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Old 07-23-2012, 12:36 PM   #76
Gerardo Torres
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Disconnected movement is easy to spot. Endo, Sensei certainly is not disconnected.
I agree that, as Dan mentioned above, one can spot connection or lack thereof. However it's not my place to judge Endo as I've never trained with the man. That said, it's hard to tell as the uke in the video is already collapsing before anything is done to him.

Quote:
Gerardo. I am talking about a certain exercise movement. I think you might be taking it as I am saying this is the way you must move always. Again, did you try what I am talking about?
It's hard for me to fully visualize the exercise you describe. What I can gather is that you try to maintain a relation between shoulder and hips as you move where shoulders are on top of hips, for example as you turn in response to a frontal push; in the process, you study power transfer to the hands. Yes, there are instances in static drills and solo training where I have studied those connections (Chris Li posted a link about harmonies). For example the Aunkai has drills where one is in Mabu and those connections are trained. Kokyu-dosa could be another instance where one studies that.

When I move in aikido, or weapons, I want to move energy - spiral - so the connections are maintained but the hip-shoulder relationship changes; for example, I could have both hips square but by turning at the waist/center the shoulder can be at certain angles. There are also strategic and technical reasons, especially with weapons, why I would not want to keep shoulders over hips as I move. This is similar to the knee on top of foot relation: if we take it literally, we would lock ourselves in a limited range of positions. Again, I understand you were talking about an exercise, but I personally tend to train in a way that informs all my Budo - a unified theory so to speak, so my body is doing the same thing (spiral) whether I'm doing empty handed aikido, weapons, attacking, defending, etc.

Quote:
The ability to move the shoulders as a inde[pemdent joint intrigues me. Uriah Faber uses his shoulders to strike when he has his opponent up against the cage. That made me think.
I didn't really mean to use the should independently. Even if the shoulder is at an angle (not on top) wrt hips everything remains connected in order to move energy in the body.

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 07-23-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #77
Gerardo Torres
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Re: hips and shoulders

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I don't see the movement side of the art as being in any kind of necessary opposition to the internal power / connection side. I really think that taking the basic platform from Daito Ryu and giving it free movement is one of the distinguishing features of the Founder's progression from Daito Ryu, through Aiki Budo, to Aikido. The problem with much post war Aikido was that much of the methodology for the internal side of the art dropped out and what was left was the idea that non-oppositional movement alone was "aiki". Movement Aikido is about avoiding an attack, it isn't "aiki" which is about "joining" not "avoiding".

We do need to focus on developing our own structures properly and understanding how proper connection actually functions. That's the platform. The trick in great Aikido is being able to take that platform and make it movable... at least that's my take on it.
I agree with what you're saying here. The goal is to train that IP/aiki platform, and apply it to our aikido techniques and dynamic movement. The tricky part for me at least is not to regress to disconnected movement, sort of a one step forward, one step backward situation. It's a slow process for me: I have to learn to stand first, then walk, before I can "play" with the IP/aiki platform and put it in full motion.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:09 PM   #78
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Re: hips and shoulders

As the hips turns so does the foot...as the hip turns back so does the foot... I thought all that was a given.

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:14 PM   #79
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Do I get you right:
You are able to see, how Endo sensei feels?
Could you elaborate this?
I experienced it very difficult to see, what he is really doing, while only watching him. I on the contrary learned that there is a lot to know until I can see, what he is doing.
And he often esecially explains what he is feeling and how and why. Because it is not self-explanatory or evident.

But you are right: If want knows, what he is doing inside, one can see it on the outside.
I am surprised you can't see how he feels. I can almost feel it. I don't need to have it explained with words. I have seen enough and felt enough to know it.

Can't you feel when someone has lost their center when you are their nage? Can't you feel when you have lost your center when you are nage? Can't you see how one of your students looks when they have lost their center?

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Old 07-24-2012, 01:40 PM   #80
Basia Halliop
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Sure, but the problem with moving (and this is why O-Sensei didn't teach Ki-no-nagare until San Dan) is that there's so much more stuff happening, so many more variables to account for.
Personally, I don't think that's a universal rule. Some things are easier and simpler with movement -- e.g., riding a moving bike is much easier than making a bike stay in place without moving. For cycling moving is the more basic and fundamental version and staying still is a more advanced skill.

Some things are simpler stationary, some things are simpler moving, some things neither is more basic, they're just different.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:01 PM   #81
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't think that's a universal rule. Some things are easier and simpler with movement -- e.g., riding a moving bike is much easier than making a bike stay in place without moving. For cycling moving is the more basic and fundamental version and staying still is a more advanced skill.

Some things are simpler stationary, some things are simpler moving, some things neither is more basic, they're just different.
Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, but I don't think that really addresses the problem of pedagogy for most people.

With pedagogical discussions ithere's always someone who says "well this guy learned better the other way" - and they'd be right, in a way, because it's always possible to come up with a counter example of someone who learned was successful with a different pedagogy.

OTOH, if you're discussing what works best for the most people in the most cases - it's a different discussion.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-26-2012, 11:30 AM   #82
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am surprised you can't see how he feels. I can almost feel it. I don't need to have it explained with words. I have seen enough and felt enough to know it.
We have breathing excercises I've trained since I practice aikidō. I only understood what's in them when I began to practice a certain form of qi gong. What can be seen from the outside is exactly the same. What happens inside is completely different.

I have a student who is very sensitive, very responsive. I practice with him when I study some stuff I can not yet do with a resisting partner and want to monitor myself.
About two weeks ago we did the "hand at the shoulder" stuff like in the video of Endo sensei. I didn't move on the outside, but I could make my uke loose his balance. By doing something like spiralling. Then by doing something like closing. Then by something like connecting from my center two his center visualizing the connectiong from joint to joint. Then by rotating my shoulder from the shoulder blade. Then by "moving my center up into my shoulder".
A student who started aikidō with me together asked: "Are you doing anything?"
A friend of mine who knows that I am endophil said: "Well, I assume he just applying atari again ;-)"

I have clearly not seen as much and not felt as much like you. When I met Endo I realized that there is something to learn that was different. And that could not be stolen just with the eyes. And by now I can asure you, that there are certain things to be learned to understand what he does. And the chinese stuff is part of this.

Quote:
Can't you feel ... ?
Can't you see ... ?
I can see what I know.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:55 PM   #83
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

We could add hips and centre, hips and feet, hips and knees, hips and centre line etc. Upper and lower body.

I like the upper and lower body differentiation personally. For example you can have the hips turning one way whilst the upper body turns the other.

In fact I would say that a lot eventually is done from the lower, the koshi, leaving those looking at the hands and upper body movement bewildered as to what's being done.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #84
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
As the hips turns so does the foot...as the hip turns back so does the foot... I thought all that was a given.
Actually, that is the one of the best ways to get thrown. It is unfortunate to see so many teachers who still move from the hips, cut from the hips, tie their knees to the hip and their feet to their knees....even "internal power teachers" wobbling on their knees and feet, and.....
All of whom are still absolutely convinced....that they move from their center.
All of which lasts about one minute into meeting someone who actually does.

I was having this discussion with some senior aikido people recently. You could line up a parade of senior Japanese Shihan and one-by-one demonstrate their structural flaws in both movement and how they engage an uke. Moreover, I could get most everyone who has trained and felt ...moving from center, to be able to see it as well. Watching big shot Masters and their own body's reaction to load, and their ukes delayed responses to their movement tells a story of a work in progress, not anything high level as a final model.
As one ICMA Master class teacher said once regarding Dantian and moving from center:
"You cannot pretend to know Dantian. You will be found out by those who do."

Presumption abounds. What I see in Budo, over and over, is a whole lot of people who really don't know much, going off and fooling a lot of people who know less. The internet is worse, where we see so much writing by unqualified people (even shihan) on subjects they actually know little about, engaged in lengthy discussions on things that will not help. Not even one bit.

So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all. I know that it is an unpopular thing to say, but so far...none of you have proved me wrong. Truth and "real soft power" from center is the way we should all be going. Thinking everyone has some skill or some thing that will help, or that we are all equal...is a fools game that only serves to hamper real progress. At some point we need to realize that there is an actual truth and way to both train and do this stuff that is testable.
Dan
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:04 PM   #85
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Re: hips and shoulders

Guess what? Dan, I disagree with you. I bet that is a surprse. . .I hope you are having a lovely summer and all. We are having a seminar the first weekend of August...maybe its time to dig out your hakama.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 07-27-2012 at 01:04 PM. Reason: wrong smiley

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Old 07-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #86
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Guess what? Dan, I disagree with you. I bet that is a surprse. . .I hope you are having a lovely summer and all. We are having a seminar the first weekend of August...maybe its time to dig out your hakama.
Mary
I don't mind that you or Ron disagree. I think you guys are great people.
I would love to come train -with- you guys, but I am teaching my own seminar that weekend.
I remain convinced that were we to meet and train we would laugh, have great fun and hopefully...hopefully, agree on things and maybe become friends.

I could send you my schedule and see if we can find some time to play. Dinner will be on me!!
All the best
Dan
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:21 PM   #87
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all.
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you , although given that it's AikiWeb, it would be helpful if you could select a video of an aikidoka. Pre-WWII, post-WWII, Japanese, non-Japanese, teacher, student... Are you positive that you have not seen even one example on film?

Jim

Last edited by Jim Sorrentino : 07-27-2012 at 03:23 PM.

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:30 PM   #88
hughrbeyer
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Re: hips and shoulders

Seems to me I've seen Dan say good things about some short, bald Japanese guy... dunno if you'd call him exactly an aikidoka, though.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:43 PM   #89
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Seems to me I've seen Dan say good things about some short, bald Japanese guy... dunno if you'd call him exactly an aikidoka, though.
Sounds familiar, but I don't think he posts here.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:37 PM   #90
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

I wonder why some experts can't see. Mmmmm.

I also wonder if they know to any great degree weight underside and what that would look like.

I hear about connecting centre but not much about connecting space or even energy so I daren't mention connecting koshi....Whoops

Peace.G.
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:58 AM   #91
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you , although given that it's AikiWeb, it would be helpful if you could select a video of an aikidoka. Pre-WWII, post-WWII, Japanese, non-Japanese, teacher, student... Are you positive that you have not seen even one example on film?

Jim
Actually, Jim I never said what you are alluding to here. Could you take the time to read what I said and make a response or question based on that and not your own all inclusive "version" of what you think I said?
Off hand and off topic and in no particular order of importance we have; Ueshiba, Inue, Tohei, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki. Then, Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc. I am sure I missed people.
What does that have to do with what I actually did say?
Dan
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:29 AM   #92
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: hips and shoulders

I thought we were in the middle of a discussion of movement involving the hips and shoulders and the relationship of that kind of movement to movement of, and/or from the center/dantien. There was an attempt to use a video of Endo-sensei to facilitate this discussion. You stated:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually, that is the one of the best ways to get thrown. It is unfortunate to see so many teachers who still move from the hips, cut from the hips, tie their knees to the hip and their feet to their knees....even "internal power teachers" wobbling on their knees and feet, and.....
All of whom are still absolutely convinced....that they move from their center. [snip of implicit self-aggrandizing comments]

[snip of reference to anonymous aikido "authorities"] You could line up a parade of senior Japanese Shihan and one-by-one demonstrate their structural flaws in both movement and how they engage an uke. Moreover, I could get most everyone who has trained and felt ...moving from center, to be able to see it as well. Watching big shot Masters and their own body's reaction to load, and their ukes delayed responses to their movement tells a story of a work in progress, not anything high level as a final model. [snip of another reference to an anonymous authority, this one from internal Chinese arts]

[snip of explicit self-aggrandizing comments]

So far, I have not seen a single person from here, appearing on a video moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all. [Emphasis supplied] [snip of yet more self-aggrandizing comments] Truth and "real soft power" from center is the way we should all be going. [snip of irrelevant straw man argument] At some point we need to realize that there is an actual truth and way to both train and do this stuff that is testable.
In response to your comment above, which I placed in bold type, I asked you to post a video of an aikidoka which shows a good example of that aikidoka
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
moving from or connecting to anyone..........using their center well at all.
Please explain how my request was not a reasonable response to what you wrote --- and please remember to post a video that responds to my request.

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:14 PM   #93
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
So post a video which you believe shows these things. It doesn't have to be you
Jim
If only Dan would step on our collective toes causing the tops of our heads to pop open. Then he could dump in his wisdom.

Instead we have to rely on youtube I suppose:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8d...mNBNXlfNmE3b2M

It is odd though, someone so adept at criticizing the videos of others, would be so shy posting videos of himself.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:26 PM   #94
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
I thought we were in the middle of a discussion of movement involving the hips and shoulders and the relationship of that kind of movement to movement of, and/or from the center/dantien. There was an attempt to use a video of Endo-sensei to facilitate this discussion. You stated:

In response to your comment above, which I placed in bold type, I asked you to post a video of an aikidoka which shows a good example of that aikidoka Please explain how my request was not a reasonable response to what you wrote --- and please remember to post a video that responds to my request.

Jim
Very simple Jim
I was responding to Mary, not anything to do with Endo.
And my comment was limted to those from aikiweb posting-not the conflated comment about all people ever involved with Aikido throughout history; pre and post war as you stated.
Dan
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:41 PM   #95
DH
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
If only Dan would step on our collective toes causing the tops of our heads to pop open. Then he could dump in his wisdom.

Instead we have to rely on youtube I suppose:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8d...mNBNXlfNmE3b2M

It is odd though, someone so adept at criticizing the videos of others, would be so shy posting videos of himself.
I didn't get the you tube link to work but anyhoo.....
It is actually conveniant to keep targeting individuals, Anthony. It keeps the community from stepping up to the real truth that this material is ages old, out there in other cultures and their arts, and your own founder discussed and pointed to it and could do it, and that the majority of you missed it.

The personal targeting of me only works on the internet, as the truth of what I am saying is much greater than just a single voice. Moreover that it speaks for itself in person with people who both understand the work Ueshiba wrote about and can do it. It is not about a single person or personality; it is about a body of work that produces soft power and aiki. Which explains the growing skills of a myriad of folks who stepped up to the truth of Ueshiba's legacy. Unfortunately, that means you have to target an ever growing number of teachers. Not so easy to so when the numbers keep growing.

You can castigate the information dump as you will, but your shihans and senior teachers are still stumped and will remain stumped until they embrace the truth. There is no out, no hall pass and no...you are not going to get an "A" standing next to someone who does get Ueshiba's work. It is as bold and undeniable in person as that. The internet is sounding more and more like sour grapes.... as in person everyone keeps failing against it then switching to training it.
Most any other endevour would embrace that success. But budo is rarely about truth or success over factionalism and rank and affiliation.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-29-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #96
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

Generalities, generalities...... They are so boring.

I use 'invisible' shoulders that feel like the centre of kokyu and hips that make you feel like a moving mountain.

Peace. G.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:13 PM   #97
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Re: hips and shoulders

Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?

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Old 07-29-2012, 01:18 PM   #98
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Very simple Jim
I was responding to Mary, not anything to do with Endo.
And my comment was limted to those from aikiweb posting-not the conflated comment about all people ever involved with Aikido throughout history; pre and post war as you stated.
Dan
But in your response that you state was aimed at Mary, you go on to refer to "internal power teachers", "senior Japanese Shihan", and "big shot Masters" who don't move from/with the center (in your opinion). If you want to split hairs and now claim that when you said "from here," you were referring only to videos of people posting in this particular thread on AikiWeb, fine. I ask again that to further the discussion, you post a video of an aikidoka moving from, or connecting to someone, using his or her center well. It doesn't have to be someone participating in this discussion, or even still alive. It would be nice if you could use one of someone other than Ueshiba Morihei. It would be terrific if it were someone non-Japanese (and again, it doesn't have to be you).

Jim

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Old 07-29-2012, 01:49 PM   #99
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Can you talk more about invisible shoulders, Graham?
Sure. From the practice of weight underside and relaxing completely you find your shoulders disappear, become inconsequential. The same also applies to sword work.

So I find that even the thought of using shoulder has a subtle detrimental effect and I would say the greatest detrimental effect is on centre line.

So in conclusion I say they should have no resistance in them and so when you move someone back who is pushing your shoulder the the illusion is that you are using your shoulder. Actually I let go of my shoulder, turn back around centre line.

A good exercise I get people to do is having someone push through their shoulder. They are to let it go, not resist, and allow the upper body to rotate around centre line. This can then be moved on to letting it go and allowing the upper body to rotate and then rotating it back in the opposite direction. (back to original position.)

The only thing that get's in the way is the persons own mind and thus more masakatsu agatsu.

The main principles are thus letting go and keeping centre line (neutral) and acceptance (centre).

That's my boiled down explanation without going into energy.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #100
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I didn't get the you tube link to work but anyhoo.....
It is actually conveniant to keep targeting individuals, Anthony. It keeps the community from stepping up to the real truth that this material is ages old, out there in other cultures and their arts, and your own founder discussed and pointed to it and could do it, and that the majority of you missed it.
Sorry the link didn't work. It was simply a screen capture searching for your name on YouTube. The point being nothing relevant shows up. My gripe i have with your message is simply if you have criticism please post something to compare against.

Quote:
The internet is sounding more and more like sour grapes.... as in person everyone keeps failing against it then switching to training it.
Most any other endevour would embrace that success.
Dan
To embrace one would first have to observe, correct?

Just as an aside,
I don't know why others come to this site, but i don't come here for technical instruction.
If you have to goto the internet for that, time to change schools.
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