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Old 07-18-2012, 12:34 AM   #1
SteliosPapadakis
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No defence?

Standing by the beach, early afternoon, awaiting for my elder son to finish with his swimming training.
A group of teenagers gathers around a same age bossy guy. You average teenage picture, boys and girls (10-12 of them) in their swimsuits. The guy in the middle gives orders to the group, like "you! now leave", "you! go there". The orders are followed without second thought by his peers.
Small type gang, i think.
Yet what can possibly go wrong? We are in a beach, it is 16:00 in the afternoon, the beach is full of people of all ages.
Then the group moves 10-15 metres up towards the road. I keep watching but cannot hear what they say anymore.
I can see that the "bossy" guy talks calmly to another lad. They stand very close to each other, less that a metre away pelvis to pelvis. They talk and look each other in the eyes. No gesturing, no tightness in the body language.
Suddenly the bossy guy moves his fist with enormous power and fierce speed back and forth towards the belly of the other guy.
The latter steps back and begins to run holding his abdomen. By the time he runs close to me i can see that his has been slashed as blood floods out running down his legs as he runs.
Police came later, them had all vanished.
The question, maybe thought more precisely, stands.
The distance was very close. "uke" and "tori" were a foot or two from each other. No warning to alarm on intentions (none i could tell, at least), no visual with the hands (on the victim's side).
Was there any chance of defence?
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:32 AM   #2
JJF
 
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Re: No defence?

First of all: I hope the guy is okay, and that you are too. It must have been a quite unpleasant experience.

Defence aganist that attack would probably not be possible once the situation has gone so far as you describe. Maybe there is the odd chance that a very skilled martial artist would have reacted on the shift of the guys balance, flicker in the eyes or what ever other sign one can pick up.

In my opinion the best defence in this particular situation is to not get into such close contact with a possible assailant - nor to allow the situation to escalate to such a point. This is a lot easier said than done, but the sooner a dangerous situation can be sensed, the easier it can be avoided.

If somebody really want to hurt you, and they are cold and experienced enough to lure you into a situation to there advantage, then there is little to no chance of getting out of it unharmed regardless of how much practice you have. A knife, a gun, a hand grenade... something will be more than you can cope with.

Once again - I hope the victim is okay.

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:17 AM   #3
TokyoZeplin
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Re: No defence?

Echoing what Jørgen said, sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope the guy is doing OK!

I don't really see a defence for that. Not just with Aikido, but with any martial art. If you are already that close, and the knife isn't visible, then I doubt that anyone would have fast enough a reaction time to block the attack. And not only block it, but block it in a way appropriate for a knife attack.

The average human reaction time is, what, around 0.3 seconds, right? Even if a martial artist, through training, could cut that in half, that might not be enough to completely avoid the slash. Especially if it was as fast as you said. And if it really looked like they were just being casual and doing small talk, then chances are the guy that was slashed, never saw it coming, didn't expect it at all. You'd really have to be a very skilful and highly trained Martial Artist to avoid something like that, no matter the style.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:45 AM   #4
Belt_Up
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Re: No defence?

Quote:
I don't really see a defence for that. Not just with Aikido,
You haven't started aikido training yet.

Quote:
They stand very close to each other, less that a metre away pelvis to pelvis. They talk and look each other in the eyes. No gesturing, no tightness in the body language.
Sounds like a typical "squaring up" situation to me. They're often a precursor to a fight and that the situation went beyond talking shouldn't surprise anyone.

Quote:
The average human reaction time is, what, around 0.3 seconds, right?
180-200 milliseconds for a simple visual stimulus. http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/1...0of%20Stimulus
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:59 AM   #5
phitruong
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Re: No defence?

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
The distance was very close. "uke" and "tori" were a foot or two from each other. No warning to alarm on intentions (none i could tell, at least), no visual with the hands (on the victim's side).
Was there any chance of defence?
at that distance, the chance for defense is very low, almost none. in that sort of situation, the best defense is offensive, attack first.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:14 AM   #6
Benjamin Green
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Re: No defence?

Once the attack was in the air, no I don't think there's much chance of defence. Especially a defence that would have been effective enough to stop the other person quickly enough to render the knife a non-issue. Squaring up is intimidating entirely because it makes defence almost impossible. Beforehand he could probably have backed down though, or escalated the situation himself and retained some degree of control.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:36 AM   #7
Cliff Judge
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Re: No defence?

An effective defense for this type of attack would have had to begin before the attacker's body was in motion at all.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:44 AM   #8
TokyoZeplin
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Re: No defence?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
You haven't started aikido training yet.
Man, what's up with you... you've been taking a stab (no pun intended) at me in 3 threads, in the last 20 minutes.
By all means, then, explain to me how apparently Aikido has a defence for this situation?
Lets recap:
Standing close, talking casual, you are not aware an attack is coming, you are relaxed and unaware of danger, you do not know the person has a knife, and the strike comes with "enormous power and fierce speed".

Please, enlighten me as to what technique would allow you to properly defend in this situation.
Are you honestly telling me, that you believe that you, or an average person, and even a "skilled person", training Aikido, would be able to defend in such a situation?
So far, the other replies would disagree with you.
And if you aren't saying that... then what's up with your reply to me?

Quote:
180-200 milliseconds for a simple visual stimulus. http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/1...0of%20Stimulus
Average median reaction time, 215ms. Personally I'm all the way up a bit above 300.
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/index.php
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:21 AM   #9
Dazzler
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Re: No defence?

Aikido defence - Maai...distance.

Non Aikido defence - look up The Fence & Geoff Thompson.

anyone thats done even the smallest amount of verbal training will recognise the symptoms of an impending attack. You don't need waving hands or great big signals...a single word, a nod of the head...a fixed stare or gritting of the teeth. Any of these are clues that someone is puffing themselves up for a bit of reputation building at the victims expense.

Of course there are no guarantees....the real circumstances here are hidden but you don't need to be a genius to work out that standing in front of someone and arguing can be a recipe for disaster.

Regards

D
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:43 AM   #10
SeiserL
 
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Re: No defence?

Look up Sensei Dye in Costa Mesa, CA. For LEO, he teaches Aikido on one tatami mat. Close range, hallway space.

IMHO, Aikido usually trains against and attack, not an ambush. But its still very applicable.

BTW, love Thompson's fence.

Situation awareness sees the set up before the attack/ambush.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:56 AM   #11
Mark Harrington
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Ma-ai

Distance is the defense. Ma-ai , stepping back and speaking with someone at slightly more than arm's length so that they have to take a step and give away their intention to attack is crucial.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:24 AM   #12
phitruong
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Mark Harrington wrote: View Post
Distance is the defense. Ma-ai , stepping back and speaking with someone at slightly more than arm's length so that they have to take a step and give away their intention to attack is crucial.
your statement reminded me of this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTT4Kw-wohA

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:25 AM   #13
Belt_Up
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Re: No defence?

Quote:
By all means, then, explain to me how apparently Aikido has a defence for this situation?
I never claimed or implied it did. My point was quite separate from that.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:36 AM   #14
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Mark Harrington wrote: View Post
Distance is the defense. Ma-ai , stepping back and speaking with someone at slightly more than arm's length so that they have to take a step and give away their intention to attack is crucial.
Obviously that would work, but I don't (as far as I understood it) think that was the original question. Rather, the question was if there was a defence for that specific situation - where you are NOT standing far away, but rather very close.
There are certainly psychopathic people out there, who would show no hint of doing you harm, before it was too late. To me it sounds like the guy was practically set up for a "hit", called up for a casual chat, nothing alarming, and BANG out of nowhere.

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I never claimed or implied it did. My point was quite separate from that.
Then I don't understand the relevance of what you were saying at all.
My answer was not specific to Aikido, it was a matter of human reaction time and circumstances. I don't see any Martial Art, or any technique, that could have avoided the attack, unless you were a very honed master.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:38 AM   #15
Benjamin Green
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
your statement reminded me of this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTT4Kw-wohA
Whole thread reminds me of something that was on Dan's blog recently

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.co.uk/...sty-first.html

Especially this vid.

http://youtu.be/AJfsdBn7UYE
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:57 AM   #16
Belt_Up
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
Whole thread reminds me of something that was on Dan's blog recently

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.co.uk/...sty-first.html

Especially this vid.

http://youtu.be/AJfsdBn7UYE
Good stuff.

Quote:
Then I don't understand the relevance of what you were saying at all.
That's been happening to you a lot on here.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:07 AM   #17
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
Whole thread reminds me of something that was on Dan's blog recently

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.co.uk/...sty-first.html

Especially this vid.

http://youtu.be/AJfsdBn7UYE
Super interesting, that right there!

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
That's been happening to you a lot on here.
Well, if I aknowledge I don't get your point, and you still refuse to explain it, then we aren't going to get anywhere then, now are we
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:17 AM   #18
Rob Watson
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Re: No defence?

Surrounded by 10-12 folks in a semi-unified group ... yeah, never saw a thing coming. Right. When was the last time you were surrounded and did not have all kinds of 'spidey-sense' bells going off? Common sense is a prerequisite for any successful violent encounter.

I can't even hang out with that many of my own family without getting twitchy.

I'll bet there is quite a back story to all this that put things into context that might even make some sort of sense.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:20 PM   #19
Basia Halliop
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Re: No defence?

I don't know how much defense there would be by the time they got in that close to each other.

But, OTOH, the guy sounds creepy just from your description before then... normal friends don't order each other around like trained dogs.

So in that sense, maybe it might have been preventable. Don't hang around with assholes?
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:05 PM   #20
Belt_Up
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Re: No defence?

Quote:
Well, if I aknowledge I don't get your point, and you still refuse to explain it, then we aren't going to get anywhere then, now are we
I'm not looking to "get anywhere". I made a very simple point. Incredibly simple. Why should I go on to elucidate further, if I cannot make it any simpler. If there were 253 working defences in aikido from an attack like that, how many would you know? Please take some advice, and wind your neck in a little bit.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:10 PM   #21
Mark Harrington
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Obviously that would work, but I don't (as far as I understood it) think that was the original question. Rather, the question was if there was a defence for that specific situation - where you are NOT standing far away, but rather very close.
Philip,

I think ma-ai is the answer to an effective defense, because I think the attack had begun some time before the actual weapon was used. The attack did not begin when he slashed the victim, it began when he was talking, closing the distance, setting up his position, looking for a moment of inattention. To phrase the question, "what is the effective defense?", should allow that the defense can begin at the same time as the attack.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:28 PM   #22
James Sawers
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Re: No defence?

Ma-ai, distance, is a good defense against a knife. My hand-to-hand combat instructor in the army used to say that you run from a knife and charge a gun (you can't out run a bullet, so goes the theory). But, if you have to get in a knife fight, expect to be cut, just try to make sure you are not cut in a vital area before you manage to take down the other guy or make your escape....

As for an aikido defense against such an attack, I think it is good to remember that while aikido is generally characterized as a "defensive" martial art this does not mean that you just have to stand there and wait till some aggressor makes an overt move against you. Aikido training also has to do with observing your surroundings and other people. If you perceive an imminent attack, nothing in aikido says (just the opposite, in fact) that you can't do a preemptive strike of your own against your attacker.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:32 AM   #23
tlk52
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Re: No defence?

yes, ma-ai and constant vigilance etc... but

the Chinese martial arts have a saying that I don't remember exactly, something to the effect that "anyone can make themselves unbeatable but that to do it you have to make yourself into a savage beast"

ie: Samurai from the warring states period (or even the stories about Sokaku Takeda) who basically considered anyone within a few feet of them as possible enemies, especially any groups. never relaxing garde, always being armed and even sleeping with weapons, etc... living as if in a mortal threat situation at all times.

most of us wouldn't want to, and probably don't need to, live with that consciousness. but in threatening situations it's something to remember re the ma-ai. if their standing where they can touch you then you're in active danger.

*there's a self defense program (http://www.rmcat.com/) that demonstrates exactly this attack (they describe it on their website) . the instructor with a concealed practice knife starts talking pleasantly to the group and moves close to someone, puts his hand on their shoulder, and suddenly pulls the knife out stabs several times

and a very interesting self defense site (not "how to" techniques is http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

here's a quote
"Let's start with the fact that the self defense defense is an affirmative defense.

Go back and read that again, it's important. An affirmative defense means, by claiming self-defense, you are coming out and saying "I did it."

Specifically, you are admitting to actions that are normally a crime.

Read that again, you're admitting to what is 99% of the time, a crime. But, you are saying that you did those actions in order to stop the same criminal act from being unjustly done to you.

Once you claim 'self-defense' you can't go back and say "Well, I didn't mean that" when -- and if -- things start going badly for you. You've confessed already. Even if it started as self-defense, if you crossed the line, you've just plead guilty to it.

Let's add another term to your legal repertoire: Burden of Proof

By using the self-defense defense, the responsibility of proof is on you! You're no longer innocent proven guilty! By confessing, you're guilty until YOU can demonstrate differently! YOU have to PROVE that what you did was not only self-defense, but justified. It isn't self-defense just because you say it was (Remember both sides in a fight claiming it was 'self defense?'). So right off the bat, you're going to have some explaining to do.

This is why it is important to know where your actions stop being self-defense and turn you into an aggressor. If, upon investigation, it is found that you crossed the line from self-defense into assault, you've confessed to that too."


a
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:14 AM   #24
JJF
 
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
your statement reminded me of this movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTT4Kw-wohA
Made me think of this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE

Slightly different approach, but still.. if you don't train for realistic situations..

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:38 AM   #25
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Re: Ma-ai

Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
Made me think of this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE

Slightly different approach, but still.. if you don't train for realistic situations..
Dear Phi,
If you look for Tommy Cooper Karate Instructor on youtube you will P yourself laughing.Give yourself a taste of British comedy. Cheers, Joe
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