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Old 07-18-2012, 03:52 AM   #26
mrlizard123
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
in fact Aikidoka not Hiroshi the local shopkeeper.
Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:23 AM   #27
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?
That's pretty much how he operates. His understanding of something is never wrong, you just don't get it the way he does.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:01 AM   #28
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.

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Old 07-18-2012, 08:23 AM   #29
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.
Well that ends that then
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:32 AM   #30
mrlizard123
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Wow...this thread must be a world record...we actually stayed on topic for 25 posts.
25 posts, so that makes Graham's dig at Chris regarding shopkeepers and the implication that Chris doesn't understand on topic?

I notice that you never call Graham to task for his diversions in to slights; my post is merely asking why we can't discuss things as our perspectives rather than, as Graham did in this case, declaring that disagreeing with him is essentially wrong/lack of understanding.

Just so I'm clear; if instead I had said "Someone once told me it's definitely not just the lower back; they weren't a greengrocer and were in fact an Aikidoka. Maybe one day you'll understand it." it would have been on topic?

Last edited by mrlizard123 : 07-18-2012 at 08:37 AM.

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Old 07-18-2012, 08:49 AM   #31
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Re: hips and shoulders

Whoops, I should have said 24...my mistake. sorry.

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:03 AM   #32
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Whoops, I should have said 24...my mistake. sorry.
No worries Mary, apologies on my part as well for participating in the thread drift.

FWIW I'm of the opinion that it's ok to move your hips (otherwise how would we get anywhere? ) but not as a source of power; I would not move my hips if the goal of that movement was affecting uke, but if I needed to translate my body in space of course I would.

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Old 07-18-2012, 10:47 AM   #33
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Re: hips and shoulders

Mary,
Hi. Are you referring to a movement that's like "hitoemi"? One where your shoulders stay over your hips as you move? I was still a little unclear on your description.

In general, though, I agree with Gerardo, Chris, and Chris. I typically don't have shoulders and hips moving as one, nor do I initiate movement with the hips. With weapons, I've been shown why that is a bad thing.

As a training tool ... again, I personally wouldn't do that. But, I have heard that a "hitoemi" type of movement can generate some strength/power.

Mark
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:56 AM   #34
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Necessary? If you've heard a word used in a particular context/usage it's fine to say this is how you've heard it, also fine if you say someone else has described it thusly.

Telling someone who speaks a particular language, which you don't, that you understand the general usage of a term better than they sounds a little like hubris; the point Chris made was that he is familiar with the term in martial contexts as well.

I don't believe he mentioned shopkeepers at all and, even if he had, why couldn't a shopkeeper also have martially relevant knowledge?
Hold on a minute what's your problem?

My words and comments were on topic thank you. Chris was generalizing and taking it off topic and in fact is incorrect as well.

He said the term in martial arts is used for the general pelvic area and that kua is nothing similar at all. False.

Koshi can be used for the general pelvic area and is used as I describe as well, particularly in Karate for example, It can also be used for the ball of the foot, so what, that's off topic. So in martial arts it is used as I say and he seems unaware of that, not surprisingly no matter how much Japanese he speaks. Also kua as used in tai chi (which is what I said) is very similar and open to the same kind of misunderstandings as he appears to be showing here. Very pertinent to the point of Mary for example having students trying to 'find' their hips.

By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.

Just because someone is Japanese speaking doesn't equal they know everything to do with a certain subject. He was being general, I was being very specific and thus saying generalities are irrelevant and off topic.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:08 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.
http://youtu.be/kZ3AKzd6FPU

The beginning of this you may find interesting and relevant to the above.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:37 PM   #36
Chris Li
 
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hold on a minute what's your problem?

My words and comments were on topic thank you. Chris was generalizing and taking it off topic and in fact is incorrect as well.

He said the term in martial arts is used for the general pelvic area and that kua is nothing similar at all. False.

Koshi can be used for the general pelvic area and is used as I describe as well, particularly in Karate for example, It can also be used for the ball of the foot, so what, that's off topic. So in martial arts it is used as I say and he seems unaware of that, not surprisingly no matter how much Japanese he speaks. Also kua as used in tai chi (which is what I said) is very similar and open to the same kind of misunderstandings as he appears to be showing here. Very pertinent to the point of Mary for example having students trying to 'find' their hips.

By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.

Just because someone is Japanese speaking doesn't equal they know everything to do with a certain subject. He was being general, I was being very specific and thus saying generalities are irrelevant and off topic.

Peace.G.
"Ball of the foot" is "koshi" - but the kanji are different, it's a completely different word.

I think that very few native Japanese speakers (and none of the Japanese native speakers that I know that do Chinese arts) would equate "koshi" with "kua".

As for the rest, I've commented previously.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-18-2012, 12:43 PM   #37
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Re: hips and shoulders

I'm not a fan of the whole "shoulder disappearing/re-appearing" thing. I've seen people using it as a trick to get out of pressure. What they do is that say against a wrist grab, they take their shoulders out of their sockets --disconnect them from the upper center -- and create a void that hopefully would produce some momentum and movement for them to escape and re-direct the pressure. Doesn't matter how relaxed you think you are, it's not whole-body movement as the shoulder is acting independently and it won't affect an attacker who's centered; in fact by using the shoulder like that it gives the attacker a "handle" and easy exploit into nage's center. With weapons it's more severe as they could just drive through you if you provide such leeway into your center. Whenever somebody does this to me say during kokyu-dosa, I'm thinking OK, so you just freed your shoulders… good I guess?… but you're not doing anything to me, in fact you just gave me an advantage, a "handle" into you. I think some students go to seminars and see teachers like Endo and explore movement based on copied external mannerisms but don't really know what else is involved.

The approach I've been thought is, keep shoulders in, always.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:32 PM   #38
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I'm not a fan of the whole "shoulder disappearing/re-appearing" thing. I've seen people using it as a trick to get out of pressure. What they do is that say against a wrist grab, they take their shoulders out of their sockets --disconnect them from the upper center -- and create a void that hopefully would produce some momentum and movement for them to escape and re-direct the pressure. Doesn't matter how relaxed you think you are, it's not whole-body movement as the shoulder is acting independently and it won't affect an attacker who's centered; in fact by using the shoulder like that it gives the attacker a "handle" and easy exploit into nage's center. With weapons it's more severe as they could just drive through you if you provide such leeway into your center. Whenever somebody does this to me say during kokyu-dosa, I'm thinking OK, so you just freed your shoulders… good I guess?… but you're not doing anything to me, in fact you just gave me an advantage, a "handle" into you. I think some students go to seminars and see teachers like Endo and explore movement based on copied external mannerisms but don't really know what else is involved.

The approach I've been thought is, keep shoulders in, always.
You describe your experience of what you take shoulder disappearing to mean but I doubt Mary meant it that way and I certainly didn't.

Secondly, if you are good enough to use your shoulder without being 'disconnected' then there's something for those who can't to learn no?

The approach I've learned is only one thing with relation to shoulders, especially in the beginning and that is keep them down and this relates to keeping elbows in.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:32 PM   #39
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
http://youtu.be/kZ3AKzd6FPU

The beginning of this you may find interesting and relevant to the above.

Peace.G.
Thanks for the video post Graham.

I don't know what "take their shoulders out of their sockets" that Geraldo posted refers to. Sounds painful. The beginning of the video Graham posted looks pretty much how we practice the exercise, though we use it more for ki development than technique. A characteristic of the exercise is that uke feels like he's pushing into an unyielding object throughout the entire exercise even though nage's shoulder is retreating during the initial phase of the movement.

We have a lot of paired exercises where nage moves while being pressured by uke via pushing or pulling.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:12 PM   #40
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Re: hips and shoulders

What I mean by taking the shoulders "out of their socket" is any action that results in the shoulders losing connection (popping out, acting independently, "separating", etc.) from a larger upper-body structure -- and by default, the whole-body structure. I was shown how this failure occurs and how to train to correct it. But hey, that's just poor ol' sucky me, I'm sure everybody else is awesome and doesn't do this at all so they can play around with their shoulders while keeping everything connected.

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 07-18-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:20 PM   #41
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Mary,
Hi. Are you referring to a movement that's like "hitoemi"? One where your shoulders stay over your hips as you move? I was still a little unclear on your description.

In general, though, I agree with Gerardo, Chris, and Chris. I typically don't have shoulders and hips moving as one, nor do I initiate movement with the hips. With weapons, I've been shown why that is a bad thing.

As a training tool ... again, I personally wouldn't do that. But, I have heard that a "hitoemi" type of movement can generate some strength/power.

Mark
Ok...I am exploring an idea...Endo Sensei really demonstrated it nicely...sorry my description was so scketchy....writing about it can be hard. I think I am saying one thing until I get it reflected back at me and then see I have said another.

Thanks for the video, Graham.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #42
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Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
What I mean by taking the shoulders "out of their socket" is any action that results in the shoulders losing connection (popping out, acting independently, "separating", etc.) from a larger upper-body structure -- and by default, the whole-body structure. I was shown how this failure occurs and how to train to correct it. But hey, that's just poor ol' sucky me, I'm sure everybody else is awesome and doesn't do this at all so they can play around with their shoulders while keeping everything connected.
I don't know about you being sucky and all but I can move my shoulder and still be centered. The shoulder doesn't pop out it...it blends with the grab and helps direct into the throw.

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Old 07-18-2012, 04:08 PM   #43
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
A characteristic of the exercise is that uke feels like he's pushing into an unyielding object throughout the entire exercise even though nage's shoulder is retreating during the initial phase of the movement.

We have a lot of paired exercises where nage moves while being pressured by uke via pushing or pulling.
Ron
At issue is how you receive/absorb/disperse/redirect/etc the incoming attack and energy. In this case the shoulder is the point of contact. Iif you hold it at the shoulders then you have disconnected from the rest of the body. The shoulder can be firm with everything passing through as long as everything is connected. By the way.......the shoulder follows it does not initiate, same with hips....they follow. If you initiate with the shoulders you have disconnected. How I see it......... And I think this is the road Gerado is traveling..........

Gary

Last edited by Gary David : 07-18-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:50 PM   #44
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Ron
At issue is how you receive/absorb/disperse/redirect/etc the incoming attack and energy. In this case the shoulder is the point of contact. Iif you hold it at the shoulders then you have disconnected from the rest of the body. The shoulder can be firm with everything passing through as long as everything is connected. By the way.......the shoulder follows it does not initiate, same with hips....they follow. If you initiate with the shoulders you have disconnected. How I see it......... And I think this is the road Gerado is traveling..........

Gary
Hi Gary -

I never mentioned the shoulder or hips initiating any movement. The body moves as a relaxed, integrated unit, not piecemeal. That idea was drummed into my and Mary's heads for years by Maruyama Sensei.

There is no disconnect because if the shoulder disconnects uke will run right thru you.

Ron

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Old 07-19-2012, 04:49 AM   #45
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hold on a minute what's your problem?
I don't know Graham, it's something to do with these reply and quote buttons that jump right out when I read some things...

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
By the sounds of it if you trained with me you would too for it appears you haven't come across this either.
An open door to visitors?

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Old 07-19-2012, 06:12 AM   #46
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Gary -

I never mentioned the shoulder or hips initiating any movement. The body moves as a relaxed, integrated unit, not piecemeal. That idea was drummed into my and Mary's heads for years by Maruyama Sensei.

There is no disconnect because if the shoulder disconnects uke will run right thru you.

Ron
Ron
My experience tells me that maintaining internal connection within yourself, your oneness if you like, is incredibly difficult to maintain as you move within a simulated environment where one attacks another within a training environment.....the problem being that one doesn't even sense/feel when they fall in and out of stability as they respond to the attack. Working on a daily basis within one's friendly and comfortable training environment doesn't help to bring these moments up to a level of awareness as you move through your training. It is also clear that dropping in and out is part of the reality of the relationship between people as they move together. Moving together in a friendly environment makes it less likely, over time, that one's awareness within oneself of the 'openings' presented by them within the movement come to the surface of their awareness.

Talking about the movement shown by Endo Sensei in the clip, for my part I would want to feel what he is doing as he is doing it to understand his level of connection within himself, where his movement is generated and how he is maintaining the bridge with me.

as ever

Gary
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:56 AM   #47
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Re: hips and shoulders

Since we already are doing that we can relate to how what Endo, Sensei is doing feels like. don't Testing is progressive. By testing I mean giving appropriate resistance according to the nage's experience.

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Old 07-19-2012, 10:41 AM   #48
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Since we already are doing that we can relate to how what Endo, Sensei is doing feels like. don't Testing is progressive. By testing I mean giving appropriate resistance according to the nage's experience.
Well that is that....... Nothing much I can add to your experiences or training processes.

My experiences, and mine alone, tell me that one goes in and out of phase any number of times during any single run through with any one partner........most are just not aware of it though the set of circumstances that guides the training model. When you go out side your local arrangement, when you go outside your association it becomes more evIdent. This is only a concern if one is still looking for something other or to add to what they are currently doing......if not be happy.

I can't comment on what you are doing or what you are not doing.....we have never crossed hands. As for Endo Sensei...I can see what he is doing, can see hints of where it is coming from, but if I want to know for sure I have to feel it. I don't have to totally resist...just make the connect and see what I get back. Of course that is what my experience tells me.....

As ever

Gary
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:21 AM   #49
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I don't know Graham, it's something to do with these reply and quote buttons that jump right out when I read some things...

An open door to visitors?
Never turned one away yet but I suppose there's always a first time

Peace.G.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:26 AM   #50
graham christian
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Re: hips and shoulders

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Well that is that....... Nothing much I can add to your experiences or training processes.

My experiences, and mine alone, tell me that one goes in and out of phase any number of times during any single run through with any one partner........most are just not aware of it though the set of circumstances that guides the training model. When you go out side your local arrangement, when you go outside your association it becomes more evIdent. This is only a concern if one is still looking for something other or to add to what they are currently doing......if not be happy.

I can't comment on what you are doing or what you are not doing.....we have never crossed hands. As for Endo Sensei...I can see what he is doing, can see hints of where it is coming from, but if I want to know for sure I have to feel it. I don't have to totally resist...just make the connect and see what I get back. Of course that is what my experience tells me.....

As ever

Gary
Gary, couldn't help coming in here because of the way you say one goes in and out of phase and the point of being aware of it. I like it!

Peace.G.
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