Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2012, 06:57 AM   #1
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
hips and shoulders

Have you noticed how when you turn your hips and let you hands stay in proportion to your hips, your shoulders follow your hips and can provide extra opportunity to your hands?

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 11:48 AM   #2
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 181
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

I don't think you should be turning from your hips. At least we don't do that in weapons, and I've been working to remove that habit from aikido as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 11:58 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Yes agreed.

If you point everything in one direction and move as a unified body, combined with mental focus/awareness and intention/attention/projection, you may just find some extra power and opportunities.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 02:42 PM   #4
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 03:22 PM   #5
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Uke pushes...nage turns at the hips...nage's opposite arm comes underneath uke's elbow and past, curling up...nage turns hips back in the direction whense she came ...uke's elbow collapses as nage's shoulder follows nage's opposite hip.

What I am noticing is how the shoulder joint can move to help unsettle uke as it moves in conjunction with the hips.

I hope that is clearer than mud. )

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:03 PM   #6
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 181
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Are "turning your hips" and "turning from your hips" the same thing?
Add a third one: "turns at the hips". All three imply a conscious decision to use hip rotation to source or generate power, or initiate/create movement. All three are inefficient ways to do this IMO, especially keeping shoulders and hips rotating in unison as this will cause one to get locked and stopped pretty easily. Also, if hips and shoulders are rotating together, what's happening to the knees?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:14 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,000
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Try Googling "three external harmonies" - here's the first result that came up when I tried it:

http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/artic..._harmonies.php

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:17 PM   #8
Chris Knight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 138
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:23 PM   #9
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,000
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
plus one gerrado

mary ~ my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push, or worst case scenario turn with ur centre, not your hips

just my opinion

regards Chris
Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 04:24 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
... turn with ur centre, not your hips
I didn't understand the difference between center and hips well until I started having to do seated kokyudosa from a crosslegged, therefore externally static, position. I could not move my hips but could instead focus on free movement of my center - not as "there" as I'd like but in fact its a lovely exercise for it....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:06 PM   #11
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes, I'd go with (the other) Chris and Gerardo - no turning from da hips.

Best,

Chris
Thanks for your input...did you try it?

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:17 PM   #12
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,000
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Thanks for your input...did you try it?
The exercise you were talking about? Not yet. Not turning from the hips? All the time. Hips can turn, I'd say, but only if you are also changing location.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:35 PM   #13
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 636
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
my thoughts would be to try to neutralise the push
In this exercise the push is neutralized before any motion takes place.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:54 PM   #14
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

In answer to the o/p I find yes and no.

Yes in as much as if wanting to use your shoulder then the connection with the hips is imperative.

Secondly I would say that two things can be practiced:
1) Turning from centre.
2) Turning from hips (koshi) (kua)

I would ask you Mary as to which part of the hips do you feel you are moving ie: the whole bowl so to speak or do you concentrate on relaxing the back of the hips and thus that pivotal point.?

Personally now I find the shoulders 'disappearing' when turning the hips, going 'passive' rather than 'active' and if I am reading your exercise correctly it would then lead me more to a kokyu ho type exercise.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 05:57 PM   #15
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

IMHO, taking the structural alignment from the foot, up the leg, "through" the hips/center/hara, extended into the elbows, out the fingers, extended/projected into and through the uke's center, towards a kuzushi point tends to do it for me.

Visualize the path. Energy follows focus.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 06:00 PM   #16
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 06:17 PM   #17
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Shoulder disappearing then reemerging... blending with uke's push when needed... not if if not needed. Each uke is so different.
Granted. I agree.

As an added bit of interest your description reminded me of something I was taught or rather shown many moons ago and although it's not really to do with hip/shoulder it is to do with turning and then turning back.

I was wondering how comes the teacher could turn me back and flip me with hardly any movement from himself. He showed me what it looked like if done so that I could see it. He proceeded to take my attack and lead me around with a complete tai sabaki and then turn back with kote gaeshi. All very slowly and comfortably.

He said after lots of practice and focus on the flows and energy of such basics you can already have it done which looks to the outsider like a short cut or something totally different. Yet energy wise it's the same as that slow well recognizable form.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 09:25 AM   #18
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,703
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 09:30 AM   #19
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I also like the image of a double-cross: in which there are two horizontal arms (the shoulders and the hips) directly aligned with each other and a third vertical post (the spine). Turn neither the shoulders or the hips, turn the spine.
Yes....thanks.

I have couple of students who can't find their hips...hense my fascination with this right now.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 11:39 AM   #20
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 12:58 PM   #21
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.

Once again it's a western concept put over the Japanese and so people struggle with understanding it.

To get the reality to my students I get them practicing the feeling of sitting on a comfortable chair or setee and how that action is where you naturally relax the back of the hips and and lower it. Thus awareness of koshi and the Japanese meaning for hips is gained.

I then give examples of let's say the horse stance and how that is sitting in koshi.

Other methods of how to find the hips.

Peace.G.
Great, I will give that a try.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:15 PM   #22
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,000
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wrote about this when I talked about Koshi. Basically Japanese use the word to mean hips but more specifically the back of the hips, base of the spine.

So when Japanese teachers used to tell my teacher to open his hips he found many didn't understand as they saw the hips conceptually as that bowl or even the sides rather than what was meant.
Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #23
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well there is a specific instance (ie, a backache) in which the koshi is used for the lower back area, but generally they're just talking about the whole pelvic region.

Best,

Chris
Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 02:19 PM   #24
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,000
United_States
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Not so. In martial arts and in medicine which is far more pertinent to the discussion.

Funny thing is that tai chi also has a problem with peoples misunderstanding of a similar thing they call kua or cua ( I forget which is the right spelling).

The development of Koshi I would say is one of those fundamental 'secrets' hidden in plain sight and if you prefer a 'general' meaning for it then you will never get it.

Peace.G.
As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2012, 03:04 PM   #25
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: hips and shoulders

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
As I said, there are instances of use for the back region, but when most people (even martial artists) use it in reference to movement they're talking about the entire pelvis and waist combined.

You can make up your own usage for it, but Japanese people won't understand it.

The kua is something quite different.

Best,

Chris
Strange as it was Japanese who taught us it and my Japanese friend who demonstrated it. But there again they were martial artists and in fact Aikidoka not Hiroshi the local shopkeeper.

Anyway, until you can use it as such and know where else in martial arts it is used and which ones compare to how I use it here then there's no more to say really.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tenkan - advanced niall Techniques 13 06-25-2010 11:48 AM
Relaxing the hips Moses General 6 08-07-2006 08:32 AM
It's (not?) all in the hips theninthwave General 12 01-29-2006 04:49 PM
Kamae vs Shizentai (hips underneath) Ron Tisdale Techniques 53 03-30-2005 08:32 PM
Back foot flat? justinm General 44 09-02-2003 01:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate