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Old 01-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Tokyo?
My father-in-law passed away yesterday, so we're here for the funeral.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-16-2012, 03:05 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
After studying other forms of Jujutsu and chin na, I started adding lot's of things to my Aikido. Things that I thought perhaps the founder overlooked. Then when I started seriously looking at Daito Ryu waza I realized that most of the techniques I was adding were in Daito Ryu. That made me ask the same question, why did he "prune back" the techniques. It was only after doing very heavy randori with multiple attackers that I found what I believe to be a reasonable answer- most of the techniques removed were not ideal for dealing with multiple attackers. I found this out the hard way, as when I did multiple attacker heavy randori I wasn't using many of these more involved techniques. Most of the techniques that were removed were to involved, and are only useful when facing one opponent at a time. I believe Ueshiba was streamlining Aikido for multiple attacker situations.
That may be true, OTHO, does it necessarily follow that core principles where changed? I know plenty of people who focus on perfecting one or two basic techniques for one reason or another (Zenzaburo Akazawa would do almost nothing but shiho-nage - and that was in the Daito-ryu days), but that doesn't mean that what they're doing is an entirely new and original art...

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-16-2012, 03:52 PM   #28
Marc Abrams
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
My father-in-law passed away yesterday, so we're here for the funeral.

Best,

Chris
My condolences to your family and your wife's family. Travel home safely.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:09 PM   #29
Rob Watson
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Check out the 50th anniversary commemorative DVD and see many schools of Daito ryu and others (Yoseikan) and a representative group from Aikiai. See if you can find a commonality that can be stamped 'Daito ryu' and then contrast that with the Yoseikan and Aikikai presentations.

Note that ones aikido may not be fairly represented by that shown by the aikikai group!

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:05 PM   #30
Allen Beebe
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
My father-in-law passed away yesterday, so we're here for the funeral.

Best,

Chris
心からお悔やみ申し上げます

Sincerely,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:21 AM   #31
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

I think a really great answer to the original poster's question can be found in the DVD of the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takeda demonstration that you can purchase here from Stan Pranin.

Buy the DVD from Stan. Many of these video clips are pirated on youtube but you've got to watch the whole thing. There is a lot of really amazing stuff, some merely decent stuff, and there is also Kodokai.

But watch all of the Daito ryu demonstrations - they are put in a nice order. Shihan and senior level practitioners perform various selections of Daito ryu's very large syllabus.

Then, watch the demo by Masatoshi Yasuno, who is a 7th dan at the hombu. Whatever you may think of his Aikido, look at it for what it is in the context of that event.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:20 PM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think a really great answer to the original poster's question can be found in the DVD of the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takeda demonstration that you can purchase here from Stan Pranin.

Buy the DVD from Stan. Many of these video clips are pirated on youtube but you've got to watch the whole thing. There is a lot of really amazing stuff, some merely decent stuff, and there is also Kodokai.

But watch all of the Daito ryu demonstrations - they are put in a nice order. Shihan and senior level practitioners perform various selections of Daito ryu's very large syllabus.

Then, watch the demo by Masatoshi Yasuno, who is a 7th dan at the hombu. Whatever you may think of his Aikido, look at it for what it is in the context of that event.
Seen it - and actually trained with some of the guys giving demonstrations. Trained with Yasuno, too.

So...based on that what would you say are the differences?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-17-2012, 03:43 PM   #33
Cliff Judge
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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Seen it - and actually trained with some of the guys giving demonstrations. Trained with Yasuno, too.

So...based on that what would you say are the differences?

Best,

Chris
I'd like to beg your indulgence in allowing me to not share my personal opinion here. I think there is something fairly obvious in this DVD that reflects well on the potential of both Daito ryu and Aikido training.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 01-17-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:05 PM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I'd like to beg your indulgence in allowing me to not share my personal opinion here. I think there is something fairly obvious in this DVD that reflects well on the potential of both Daito ryu and Aikido training.
Well, I trained with people giving demonstrations on both the Aikido and the Daito-ryu side (one of my Daito-ryu teachers can be sitting right in the front, too) - and it doesn't seem as obvious to me as it seems that it does to people just watching the video clips. Why cite the video at all, then?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-18-2012, 10:15 AM   #35
Brion Toss
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
After studying other forms of Jujutsu and chin na, I started adding lot's of things to my Aikido. Things that I thought perhaps the founder overlooked. Then when I started seriously looking at Daito Ryu waza I realized that most of the techniques I was adding were in Daito Ryu. That made me ask the same question, why did he "prune back" the techniques. It was only after doing very heavy randori with multiple attackers that I found what I believe to be a reasonable answer- most of the techniques removed were not ideal for dealing with multiple attackers.
This sounds like a correlation/cause error. If you saw a car that had two tires with no tread on them, and the other two of a different side, idling really roughly, you might conclude that the owner was poor, or not good at maintenance. But a little further information might reveal that the car was in fact optimized for drag racing.
Similarly, it seems unlikely that Aikido's evolution was shaped by a consideration for multiple attackers, even if the forms adapt well to that situation. A simpler, more encompassing explanation might be that aiki was stressed, making for, among other things, cleaner, quicker entries, and compassion was stressed, making for, among other things, less time spent with uke.

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:25 AM   #36
Brion Toss
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

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So far on this thread I haven't seen much (any) evidence presented for a significant variation in core technical principles. Some people have brought up some points of variation, but I have to point out that Daito-ryu varies widely within itself, and the same is true for Aikido.

Then we have the spiritual angle. But then, there are many people who teach Aikido with a very limited spiritual overlay, just a general moral ethic, and they are considered, without argument, to be respected teachers of conventional Aikido.

So where do that leave us?
Hi again,
And yet, they are different. Earlier I made the analogy of Anglican and Catholic tenets and principles. Very similar, root and branch, and yet very different in practice. Any number of other examples might be found in the fields of architecture, music, cuisine, etc. Sure, everything is relative, but meaningful distinctions do occur.
As for the spiritual component, I'll say, once more, that martial arts masters are well-known for speaking of Cosmic Oneness, Compassion, etc.; it's just that Ueshiba put a lot more emphasis on that aspect, and lived it, and that the way he lived affected those who followed him, even the ones that were not the nicest people in the world. And that this effect was significant enough that it persists to this day, so that people choose Aikido -- with good reason or not -- in part for that reason.

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 01-18-2012, 01:03 PM   #37
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote: View Post
This sounds like a correlation/cause error. If you saw a car that had two tires with no tread on them, and the other two of a different side, idling really roughly, you might conclude that the owner was poor, or not good at maintenance. But a little further information might reveal that the car was in fact optimized for drag racing.
Similarly, it seems unlikely that Aikido's evolution was shaped by a consideration for multiple attackers, even if the forms adapt well to that situation. A simpler, more encompassing explanation might be that aiki was stressed, making for, among other things, cleaner, quicker entries, and compassion was stressed, making for, among other things, less time spent with uke.
You are correct. With your analogy, just looking at the car, we don't know what we have. We can ask questions to the owner of the car, and find out if he is an auto racer or a poor mechanic. Since in our case, the owner of the car is no longer among us, we can only infer from his writings what he was interested in. In my case, I've seen Ueshiba write many times about his interest in multiple attackers, here is a quick example: (from http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html)
Quote:
"At about the age of 14 or 15. First I learned Tenshinyo-ryu Jujitsu from Tozawa Tokusaburo Sensei, then Kito-ryu, Yagyu Ryu, Aioi-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, all of them Jujitsu forms. However, I thought there might be a true form of Budo elsewhere. I tried Hozoin-ryu Sojitsu and Kendo. But all of these arts are concerned with one-to-one combat forms and they could not satisfy me. So I visited many parts of the country seeking the Way and training. . . but all in vain. "
My experiences working with the Aikido syllabus within the context of heavy randori I've found that, many things I felt were lacking when doing randori one-on-one, were very effective when looking at multiple attackers.

Again, back to the analogy, we only have the car to look at, that car can teach us, whether the "modifications" were purposeful or due to lack of care. My theory is that these modifications are purposeful, and due to design for a specific task; multiple attackers. But it is only my opinion.

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Old 01-18-2012, 01:46 PM   #38
Howard Popkin
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Hi,

I have a slightly different point of view here, never having studied Aikido, only jujitsu and Daitoryu. Since I am not qualified to comment from the Aikido perspective, these comments relate to my views only.

1) Daitoryu randori varies form teacher to teacher. The Daitoryu I have studied clearly focuses on multiple attackers, just in a different manner than the Aikido I have seen ( I said, the Aikido I have seen).

2) Daitoryu has much smaller footwork than that of the Aikido I have seen ( I said, the Aikido I have seen). That doesn't hold true for all Daitoryu.

3) The Daitoryu that we practice is very soft. By soft I don't mean not damaging or non-concussive. I mean two major differences:
A) The muscular energy and tension used is much less than in Aikido (unless you come from a soft style of Aikido)
b) The point of contact is never a power struggle.

So, in summary.....it all depends on your teacher

Hope that helps, but it doesn't.......bottom line, get out there and feel as many people as you can. Find the one that fits you the best.

Enjoy !

Howard

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Old 01-18-2012, 03:14 PM   #39
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote: View Post
Hi again,
And yet, they are different. Earlier I made the analogy of Anglican and Catholic tenets and principles. Very similar, root and branch, and yet very different in practice. Any number of other examples might be found in the fields of architecture, music, cuisine, etc. Sure, everything is relative, but meaningful distinctions do occur.
I saw a very detailed comparison of the technical similarities, can you give the same for the differences?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote: View Post
As for the spiritual component, I'll say, once more, that martial arts masters are well-known for speaking of Cosmic Oneness, Compassion, etc.; it's just that Ueshiba put a lot more emphasis on that aspect, and lived it, and that the way he lived affected those who followed him, even the ones that were not the nicest people in the world. And that this effect was significant enough that it persists to this day, so that people choose Aikido -- with good reason or not -- in part for that reason.
Well, different teachers have different personalities and beliefs, and their students reflect that - in any art. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is a differentiation in the art. Further, what about the Aikido schools who don't put an emphasis on the spiritual - does that mean that they are not doing Aikido?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-18-2012, 06:37 PM   #40
DH
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I saw a very detailed comparison of the technical similarities, can you give the same for the differences?

Well, different teachers have different personalities and beliefs, and their students reflect that - in any art. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is a differentiation in the art. Further, what about the Aikido schools who don't put an emphasis on the spiritual - does that mean that they are not doing Aikido?

Best,
Chris
And lest we forget...in order to balance things out:
Takeda and Sagawa emphasized the defensive aspects of the art
and Ueshiba talked about exerting his will on his opponant, calling uke an opponant, the potential killing aspects of it, and he taught assassins before the war.
To me, part of the the beauty of these arts is to see each of the founders in their fullness.
Without aiki, Aikido both arts are rather palid and stale forms of jujutsu.
Dan
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Old 07-28-2012, 05:35 AM   #41
Jeff Smith
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

Hi Chris,
I've always wondered what was pared and why. I had noticed through my training that daito had more detail. Your answer makes logical sense. I will be using your explanation when the question arises.
Cheers
Jeff
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:51 AM   #42
JuniorB
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Re: What Distinguishes Aikido from Daito Ryu?

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...tsu-vs-aikido/

Very interesting article I just read, a little over generalized but a decent read.
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