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Old 07-30-2012, 04:22 PM   #126
Gerardo Torres
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Re: hips and shoulders

Sorry to slightly diverge from the hip/shoulder discussion but...

Recently I've been put in a role where I have to help some fellow practitioners in their training, which is making me think hard about what I say or do in front of them. I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center". Dan has shared some drills that are amazingly good at helping stabilize hips and move from center. This was a game changer for me, and it's great to see some of my fellow practitioners who've struggled for years starting to fix things in a matter of minutes when they follow this model.

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 07-30-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:26 PM   #127
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

Everything has a centre. It has no bottom or top or front etc.

Must be a bagua type thing your referring to I would say.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #128
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Sorry to slightly diverge from the hip/shoulder discussion but...

Recently I've been put in a role where I had to help some fellow practitioners in their training, which is making me think hard about what I say or do in front of them. I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center". Dan has shared some drills that are amazingly good at helping stabilize hips and move from center. This was a game changer for me, and it's great to see some of my fellow practitioners who've struggled for years starting to fix things in a matter of minutes when they follow this model.
Thanks Gerardo. I just want to point out that it isn't my own.
It is certainly a way to both generate soft power, in big weapons but also remain stable and powerful in any art. Moving any other way. ANY OTHER WAY...is simply less efficient and inferior. Provably inferior.
And that...is that.

One after the other, over and over, time and time again.....Aikido teachers of all rank fail to deliver against......Ueshiba's way of moving.
Ueshiba was right.
Oh well.
Dan
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Old 07-30-2012, 05:46 PM   #129
Janet Rosen
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Re: hips and shoulders

When I started having to do kokyudosa sitting crosslegged rather than in seiza I learned in-the-body by necessity the difference between "moving hips" (which I cannot do when planted cross-legged) and "moving center" (which I've been working on moving more effectively for some time and still can't the way I want...but doing slow partnered kokyudosa is a wonderful training tool for it).

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:54 PM   #130
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Sorry the link didn't work. It was simply a screen capture searching for your name on YouTube. The point being nothing relevant shows up. My gripe i have with your message is simply if you have criticism please post something to compare against.
Hello Sir
I am not griping. I am stating facts that I support with my body...in open rooms with shihans in Aikido and MMA guys-who would like nothing more than to prove me wrong.

The internet is the only place there is any debate, as it is the only place the detractors of this material have any sort of voice. In person, they all fail; one after the other, after the other, on and on, month after month, year after year. It's surreal that there is any argument left since so far they have a 100% failure rate. In most sciences, sports, and work environments, that would force a change.
Budo rarely concerns itself with truth or efficiency; it's about kata, preservation and rank. So they simply fail because they fail to really learn and grow. It's just the way it is. Every couple of generations some amazing men (yes Mary, it's been men) show up and shake things up...that's about it. And most of the ones that show up...are outside of traditions or on the fringes, until they start their own.
So, if history is any judge, we migh start looking for the next giants...on the fringes of budo, or outside of budo alltogether. History tells us that there is a good chance- that is where they will be.

Here is a tip
Don't look to authority for truth
Look to truth for Authority

You will be far better off in the end.
Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube
Quote:
To embrace one would first have to observe, correct?
No...one needs to feel and to learn...not observe something they do not understand. In regards to moving from center, and having internal power and aiki? That brings you quickly back to zero...where most budo people are in my opinion
Quote:
Just as an aside,
I don't know why others come to this site, but i don't come here for technical instruction.
If you have to go to the internet for that, time to change schools.
I think you might find that Aikiweb has become the best site on the web to get information on where to find people teaching this material in Aikido. And that is only one reason people come here. Most come for regular Aikido until they discover what aiki was and is and how to train it.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-30-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:01 PM   #131
Chris Li
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube
Plenty of video of O-Sensei floating around - but it doesn't seem to have made it any easier for anybody to get what he was doing.

I just wish that this stuff were easy enough to pick up from watching a video!

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-30-2012, 08:08 PM   #132
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Plenty of video of O-Sensei floating around - but it doesn't seem to have made it any easier for anybody to get what he was doing.

I just wish that this stuff were easy enough to pick up from watching a video!

Best,

Chris
Yup, and many others. Of course we have the ICMA showing and *supposedly* teaching it.. and still...most simply do not do the work.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:29 AM   #133
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The internet is the only place there is any debate, as it is the only place the detractors of this material have any sort of voice.
I haven't engaged in a debate. I did make a request for more information in the form of a...

Quote:
Video
I have no interest in video on how to do this stuff. It is difficult to teach with personal instruction so why put up video that others can stink up the place with, by mimicing movement that they show little understanding of, hence nothing on You Tube

No...one needs to feel and to learn...not observe something they do not understand.
Well I guess most endeavors could start with an observation of something not understood which then sparks an interest to dig further. Understanding the 'how' and recognizing 'something' interesting is happening are two different things.

Quote:
I think you might find that Aikiweb has become the best site on the web to get information on where to find people teaching this material in Aikido. And that is only one reason people come here. Most come for regular Aikido until they discover what aiki was and is and how to train it.
Dan
I don't speak Aikikai so well and many simply invent terminology anyway so it is frustrating to me. It seems simpler to concentrate on the (Yoshinkan) basic movements on the mat and shoot the breeze in the open discussions area. Perhaps my outlook will change in the future.

I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.

Regards,
Anthony
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:31 AM   #134
mrlizard123
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.

Regards,
Anthony
This might help with the fire and water references... then again, it might not depending on our preconceptions and other understandings.

At least it might point a bit more in the right direction, though getting hands on people really is the best way forwards in expanding our understanding, without which our preconceptions can lead us down a wrong path; makes me think of Plato's allegory of the cave in many ways.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:33 AM   #135
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
On video:
Well I guess most endeavors could start with an observation of something not understood which then sparks an interest to dig further. Understanding the 'how' and recognizing 'something' interesting is happening are two different things.
Well, years of watching this and feeling it and seeing it...haven't helped many people has it?
Care to read and meet all of the people who are stupified at why the all the pushing tests he showed even mattered?

Understanding why he was doing those push tests and what they really conveyed is like talking a foreign language to teachers who...oddly enough, themselves, just feel like anyone else on the street. It's all just a mystery to them. After all is said and done we end up with teachers with little to no connection....doing kata, and they still don't know why and how to fix themselves or even that they need fixing.
It's all so sad...and avoidable.

Quote:
I enjoyed the videos of Bill Gleason, and I've seen a few others of him before. But when he starts talking about fire and water I get lost.
Yup. Budo takes research and travel. It always has.
Funny that once again...a guy you don't understand...is taking off and doing things that...well....you don't understand.
I stopped an Aikido shihan (who was also a BJJ teacher) in his tracks in a very public venue. Ya know what he told his friends later? He said what I was telling him and explaining to him was like a....a... foreign language. Concepts and idea he had never heard of before.
So, what breaks the pattern? Observation, and being handed things on a platter never worked....ever. I think only research, travel and doing the work will make the difference.
Kata..is not going to do it. Ten years from now there will be men and women of power in Aikido doing what Ueshiba was doing. And many here will not be able to and will still be here wondering what happened and what people are talking about.
I suspect it's always been this way.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-31-2012 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:07 AM   #136
Rob Watson
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Off hand and off topic and in no particular order of importance we have; Ueshiba, Inue, Tohei, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki. Then, Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc. I am sure I missed people.
Dan
Inue ... is this Inoue Niriaki or Inoue Kyoichi? Someone else?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:28 AM   #137
chillzATL
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Inue ... is this Inoue Niriaki or Inoue Kyoichi? Someone else?
pretty sure he meant Noriaki/yoichiro/any of his numerous names/ Inoue.

Last edited by chillzATL : 07-31-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:58 PM   #138
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

So many opportunities for hands when they stay in front of hips or center or centre and are accessable.

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Old 08-01-2012, 01:36 PM   #139
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
So many opportunities for hands when they stay in front of hips or center or centre and are accessable.
One has nothing to do with the other, as such, any spacial relationship is nonexistent.
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Old 08-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #140
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Hi Dan:
Not sure what you mean by that.
M

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Old 08-02-2012, 12:04 PM   #141
mathewjgano
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I've found that explaining movement (displacement) from the perspective of either front foot or back foot, could imply -- even if it's not meant that way -- that the "other" foot has a diminished or independent role. I prefer the approach where for example if I want to step forward or backwards, both feet/leg/kua are doing something; more specifically, they are doing the same thing but in opposite directions, which combined with whole body connection allows one to "move from the center".
That's a good point, any time we point only to a part of something, in some sense at least, we diminish the whole. So then I suppose that, while suggesting to move forward from the front foot might be a good way to augment movement which is coming too much from the back foot, it's only true until it's overdone in some way, in which case "use your rear foot more" might be the best response.
So, if there's a proper understanding (whatever that might happen to be) already in place to cohesively match the sides of the body to each other, I think it would make sense to use "part-oriented" phrasing.
I would guess that in all IHTBF things (so not necessarily talking about aiki here), "more this," and, "less that" are pretty common because of the real-time corrective descriptions being conveyed throughout the interaction. Another similar example would be "less shoulder," which is something I've been told multiple times everywhere I've trained (albeit I can count them on one hand). So I suppose the question is one of how much supporting information is also given to properly frame the "part-oriented" prescription.
I'm ultimately guessing, but in my own case, pressing forward with the forward foot seems like a good (presently better) way of keeping me from leaning and/or tilting my hips too far forward.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-02-2012 at 12:08 PM.

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