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Old 10-19-2006, 01:40 PM   #1
Charles Aarons
Dojo: Takayama Aikido
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nikyo

shomen uchi nikyo ura (aikikai style)...does anyone perfrom ikkyo ura first, and then proceed with securing nikyo? Other styles grab the wrist immediately in shomen nikyo ura.
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:56 PM   #2
MikeLogan
 
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Re: nikyo

I've seen shomen uchi nikyo ura done in two ways, the first being Responding with ikkyo omote, and the stance adjusts as the wrist comes up to the shoulder, lining everything up between nage and uke. The second variation involves ikkyo ura first, and then proceeds the same.
I am foggy in this regard, and maybe Aikido3D is a good aikikai reference to clear it up, but shomen uchi nikyo omote might be what you are describing at the end of your post. And if that is not what you meant, then as far as I have seen, shomen uchi nikyo omote looks a lot like going straight into ikkyo, but with a nikyo like interaction with uke's wrist. Hard to say, and only slightly easier to do, hehe.

michael.
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Old 10-19-2006, 04:39 PM   #3
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: nikyo

You have to perform ikkyo first, unless you have the magical ability to grab someone's arm in a nikkyo grip while it is flying toward your head at 90 mph. If the strike is in earnest, there is no realistic way of grabbing it whatever the grip - you have to block or parry it first, dissipate its momentum, and unbalance or somehow disrupt nage. If you don't do the first two, it is impossible to grab, and if you don't do the last, they'll simply yank it away from you and hit you again or reverse you. If you are grabbing uke's strikes on the way down or switching grips while they stand balanced patiently holding their arm out for you, you are practicing something which will only work when someone gives you a watered-down attack designed for basic study.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:27 AM   #4
ian
 
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Re: nikyo

One exercise I like is in hanmi-handachi, copying 'exactly' from the sequence that Ueshiba does (which is obviously a training sequence from aikijitsu).

from contact (shomen uchi, or just shomen-uchi type contact)

1. ikkyo irimi (each side) (uke weak)
2. ikkyo tenkan (each side) (uke strong & pushing through)
3. tenchi-nage - tenkan (uke strong & pushing through and resisting ikkyo tenkan. Basically you allow a little force towards you but you then move to the opposite side (that you would doing ikkyo tenkan) thus uke is thrown quite hard if he is resisting ikkyo tenkan).
*4. nikkyo (doing tenkan ikkyo 1st and using your thumb to lead around into nikkyo)
*5. sankyo (but this time grabbing ukes hand instead of wrist as you go into ikkyo tenkan type movement so sankyo is on with the other hand before you swap over).
6. kote-gaeshi


Sorry only (*) is relevant to your question, but I thought I'd give you the sequence anyway.

Ian

P.S. if you grab ikkyo with a gokyo type grip, nikkyo is then possible - I think its useful to consider that all these techniques blend into one another, and not to think that nikkyo is one way or another; ideally you need to be able to do both ways and all ways in between!

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-20-2006, 09:28 AM   #5
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
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Re: nikyo

There are various ways to nikkyo ura from a shomenuchi attack.
1. ikkyo ura first into nikkyo
2. ikkyo omote first into nikkyo
3. ikkyo omote nukete first into nikkyo
4. tenkan {w/hand under uke's hand} into nikkyo
5. tenshin {gator uke's hand} into nikkyo
6. kaitennage into nikkyo

Last edited by odudog : 10-20-2006 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 11-02-2006, 08:29 AM   #6
racingsnake
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Re: nikyo (ura) from shomen uchi

It's a tricky one. I've been looking at it a lot over the last few months, as I have to grade on it on Saturday ;-g

Saotome Sensei's book "The Principles of Aikido" includes a good photo sequence for this technique, which he prefaces with the note that "nage must start by trying sincerely for shomen uchi ikkyo"... and then illustrates how the transition from ikkyo to nikyo can arise naturally out of uke's attempt to rise up in the course of having ikkyo (ura) applied. Saotome uses this as an example of how uke and nage work in harmony in the execution of a technique.

Another good resource for shomen uchi nikyo (ura) in my opinion is Yamada Sensei's "The Power and the Basics", where he goes through it in a way which shows the hand positions and the corresponding steps nice and clearly.

As a prevous poster noted, you'd be lucky to get away with grabbing uke's 'striking' wrist directly (i.e. with the gyaku hand). However, Yamada shows clearly how an initial ikkyo-style interception is smoothly converted into a wrist-grip in preparation for the application of nikyo.

That is: from a two-handed ikkyo (ura) style interception, you step to uke's ura side and turn so that you keep facing his striking hand; as you turn, your gyaku hand slides down from uke's upper arm to his wrist (incidentally guarding against an elbow-strike on the way). You are then in a position to sink, drawing uke's striking hand down and around in preparation to apply nikyo.

I hope this description makes sense... also I hope that I can actually do it and not just describe it ;^)
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:54 AM   #7
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: nikyo (ura) from shomen uchi

Quote:
Robin Wilton wrote:
It's a tricky one. I've been looking at it a lot over the last few months, as I have to grade on it on Saturday ;-g

Saotome Sensei's book "The Principles of Aikido" includes a good photo sequence for this technique, which he prefaces with the note that "nage must start by trying sincerely for shomen uchi ikkyo"... and then illustrates how the transition from ikkyo to nikyo can arise naturally out of uke's attempt to rise up in the course of having ikkyo (ura) applied. Saotome uses this as an example of how uke and nage work in harmony in the execution of a technique.

Another good resource for shomen uchi nikyo (ura) in my opinion is Yamada Sensei's "The Power and the Basics", where he goes through it in a way which shows the hand positions and the corresponding steps nice and clearly.

As a prevous poster noted, you'd be lucky to get away with grabbing uke's 'striking' wrist directly (i.e. with the gyaku hand). However, Yamada shows clearly how an initial ikkyo-style interception is smoothly converted into a wrist-grip in preparation for the application of nikyo.

That is: from a two-handed ikkyo (ura) style interception, you step to uke's ura side and turn so that you keep facing his striking hand; as you turn, your gyaku hand slides down from uke's upper arm to his wrist (incidentally guarding against an elbow-strike on the way). You are then in a position to sink, drawing uke's striking hand down and around in preparation to apply nikyo.

I hope this description makes sense... also I hope that I can actually do it and not just describe it ;^)
Good observations.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #8
racingsnake
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Re: nikyo

Revisiting this after a few more years of practice... I noted Kevin Wilbanks' comment about why going straight for uke's wrist might not be practical. However, I also received instruction from the late Sugano Shihan in which he explicitly indicated that O Sensei taught just that: your 'gyaku' hand goes straight to uke's striking wrist, by contrast with ikkyo in which it goes to uke's striking arm, just above the elbow. (As I noted, Yamada Shihan, who was Sugano's co-instructor at New York Aikikai, also demonstrates the 'straight to the wrist' way of applying shomen uchi nikyo ura).

The only suggestion I have about reconciling this with Kevin's comment is as follows: if you were only using your 'gyaku' hand, I would entirely agree with Kevin - you'd have to have reflexes like a snake to grab a full-speed shomen before it reached you. However, the key may be in the use of your 'ai' hand, which - after all - is meant to be intercepting and blending with uke's strike before you attempt to gain control with your 'gyaku' hand. Louis van Thieghem Shihan uses a very interesting exercise for shomen uhci ikkyo, in which nage has his/her eyes closed (!)... one thing it definitely teaches you is the role of the 'ai' hand in providing tactile guidance to your 'gyaku' hand without the need to look at uke's strike...

I hope this helps. The learning process continues... probably indefinitely ;-)

Last edited by racingsnake : 07-17-2012 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:06 AM   #9
Mario Tobias
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Re: nikyo

you can do it several ways. but the common thing for different nikkyo styles is the transition of the grabbing hand going into nikkyo.

This clip is one of my favorites for nikkyo ura with miyamoto sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2qiL...feature=relmfu

and another one with endo sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ3AKzd6FPU
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:26 AM   #10
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: nikyo

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
...and another one with endo sensei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ3AKzd6FPU
Just to be clear: Sensei is showing nikyo omote here.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:09 PM   #11
Mario Tobias
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Re: nikyo

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Just to be clear: Sensei is showing nikyo omote here.
wrong cut and paste for some reason. here's what I wanted to show. but the principles are still the same for both omote and ura.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqgPo...feature=relmfu
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:34 AM   #12
edshockley
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Re: nikyo

I very humbly suggest that this type of specific question is best answered in a dojo. Working with a talented sensei after a class or seminar will yield a wealth of responses all superior to what we receive from film. Taleb sensei had the practice of asking if there were any questions at the end of class and then would teach a mini lesson on topics like your post. I have met with the same response with Manogue sensei, Demko Shihan, Henry Smith Shihan, Bernath Shihan just to name a few. I am in no way trying to discourage this sort of intellectual forum but rather encourage you to take advantage of another more fruitful available path to the knowledge that you seek.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:41 AM   #13
MM
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Re: nikyo

Quote:
Ed Shockley wrote: View Post
I very humbly suggest that this type of specific question is best answered in a dojo. Working with a talented sensei after a class or seminar will yield a wealth of responses all superior to what we receive from film. Taleb sensei had the practice of asking if there were any questions at the end of class and then would teach a mini lesson on topics like your post. I have met with the same response with Manogue sensei, Demko Shihan, Henry Smith Shihan, Bernath Shihan just to name a few. I am in no way trying to discourage this sort of intellectual forum but rather encourage you to take advantage of another more fruitful available path to the knowledge that you seek.
Sure this would be better answered by a qualified teacher. But, if someone wanted an overview of a technique or how other schools train, it's nice to read posts and view video. What's the chances a teacher from Yoshinkan will know how the Ki Society performs a technique? Online can help someone form a better question to ask an aikido teacher after class. No, video can't take the place of a qualified teacher so I agree that's a much better option, but, posts and video can help educate and inform.

Personally, if I had the option of viewing video or having Peter Bernath show me a technique, I'd choose Peter 10 out of 10 times.
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