, it's that we bear the moral responsibility for our actions and for our refusal to act. The standard confession in the Episcopal church asks forgiveness "for what we have done and what we have left undone."

Rwanda was a hard case. There was no local support for our intervention; we had no insight into the culture or history of the locals; there were no economic, historic, or cultural ties that would give us an entree; there was no stable internal group or power center that would align with our intervention. Yet, on the other side, the atrocities were appalling.

Truth is, I think we couldn't have intervened effectively and did right to stay out. But it's a lesser-of-two-evils "right."

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:43 AM   #83
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Re: Ordered murder

The problem with Rwanda is really hindsight is 20/20. There were alot of reasons US didn't intervene, mainly UN mission, political climate at the time, failure to recognize trigger points etc. However, in my current assignment in US Africa Command, I can tell you that the USG has put in many more control measures designed to monitor trigger points and to make decisions faster and more effectively concerning Genocide. the good news, is we recognized the problems of this and we have taken steps in order to allow us to effectively engage on Genocide way before it gets that far.

Can't comment on particular issues, or how it might work in reality, only that there are mechanisms, programs, and infrstructue in place. Not commenting because of secrecy or anything...it is just that I couldn't tell you how it would work until after the fact and we are able to assess the situation.

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Old 07-19-2012, 07:30 AM   #84
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Re: Ordered murder

Let's say that the US swiftly intervened in Rwanda, neutralized the offending skinnies and saved the day for the Tutsis. There would've been no genocide to look back upon for people to say: "How horrible, somebody should've done something." Instead, there would be protests and pictures plastered all over the web of menacing looking marines invading some foreign country that no one can spell or pronounce.

Is it right to step in and save the people? Yes. Would we look bad while doing it? Yes. I'm sure the people whose lives were saved would sleep better at night, but the US military and government would never hear the end of it from our detractors worldwide. Not to mention many of our own citizens. That's a tough spot to be in.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:57 PM   #85
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Re: Ordered murder

I purposely didn't address the issue of incomplete knowledge in my earlier post because I don't think it's relevant. Even with 20/20 hindsight I'm not sure intervention was the right thing, given all the elements working against us that I outlined above.

Compare with the Vietnam situation. Total disaster, agreed? We ended up supporting a corrupt, ineffective government, hated by both sides, driven to commit atrocities at every level, from My Lai to carpet-bombing Cambodia.

And yet, when we left, the situation grew so much worse that the Vietnamese were jumping into boats to escape the country.

So while we were there, we created a bad situation to prevent a horrible situation. We actively stained our hands with blood, then left and stained our hands with blood through inaction. Were we right before, or were we right after?

Myself, I think most of the time we have to let people work out their own shit. Exceptions are when the chances of success are in our favor or the situation is so horrendous that we're willing to take the hit. Iran or Syria? Sorry, no cultural understanding, no neighbors willing to support us and supply it, no ties of culture or history. They're on their own. Kosovo? European, supportive neighbors, long cultural ties. Go for it. North Korea? If China would let us, I'd be in there in a New York minute. Let them rejoin South Korea and within a decade it would be like East and West Germany--what differences remained would be a totally internal matter.

Africa's hard because most of the governments are too corrupt and ineffective to take action, yet they'd unite to condemn action from the outside. A nice counter-example is the ouster of Idi Amin by Tanzania, which shows local action can work when there's the will for it.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:30 AM   #86
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Re: Ordered murder

and until the robots arrive, you have Blackwater and such:

Quote:
"President Bush's 2001 executive order severed this line by transferring to the CIA his unique authority to approve assassinations. By removing himself from the decision-making cycle, the president shielded himself -- and all elected authority -- from responsibility should a mission go wrong or be found illegal. When the CIA transferred the assassination unit to Blackwater, it continued the trend. CIA officers would no longer participate in the agency's most violent operations, or witness them. If it practiced any oversight at all, the CIA would rely on Blackwater's self-reporting about missions it conducted. Running operations through Blackwater gave the CIA the power to have people abducted, or killed, with no one in the government being exactly responsible."
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...n-unit/259856/

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Old 07-20-2012, 01:15 PM   #87
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Re: Ordered murder

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
and until the robots arrive, you have Blackwater and such:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...n-unit/259856/
Which is just a slight permutation of what Reagan did with the Iran–Contra affair."I didn't know, but I should've known, I admit it was wrong, but I'm not responsible. Blah blah blah...." Then somebody else's head rolls and everyone forgets about it once the next scandal or hot topic usurps it in the news headlines. Meanwhile, there's a pile of brown skinned bodies lying in the wake somewhere far away from American soil.

And yet, even with all that, I still view the United States as the "good guy", at least compared to the alternatives. That doesn't say much, but says a lot.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:02 PM   #88
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Re: Ordered murder

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Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
And yet, even with all that, I still view the United States as the "good guy", at least compared to the alternatives. That doesn't say much, but says a lot.
I think it is safe to say that this view is not universally shared.

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #89
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Re: Ordered murder

Roger Flatley wrote:
And yet, even with all that, I still view the United States as the "good guy", at least compared to the alternatives. That doesn't say much, but says a lot.

I think it is safe to say that this view is not universally shared.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- david

Well I really do fear, that if and when another Ron Paul type person gets elected and we effectively go isolationalist in most if not all of our policies, what will be safe to say then?

See Woodrow Wilson,
see the levying of the first taxes to build a navy,
see the Killing Fields of Pol Pot

Personally, I see the colonialism of the British Empire had a better effect on a lot of countries today
then those that were not colonized and are still living in the stone age, or reversing any vestiges of rule given them by the British and have descended back again into chaos. A sovereign nation governed by laws(even those of a dictator, if the laws are just) trumps tribalism every single time as far as the greater good of society is concerned.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:53 AM   #90
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Re: Ordered murder

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
. A sovereign nation governed by laws(even those of a dictator, if the laws are just) trumps tribalism every single time as far as the greater good of society is concerned.
I emphatically disagree. Tribalism worked well for humans for a hundread thousand years. Dictatorships have only been around for a couple thousand years, and they have only produced war, famine, and unhappiness for the masses.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:42 AM   #91
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Re: Ordered murder

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Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I emphatically disagree. Tribalism worked well for humans for a hundread thousand years. Dictatorships have only been around for a couple thousand years, and they have only produced war, famine, and unhappiness for the masses.
Really? So I guess we are a country of 300 million are doing worse than the couple of hundred thousand American Indians in tribes before. I would like some examples of the tribes that saw no periods of famine or war or unhappiness. Dances with Wolves before the calvary arrived , it was not...if that is what you espouse, except for the part where the neighboring tribe is splitting skulls with the Sioux, for whatever reason.
Is is not possible to have unhappy or happy "masses" with a tribe. Tribalism worked well until the neighboring tribe decided it liked your hunting ground better than their own. Then the war and famine came to your doorstep. And please dont seperate the issues, I said dictatorships of just rule and there have been a few, but basically a sovereign nation under just rule ,whether it is a democracy , republic or they have a king. Obviously Idi Amin and Saddam Hussein can be ruled out as unjust, evil rulers.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:44 AM   #92
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Re: Ordered murder

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I emphatically disagree. Tribalism worked well for humans for a hundread thousand years. Dictatorships have only been around for a couple thousand years, and they have only produced war, famine, and unhappiness for the masses.
Tribalism works well for those that are in tribes. It is the rest of the world imposing their values and paradigms on them that cause it not to work well. I could probably also make a good case for benevolent dictatorships as well as being a good solution to the right problem If I had time and the inclination.

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Old 08-06-2012, 11:18 AM   #93
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Re: Ordered murder

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Really? So I guess we are a country of 300 million are doing worse than the couple of hundred thousand American Indians in tribes before. I would like some examples of the tribes that saw no periods of famine or war or unhappiness. Dances with Wolves before the calvary arrived , it was not...if that is what you espouse, except for the part where the neighboring tribe is splitting skulls with the Sioux, for whatever reason.
Is is not possible to have unhappy or happy "masses" with a tribe. Tribalism worked well until the neighboring tribe decided it liked your hunting ground better than their own. Then the war and famine came to your doorstep. And please dont seperate the issues, I said dictatorships of just rule and there have been a few, but basically a sovereign nation under just rule ,whether it is a democracy , republic or they have a king. Obviously Idi Amin and Saddam Hussein can be ruled out as unjust, evil rulers.
Do you think any of those indian tribes had one of their own tribesmen walk into a teepee at midnight and start shooting all of the occupants with arrows, including children? I also don't know what would constitute a dictator of "just rule", as that seems like an oxymoron. If you consider it to be democracies like the U.S, or imperialist empires like Great Britain, then it becomes a much broader definition, and is admittidly not a dictatorship at that point. But like Kevin said, tirbes work well for tribes, not for us civilized folks. And it would take a lot more time, effort, and inclination to explain that further.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:39 AM   #94
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I think had they had more people around, and guns,they would have been more mass killings in a populations.
I think that something you describe in a population of 300 million is less than .00000001 percent of all the unhappiness and killing going on. (something akin to the mass shootings we have just had)
And yes it was a broad definition, but are we asking to go back (tribe)to that or move forward with the current society the way it is set up. And I yes if I was so inclined give example after example of societies brought into the 21 century by those broad definitions of consolidation under leadership as opposed to warring states or tribes, which overall has allowed the human race to prosper.
Qin Dynasty
Shogunate rule
Civil War

Not everything that happened in those instances were good by a long shot, but it did not as you say bring the pestilence, famine, etc. And there was murder , lots of it. But all those societies prospered afterwards. Non assimilation and balkanization of this society may be its downfall. Anti heroism, everyman for himself, everyone his own agenda, etc, is what is being espoused by academia and popular culture nowadays and it is not good for the society whatsoever....
agree to disagree

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Old 08-07-2012, 06:10 AM   #95
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Re: Ordered murder

As far as I can make out, you believe that an occasional bloodletting in the form of a war is a positive (overall) thing for humanity. You support this by saying that societies that survived wars - well, survived wars (or "brought into the 21 century" in your words) and so participate in the move "forward".

Where do you imagine this move "forward" will bring us?

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Old 08-07-2012, 06:24 AM   #96
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Re: Ordered murder

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Where do you imagine this move "forward" will bring us?
It will bring us forward into an era of extreme overpopulation and the continued petroleum-based destruction of our environment in which corruption and suffering reaches a highpoint. Then there will be a dramatic and catastrophic collapse in the human population, and the survivors will revert back to a tribal existence.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:54 AM   #97
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Re: Ordered murder

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
As far as I can make out, you believe that an occasional bloodletting in the form of a war is a positive (overall) thing for humanity. You support this by saying that societies that survived wars - well, survived wars (or "brought into the 21 century" in your words) and so participate in the move "forward".

Where do you imagine this move "forward" will bring us?
No idea, but it is obvious, from certain posts that some have a idealized notion of teepee living(tribal).
That somehow they didnt commit war, or murder on each other. Like some kind of enviromental view that people are whats bad about this planet or dont deserve it or are ruining it. Sheer numbers alone,
of people and people living in relative comfort dictates that consolidated nations and societies do better than tribes. Too which, many have said well the tribes were happy until we bothered them.
That maybe the case. I am not advocating war and bloodletting as a means "to move forward", I am saying it happened, historical fact. Call it ordered murder or whatever you want. Maybe you guys flying the Union Jack should take a look at how much thought went into savinglives in the decision making process of dropping the A bomb on Japan, to save lives on both sides. As a matter of fact , this country is as far as I know, has gone out of its way to avoid collateral damage on a large scale in its warmaking capacity, sacrificing many of our own along the way.Compare that to the Nazis or the Rape of Nanking where the few who would have protested were in fear of their lives and did not, our system promotes such descent and fair mindedness,our biggest problem is we are probably slow to act because of it. Had the Nazis or Japan developed the bomb first there would have been no warning.
Tribe is basically a nation on a much smaller scale, except the information exchange takes place on a much smaller scale, lack of uniformity of language, etc.
What we have now, in this country, is a bunch of special interest groups who want to take the country off in many different directions and the questioning of motives of the governing body is tre chic.
Among them,
The country is a bad country
The governing body has greedy, wrongheaded motives
The country has not tryed to adjudicate its foreing affairs with good intentions and spilled its own blood, for various no good reasons.
There various conspiracies to keep the masses dumbed down, not find cures for cancer, not explore space, not find better ways to feed the billions of people now living here, yet all those things are getting done.
I prefer living now , in the moment , rather than rewriting history, and going back to a tribal society.

You know making lemonade from lemons, and the cat is out of the bag already.

Last edited by akiy : 08-07-2012 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:13 AM   #98
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Re: Ordered murder

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Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
It will bring us forward into an era of extreme overpopulation and the continued petroleum-based destruction of our environment in which corruption and suffering reaches a highpoint. Then there will be a dramatic and catastrophic collapse in the human population, and the survivors will revert back to a tribal existence.
Exactly, the pessimistic the view I was speaking of.
A popular sentiment among environmentalists is that we take 20 percent of the worlds resources and we are only 2 percent of the worlds population.
The only part that is left out is how much we are supporting the rest of the world with food and money.
100 million in Africa alone, the technology given in agriculture alone to China probably outweighs the debt we currently owe them.
It is decidely living not in the moment , but in the future of a bad Mad Max type movie.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:21 AM   #99
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Re: Ordered murder

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
As far as I can make out, you believe that an occasional bloodletting in the form of a war is a positive (overall) thing for humanity. You support this by saying that societies that survived wars - well, survived wars (or "brought into the 21 century" in your words) and so participate in the move "forward".

Where do you imagine this move "forward" will bring us?
No idea, but it is obvious, from certain posts that some have a idealized notion of teepee living(tribal).
That somehow they didnt commit war, or murder on each other. Like some kind of enviromental view that people are whats bad about this planet or dont deserve it or are ruining it. Sheer numbers alone,
of people and people living in relative comfort dictates that consolidated nations and societies do better than tribes. Too which, many have said well the tribes were happy until we bothered them.
That maybe the case. I am not advocating war and bloodletting as a means "to move forward", I am saying it happened, historical fact. Call it ordered murder or whatever you want. Maybe you guys flying the Union Jack should take a look at how much thought went into savinglives in the decision making process of dropping the A bomb on Japan, to save lives on both sides. As a matter of fact , this country is as far as I know, has gone out of its way to avoid collateral damage on a large scale in its warmaking capacity, sacrificing many of our own along the way.Compare that to the Nazis or the Rape of Nanking where the few who would have protested were in fear of their lives and did not, our system promotes such descent and fair mindedness,our biggest problem is we are probably slow to act because of it. Had the Nazis or Japan developed the bomb first there would have been no warning.
Tribe is basically a nation on a much smaller scale, except the information exchange takes place on a much smaller scale, lack of uniformity of language, etc.
What we have now, in this country, is a bunch of special interest groups who want to take the country off in many different directions and the questioning of motives of the governing body is tre chic.
Among them,
The country is a bad country
The governing body has greedy, wrongheaded motives
The country has not tryed to adjudicate its foreing affairs with good intentions and spilled its own blood, for various no good reasons.
There various conspiracies to keep the masses dumbed down, not find cures for cancer, not explore space, not find better ways to feed the billions of people now living here, yet all those things are getting done.
I prefer living now , in the moment , rather than rewriting history, and going back to a tribal society.

You know making lemonade from lemons, and the cat is out of the bag already.
Quote:
I am not advocating war and bloodletting as a means "to move forward", I am saying it happened, historical fact.
Only to the extent that those who survived (or their descendants) are affected by time and move "forward" with it.

Quote:
...how much thought went into savinglives in the decision making process of dropping the A bomb on Japan, to save lives on both sides. As a matter of fact,
This is not the way to demonstrate facts and some do disagree with the "both sides" part. Here is a quote from Truman:
Quote:
"Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans."
Quote:
this country is as far as I know, has gone out of its way to avoid collateral damage on a large scale in its warmaking capacity, sacrificing many of our own along the way.
an excellent opportunity for some examples, presumably nuking Japan is not one of them.

It seems that your values are relative, as long as your interests are served and as long as you're methods are no worse then those of the others, anything goes.

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Old 08-07-2012, 08:57 AM   #100
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
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Re: Ordered murder

David.

Just a little tired of the sanctmonius tone of many flying the union jack and my own flag.
Being self righteous doesnt make you right.
This conversation is bound to degrade into another self serving agenda Blog
Suddenly this has become personal ( liberal tactic) talking about my values.
In saying what has happened in bigger societies happened and the greater good benefited, regardless of motive. Star Trek , the needs of the many Or the needs of the few?
Which is greater?
I am choosing to work with the needs of the many and all there different thoughts
Tribalism is concerned with the needs of the few in the tribe as long as it suits their "relative" needs.
You can cherry pick my posts and history if u like.
I don't think it suits your needs though. The examples in this countries history are rife . And I like others I don't have an inclination to show them. You see what u want, just don't play around with my perception
Just wondering when u would Want to hold hands and sing kumbaya and what effect that will have on some of the problems we face .

Last edited by Garth : 08-07-2012 at 09:04 AM.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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