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Old 07-14-2012, 10:53 AM   #26
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Being from the peanut galley, My definition of "aiki" was defined to me through Aikido, its practice, and watching Osensei films -based on my experience of coaching. Aiki definitions do change in regard to what subject is being talked about,like sport. But the principles are same even though the fields are different using different language to describe each activity's principles. The approach and application is what changes as the principles remain the same. Aikido approach and application doesn't work well in MMA, for instance. You have to change the language realizing applications and results are different. Some say Aiki is a single principle others say it is a skill set. In this discussion it is less complicated to go with it being one principle. My experience in other martial arts, sports, and MMA- dabbling in it and BSing with the guys- has helped me see a difficulty arises when terms and styles are mixed. When you use Aikido terminology and language to describe aiki and apply it to MMA. But if you use a common and not specialized language, such as using the language of science it creates much less confusion. I speak from experience on that one, learning the hard way. In a non contact sports context Golf and Aikido have allot in common, heck martial arts in general. But, don't expect martial arts to instantly be able to hit a ball. Don't expect golfers to be instantly adept martial artists. Both activities have much in common.

Last edited by Settokuryoku : 07-14-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:24 PM   #27
MM
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
Being from the peanut galley, My definition of "aiki" was defined to me through Aikido, its practice, and watching Osensei films -based on my experience of coaching. Aiki definitions do change in regard to what subject is being talked about,like sport. But the principles are same even though the fields are different using different language to describe each activity's principles. The approach and application is what changes as the principles remain the same. Aikido approach and application doesn't work well in MMA, for instance. You have to change the language realizing applications and results are different. Some say Aiki is a single principle others say it is a skill set. In this discussion it is less complicated to go with it being one principle. My experience in other martial arts, sports, and MMA- dabbling in it and BSing with the guys- has helped me see a difficulty arises when terms and styles are mixed. When you use Aikido terminology and language to describe aiki and apply it to MMA. But if you use a common and not specialized language, such as using the language of science it creates much less confusion. I speak from experience on that one, learning the hard way. In a non contact sports context Golf and Aikido have allot in common, heck martial arts in general. But, don't expect martial arts to instantly be able to hit a ball. Don't expect golfers to be instantly adept martial artists. Both activities have much in common.
IMO, you're defining "aiki" from Modern Aikido. The "aiki" in Modern Aikido is completely different than Morihei Ueshiba's aiki. Two different things. Sort of like equating a VW Beetle with an F-117 Stealth Fighter.

Everyone can learn how to drive a VW Beetle. It'll get you where you need to go. It's dependable and functional. Some beef it up with various other equipment items so it can be more competitive. But, not everyone pilots an F-117. It takes hard work and a different set of skills.

If you think differently, then ask yourself why:

Sagawa, Horikawa, Ueshiba, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata all were considered very good at 10-15 years of training. Remember, most of them didn't have very much hands on time with their teacher either. Compare that to all the teachers under Kisshomaru/Tohei and how many of them in 40 years have equaled the pre-war students of Ueshiba? Why not with 3-4 times the training years?

Perhaps read this article:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21445
And ask yourself why was Shirata different?

In the simplest of terms, the answer is Daito ryu aiki as taught by Takeda to a select few, who included Ueshiba Sagawa, and Horikawa. Those few, in turn, only taught a select few. Unlike other people who post that there is no secret -- aiki was THE secret. Ueshiba stated that Tenryu could not move him because he knew the secret of aiki. NOT technique. NOT timing. NOT bobbing and weaving. NOT modern sports principles. Something completely different.

The cup that is full is the closed box.
The cup that is on the pedestal is stagnation.
How can you tell that you don't know that you don't know?
Empty the cup and use it.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:58 PM   #28
DH
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
....... Unlike other people who post that there is no secret -- aiki was THE secret. Ueshiba stated that Tenryu could not move him because he knew the secret of aiki. NOT technique. NOT timing. NOT bobbing and weaving. NOT modern sports principles. Something completely different.
The more people keep assigning aiki as blending,,,the less likely they will ever be able to do so in pressured environments. And this recent teaching of making a four legged animal by.."making connection" is the wrong direction as well. As a method, it is more likely you will be reversed and controlled yourself, and you will not be the one to arrive first. Hence, for understanding what aiki is and how to train it, that mindset is full speed...............in the wrong direction.

Bobbing and weaving and evading and entering are great. They just have nothing to do with aiki. It's fighting principles. Some are better than others.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-14-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:50 PM   #29
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

I really enjoy coaching, it is a great profession. You get to see a variety of levels in talent and skill in players. The players that catch my eye are those not only who can deliver the skill, but have instinct. The ability to utilize strategy. In sports you have to also teach strategy along with skill. If not, well then your not doing your job as a coach, because skill and strategy work hand in hand. You can't afford to have your player(s) not understand and use strategy and expect to win no matter how much skill they have. Strategy is a component I really look for in players. 

When I first seen Osensei in that 1935 film, I was impressed with his ability to move strategically. His movements reminded me of bobbing and weaving. I thought this man had moves I could teach my players. His timing was really well executed. His ability to read his opponents and react. Realizing his innate talent, I wondered who coached him at the time. Later, I found out later who it was and more about Osensei's sword background, alas it made sense.

Fully aware of fight reality, I still love the old samurai movies, watching those choreographed movie fights. Stylistic fight scenes when well done are entertaining. Guilty as the next guy, you can't help to be a critic. I laugh to think about the time when I shoot of my mouth critiquing the fight scenes and being put in place by someone who schooled me, an 8th dan Kenjutsu/Kendo champion. It was a very valuable lesson to listen to what he had to say. Let me tell you, I was shocked to here him compliment Osensei's movements during randori. How Osensei reflected old school strategy used by the samurai to avoid the sword. I asked him, what did he think of how Takeda moved, was it similar to Osensei or was it different? It was an eye opener when he said Osensei blending and movements during randori where authentic. Too many people he said, think movies are true, but they aren't. They are movies. 

That is when I as a player. Now as a coach that really hits home. You can teach players skills, you can teach them strategy, but you can't teach them independently. It is fine to coach fixing a move or tweak a bad habit in players, it must be applicable and sensible to the game. Coaching without teaching applicable strategy, voids skill. I see that so much in coaching, and the players unaware of what they lack wonder why they don't win, and there skills don‘ t match up. That rests on the shoulders of a coach who has failed to understand the importance of and the use of strategy. I always value strategy and it's use. 


In Aikido or other martial arts, I see it happening too. Where the sensei focuses too much on one thing like skill or correcting errors. They over-looking the importance of the whole package. It isn't a fault executed purposefully on the sensei, it is one of those things not easily recognized. It's a slump thing, a trap thing, that people fall into. 99% of most senseis are in it, and don't even recognize it. The best way to fix it this and discuss it is over beer and a game of Texas hold'em debating first what was the best sports car ever made. I suggest if a person feels they are in that slump, that trap, is to look into the field of sport coaching and sports science. And then go have some beers. 

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Old 07-14-2012, 08:54 PM   #30
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

The quote by Wayne Gretzky somes up an idea the importance of strategy that shares with Aikido and MMA is an ear mark any great athlete of any sport.
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.

Tommy Lasorda said, The difference between the possible and the impossible lies in a person's determination. Great athletes have this mental attitude that helps them raise to the occasion to achieving their goal, to win. You can have all the skill in the world, but without determination it doesn't mean [a thing].

One of my favorites is by Pat Riley, If you have a positive attitude and constantly strive to give your best effort, eventually you will overcome your immediate problems and find you are ready for greater challenges. Another important attitude you find in great athletes or martial artists. You find the opposite in those who never become great.

The difference is I think many people think Aiki is just an tool, a weapon they pull out and use. It could be. It could be, for me Aiki is a word, a sound to describe something and it doesn't do that very well at all. A sound doesn't win a fight, what does is what a person does, a combination of mental attitude and the skill. To be great you need the talent. Talent is the ability to see and do things your opponents don't and can't do first. To see how all things come together and what that outcome will be as a result. So Ali's bobbing and weaving is just more than the act of moving in a pattern way. It was aiki. Just as Osensei in his way bobbed and weaved was aiki. I can't think that aiki being a very old Japanese word represents a complex theory and movement requiring specialized micro-instruction. No, it had to be simple and straight forward, it wasn't magic or some advance mathematical formula. Why, well as then and now we are governed by the same laws of physics. If I over complicate my coaching, it shuts down my players over burdening them. My goal is not to impress my players with words, but to bring the best performance out of them and their abilities.To challenge them to levels they didn't know they could reach. It is simple and doesn't need complex language. That is what leadership is about simply communication, being able to motivate, having the tools and skills to do so . With that said, If I could, the beer is on me.

Last edited by Settokuryoku : 07-14-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:33 AM   #31
gregstec
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Re: Aiki in MMA

There can really be no productive discussion of Aiki in MMA (or Aiki in anything) with so many differing views of what Aiki is - there is just no single point of reference to use as a baseline in the discussion.

As I was reading some of the last posts in this thread, I was thinking about why the differences exist. After I read Mark's post about the 'Secret', things started to become clear. Aiki is a skill that can be taught and learned, but it was not taught to all, if it was, it would not be a secret So how best to hide a secret? let's just place it in plain sight To do that, the holders of the secret probably came up with two meaning of aiki that were close enough in context to be logically used in the same conversation but having two entirely different meanings, with the public meaning of aiki being morphed into some form of concept, principle, or philosophy and the private real meaning of the aiki skill was not discussed outside the group that knew the secret. As public conversation and belief of Aiki drifted more away from the real meaning, I am sure the holders of the secret were very pleased and did nothing to stop the drift

Of course, I have absolutely no evidence to support this conspiracy theory, but it does make for entertaining thought

Greg
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:26 AM   #32
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
Being from the peanut galley, My definition of "aiki" was defined to me through Aikido, its practice, and watching Osensei films -based on my experience of coaching. Aiki definitions do change in regard to what subject is being talked about,like sport. But the principles are same even though the fields are different using different language to describe each activity's principles. The approach and application is what changes as the principles remain the same. Aikido approach and application doesn't work well in MMA, for instance. You have to change the language realizing applications and results are different. Some say Aiki is a single principle others say it is a skill set. In this discussion it is less complicated to go with it being one principle. My experience in other martial arts, sports, and MMA- dabbling in it and BSing with the guys- has helped me see a difficulty arises when terms and styles are mixed. When you use Aikido terminology and language to describe aiki and apply it to MMA. But if you use a common and not specialized language, such as using the language of science it creates much less confusion. I speak from experience on that one, learning the hard way. In a non contact sports context Golf and Aikido have allot in common, heck martial arts in general. But, don't expect martial arts to instantly be able to hit a ball. Don't expect golfers to be instantly adept martial artists. Both activities have much in common.
Aiki is definable and thus teachable. How do you define aiki, and how do you teach it? Did it jive with how Sagawa, Takeda, Ueshiba, etc. saw aiki and taught it?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:53 AM   #33
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

I think there is no productivity in such discussions because there is no definite definition for what it is. This opens things up for allot of subjectivity, and speculation. Let us suppose one day, some early period Samurai was practicing with his sword making a cut in a way he never did before. He stopped hacking through his target, and instead made a cut. A movement that was effortless and got greater results. He felt the difference in his performance. It was more efficient. It was clear to his fellow samurai what he is doing differently, but the performance results differed greatly. Our Samurai friend attributes his new skill Aiki. In sports, athletes experience the same thing. When it all comes together and they do something spectacular. Like when Babe Ruth called his shot. It happens all the time in sports, like the full court swish. The impossible catch or shot. The consistent performance of any great athlete.

We get too hung up on labels and terms, precisely defining things, fitting them to subject. We over do it in figuring out to the nth what they are and what they aren't. We overlook in that case what really is important, the performance, the result. It is a type of perceptual blindness. There is no secrets to be taught, or withheld. There is no secret to say Tiger Woods' swing, or how Babe Ruth hit a home run. In sports it is all out there. There are no secrets to success. Yet, those of us in martial arts believe there are secrets, because we are told early on there is. Because we are taught to be depend on the instructor to tells us how to do things. That the sensei has all knowledge and doles it out just at the right time and stage of training. We then are highly susceptible in believing that there are secrets. We are told there are secrets because those telling us that know the skills and information they withhold are simple to achieve. Think about it, they are not super human in anyway. No, they are human, just like us. Difference is they lead us to believe that they have something special having something we don’t...say Aiki!

A mysterious word aiki as defined by those Lorel Latorilla suggests have aiki and Osensei is vaguely and ambiguously define to us. Being students who are waiting with baited breath for the next morsel of information to complete the puzzle, we are instruction dependent, and our development and performance is at their mercy and whim. That isn't a good thing for the student. A great thing for the instructor who benefits the most from it, and those who profit from it. The sensei who plays the aiki game and the hide and seek with the information like a magician, is worshipped. He/she has loyal dedicated fan base of students holding such a sensei in awe. The sensei gains a reputation. As long as the sensei has devoted students he/she is important, he/she has a position, is wanted. If that sensei acts like a coach they have a short shelf life. The short turn around of students deprives the sensei of the fame and reputation, he/she has to disseminates all the knowledge he/she processes, as the reputation then is based on the students performance. There also isn’t loyal dependent student base holding up the pedestal the sensei is comfortable on. If sports took that angle of martial arts where coaches played games with instruction, knowledge, and their players, we wouldn't have great athletes, we would have sports. We would have struggling athletes never realizing their full potential constantly waiting for that next piece of the puzzle. We would have games to play, or great athletes doing great things. It would only be the coaches who would perform well, and what sense is there to that? There are no secrets, we are told there are and that is the biggest hinderance to all of us. 

The knowledge we need is all around us, at our finger tips. Not hidden in plain sight. But rather staring us in the face, yet we don’t see it. A perceptional blindness.

If we don't think there are secrets like in sports, we become autonomous reaching our potential performance. Now that doesn't mean everyone will be a great athlete, talent plays a huge role in that. You can't turn everyone into a superstar. Realizing that the knowledge is out there all around us, at our finger tips, and that knowledge is obtainable rather then hidden like athletes your performance will improve. Aiki isn't gold, it isn't the mother load find. That when you get it, it magically transform you into something special. It is a word often used to keep people dependent on instruction. Performance is a result of two things hard work/practice, and self evaluation/correcting mistakes and the right mental attitude.

It is said that Osensei skill is unparalleled in Aikido. Why is that? It is plain as day. He had more talent than those he taught, and he with held information. He also insured this by default or design when he allowed people to teach before they had complete knowledge, early in their careers. This doesn't happen in sports, coaches are properly trained if they are to be taken seriously. They require complete knowledge of the game and how to coach players. The difference between a bad and good coach is another subject. What I am taking about is coaches who are taken seriously, as coaches none of the tools are with held from them to coach. A good coach will not withhold any knowledge from their players. What good is a coach who out performs his players? A losing coach. A selfish coach who has lost sight of the big picture.

Now here we are in perceptual blindness arguing over a what is Aiki. A term that simply describes not something, not the mother load, not the magic bullet, instead it describes someone who has put it all together, whose performance is the combination of skill and talent. No different then any other great athlete who became that way from hard work and with the right mental attitude that went beyond his fellow players. An athlete who is autonomous dedicated to developing their performance beyond others. Because they are never satisfied with their performance and always challenging themselves. That is aiki. That is the secret those aiki masters including Osensei keep hidden. Aiki isn't a puzzle piece kept secret that can be reviled and granted at will, even if someone wants you to think so.

I understand a person may think Aiki is a puzzle piece because they lack knowledge that will improve their skill. But, the truth is that the knowledge for improvement is in sports and sports science sitting on a book shelf. Rather than being shrouded in metaphorical and obscure language used to keep the illusion aiki alive. Sliva and many top MMA fighters, and athletes use aiki, though in an application different than Aikido. Though because of sensei's playing games with their students, students are lead to believe aiki is a magic bullet and something special, thus proprietary. It isn't. It is the cumulation of an outstanding work ethic, talent and the right mental attitude that produces improved performance. Because when that doesn't exist any coaching or knowledge is a waste of time. A truth that comes from years of playing and coaching.

Last edited by Settokuryoku : 07-15-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:13 PM   #34
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Hello,

Sorry I dont have time to read what you wrote. What is it exactly you teach? Is it the same aiki as Sagawa, Takeda, or Ueshiba? If Silva and other MMA fighters use it,then you must be able to define aiki and it must be teachable correct?

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Old 07-15-2012, 12:46 PM   #35
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Re: Aiki in MMA

There are really no secrets...just an awful lot of people that have wasted a lot of training time doing stuff they are lead to believe will lead to something by those that while they may be able to do even.....can't teach it to you.

If you get with someone that can both show you and then teach you, well as many have said, it becomes clear and the rest of this discussion becomes a moot point.

The ones that tend to carry on the conversation are those that have not, or cannot do. At least this has been my experience.

Where I tend to separate myself from those that tend to specialize in this stuff, or spend all there time doing it, is I believe the training has realitive value as far as skills are concerned.

I could be wrong, but..everyone chooses their own ways and priorities.

What you won't find is my arguing about what it is any or isn't any longer...once you get hands on with someone that strips away all the pseudo martial, stylistic, and tactics
Crap, and focuses on the actual development and demonstration of this stuff...well again, you see it for what it is and begin to think...if you have half a brain...."how does this fit into my daily life?"

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Old 07-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #36
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hello,

Sorry I dont have time to read what you wrote. What is it exactly you teach? Is it the same aiki as Sagawa, Takeda, or Ueshiba? If Silva and other MMA fighters use it,then you must be able to define aiki and it must be teachable correct?
I don't see these days how you can operate at a high level and not have some notions of what we label as aiki. Even Silva.

However, I think it is accidental most likely with only the best rising to the top and getting lucky, or maybe they have a really good coach that sets the conditions for these things to occur. Can they replicate it to a high degree, can they teach, can the isolate?

How do they ensure that large groups of those that apply the lessons, guidance, and formula achieve the same skills...or is it implicitly learned, or accidental?

If you do learn it...then how valuable is it realitive to other aspects of ability such as speed, strength, athleticism, or technique...how about the concepts of OODA, and experience...you know being able to think five moves ahead?

I value and I have been impressed by all those I have encountered that do IS....and I think there is great merit in the training. Again, for me it has been about realitive value.

I have found in my own experience that what little I have has been helpful to me in my own daily life and on the mat.

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Old 07-15-2012, 07:48 PM   #37
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Often I will tell my athletes to read something on their off days. Not being perfect I make a reading suggestion because the author explains it better or different than I. Aikido Journal has a blog called "Schism and Disharmony -- The Bumpy Road to Aiki," by Alister Gillies http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...es/#more-20649
My only criticism is it is a blog is a blog. It is too short not able to give more details. If I was going to define aiki in the framework of Aikido this would be it.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:28 PM   #38
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
Often I will tell my athletes to read something on their off days. Not being perfect I make a reading suggestion because the author explains it better or different than I. Aikido Journal has a blog called "Schism and Disharmony -- The Bumpy Road to Aiki," by Alister Gillies http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...es/#more-20649
My only criticism is it is a blog is a blog. It is too short not able to give more details. If I was going to define aiki in the framework of Aikido this would be it.
Interesting, since much of that blog has its roots in some of the folks who are disagreeing with you here...

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:32 PM   #39
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I don't see these days how you can operate at a high level and not have some notions of what we label as aiki. Even Silva.

However, I think it is accidental most likely with only the best rising to the top and getting lucky, or maybe they have a really good coach that sets the conditions for these things to occur. Can they replicate it to a high degree, can they teach, can the isolate?

How do they ensure that large groups of those that apply the lessons, guidance, and formula achieve the same skills...or is it implicitly learned, or accidental?

If you do learn it...then how valuable is it realitive to other aspects of ability such as speed, strength, athleticism, or technique...how about the concepts of OODA, and experience...you know being able to think five moves ahead?

I value and I have been impressed by all those I have encountered that do IS....and I think there is great merit in the training. Again, for me it has been about realitive value.

I have found in my own experience that what little I have has been helpful to me in my own daily life and on the mat.
Hi Kevin,
Nobody is saying those other things are not important. But if "aiki" is another thing to add to the toolbox, then it is very valuable. If there is great merit in the training, there is great meritin in the training. It's as simple as that. My issue is that some people want to define aiki in the way they want to define it. There are many people out there claiming to teach aiki, including Mr. Stark. I want to know what his definition of aiki is, how he teaches it, and how it jives with the definitions of the people that characterized their arts with a thing called aiki and how it jives with the training paradigms.

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:45 PM   #40
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Hey Lukas Stark,

How is Philipp Buck Burgess?

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Old 07-16-2012, 03:52 AM   #41
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Re: Aiki in MMA

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin,
Nobody is saying those other things are not important. But if "aiki" is another thing to add to the toolbox, then it is very valuable. If there is great merit in the training, there is great meritin in the training. It's as simple as that. My issue is that some people want to define aiki in the way they want to define it. There are many people out there claiming to teach aiki, including Mr. Stark. I want to know what his definition of aiki is, how he teaches it, and how it jives with the definitions of the people that characterized their arts with a thing called aiki and how it jives with the training paradigms.
Lorel...I am with you and agree. As I stated, if you have experienced it, there is no question about what we are talking about. While the topic is about "aiki" it was very specific to discuss how Silva is demonstrating it, which is purely in a physical realm...and NOT in the realm of spiritual, ethics, or any other aspect or quality that gets ascribed to Aikido.

You and I are on the same wave length..sorry didn't mean to imply we were not.

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Old 07-16-2012, 04:13 AM   #42
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki in MMA

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Lorel...I am with you and agree. As I stated, if you have experienced it, there is no question about what we are talking about. While the topic is about "aiki" it was very specific to discuss how Silva is demonstrating it, which is purely in a physical realm...and NOT in the realm of spiritual, ethics, or any other aspect or quality that gets ascribed to Aikido.

You and I are on the same wave length..sorry didn't mean to imply we were not.
Thats the problem. We can watch the video and say Silva is expressing aiki, because his movements says things to our eyes that suggests he is expressing aiki. I'm still interested in someone expressing how what hes doing is aiki in words.

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Old 07-16-2012, 06:02 AM   #43
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Re: Aiki in MMA

agreed. I asked the same thing earlier in this thread. Not that I don't think he is or isn't....just that it is one thing to believe that he is and state that empirically. Once you make that statement, you need to provide an objective assessment so we can all understand. Otherwise it gets all muddy.

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Old 07-16-2012, 08:49 AM   #44
Settokuryoku
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Re: Aiki in MMA

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Interesting, since much of that blog has its roots in some of the folks who are disagreeing with you here...

Best,

Chris
I was trying to make peace, find common ground. Why argue pointlessly and ignorantly, why not tell someone in a way they understand, you understand their point, respecting that, and at the same time answer their questions respectfully. I wasn't going to bring up the things I disagreed with in the blog. By doing so I would have really gotten into thread drift, worse open myself up to inductive discussions. Why shoot myself in the foot?

Aiki like the article said isn' a proprietary word, "When reviewing the literature, it does seem to mean different things to different people." The definition isn't a strict one pertaining specifics. Because the term isn't cut in stone, different understanding arise and disagreements follow. I wouldn't use the word glibly to the use of the word aiki, as the blog did. Rather, I see it is being too broadly applied, and used far too proprietarily. In terms of the broadness, the word runs along the same lines as the words like, unique, and genius. Never the less that is the nature of language. The underlining point here is the term aiki doesn't specific thing or belong to anyone on or art.

Why than can't some people afford the idea that someone like Silva can't utilize aiki? I have already answered that question. So of course, Silva can use aiki, lots of people do, and I have explained why that is true too. No sense in going over old ground.

Being a professional coach, an athlete and studying Aikido gives me a more liberal understanding of aiki. I have no problem with saying Silva or others have aiki. I have no problem saying aiki in my mind isn't a thing, but instead having it all come together consistently. Here is where I think people have trouble. It is a matter of the application and the results of that application. We are too hung up specific application and results. If it doesn't fit in that box, it isn't aiki.

I don't see things that way, my profession and experience tells me things don't fit into neat little boxes. Besides, putting things into boxes when being discussed leads to fruitless arguments. It also provides opportunities for exploitation by people looking for personal and financial gain.They require things to be in boxes. You can't sell something that isn't unique, it has lesser value. You can't be unique and special if others have it too.

The point has come down too for me is to analyze Silva's performance and from there we can identify his use of aiki.

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Old 07-16-2012, 09:35 AM   #45
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Re: Aiki in MMA

The point has come down too for me is to analyze Silva's performance and from there we can identify his use of aiki. Meaning it is my personal thought Silva took from Seagal and made it his own. Caveat is it doesn't mean other fighters or people didn't come to develop aiki with or without labeling it such. It doesn't mean Silva hasn't used it differently than what Aikido people are accustom to seeing it employed.

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Old 07-16-2012, 09:40 AM   #46
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Re: Aiki in MMA

What's up Buck? Or should I say, hi Samurai Jack?
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:21 AM   #47
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Re: Aiki in MMA

I don't understand the premise that because Silva is an elite level combat sport athlete, he has to know (or at least have some idea) about aiki. Are we talking about Takeda and Ueshiba's aiki, or yet another made-up personal definition? I'm not saying Silva has it or not, I'm only challenging the idea that because he's good at what he does, he has to know or have aiki to any degree. The aiki that came from Takeda and Ueshiba is hardly something you can get by chance or just by training hard in whatever, and suddenly at some high performance level "aiki" will manifest. I mean, dedicated budoka who were actively and specifically looking for aiki even under some of the best aiki exponents... missed it. Exponents of aiki-focused arts that are supposed to be authorities, are missing it. It's hard to come by, hard to get, harder still at a level usable for fighting, very rare. Then why would this skill suddenly appear in athletes and disciplines that were not actively training it or researching it?

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #48
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Re: Aiki in MMA

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The more people keep assigning aiki as blending,,,the less likely they will ever be able to do so in pressured environments. And this recent teaching of making a four legged animal by.."making connection" is the wrong direction as well. As a method, it is more likely you will be reversed and controlled yourself, and you will not be the one to arrive first. Hence, for understanding what aiki is and how to train it, that mindset is full speed...............in the wrong direction.

Bobbing and weaving and evading and entering are great. They just have nothing to do with aiki. It's fighting principles. Some are better than others.
Dan
Hi Dan,

Your comment on the "four legged animal" caught my eye on a couple levels. 1) Your statement that it's a recent teaching - recent as in you've only just heard of it or recent in that it's a new way to describe some things? 2) Your analysis of it as a method - could you be more specific what you mean by method, as in a fighting method? A method to drill a specific skill? Something else? 3) Were you referring to the four legged animal mindset as being full speed in the wrong direction or the more general "sports approach" that this thread is mostly about?

Apologies to the OP if this seems thread drift, but I wanted to clarify what Dan meant as he's brought up words similar to these before and particularly here while I don't think it's related at all to the original thread, I am curious as to the rationale in the commentary. I actually think the "making a connection" notion is quite related to IS, aiki and sports performance, depending on how you implement it.

Anyways, FWIW.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:50 PM   #49
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Re: Aiki in MMA

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Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
I was trying to make peace, find common ground. Why argue pointlessly and ignorantly, why not tell someone in a way they understand, you understand their point, respecting that, and at the same time answer their questions respectfully. I wasn't going to bring up the things I disagreed with in the blog. By doing so I would have really gotten into thread drift, worse open myself up to inductive discussions. Why shoot myself in the foot?

Aiki like the article said isn' a proprietary word, "When reviewing the literature, it does seem to mean different things to different people." The definition isn't a strict one pertaining specifics. Because the term isn't cut in stone, different understanding arise and disagreements follow. I wouldn't use the word glibly to the use of the word aiki, as the blog did. Rather, I see it is being too broadly applied, and used far too proprietarily. In terms of the broadness, the word runs along the same lines as the words like, unique, and genius. Never the less that is the nature of language. The underlining point here is the term aiki doesn't specific thing or belong to anyone on or art.

Why than can't some people afford the idea that someone like Silva can't utilize aiki? I have already answered that question. So of course, Silva can use aiki, lots of people do, and I have explained why that is true too. No sense in going over old ground.

Being a professional coach, an athlete and studying Aikido gives me a more liberal understanding of aiki. I have no problem with saying Silva or others have aiki. I have no problem saying aiki in my mind isn't a thing, but instead having it all come together consistently. Here is where I think people have trouble. It is a matter of the application and the results of that application. We are too hung up specific application and results. If it doesn't fit in that box, it isn't aiki.

I don't see things that way, my profession and experience tells me things don't fit into neat little boxes. Besides, putting things into boxes when being discussed leads to fruitless arguments. It also provides opportunities for exploitation by people looking for personal and financial gain.They require things to be in boxes. You can't sell something that isn't unique, it has lesser value. You can't be unique and special if others have it too.

The point has come down too for me is to analyze Silva's performance and from there we can identify his use of aiki.
Good point Buck aka Jack!

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Old 07-16-2012, 10:00 PM   #50
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Re: Aiki in MMA

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Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
Aiki like the article said isn' a proprietary word, "When reviewing the literature, it does seem to mean different things to different people." The definition isn't a strict one pertaining specifics. Because the term isn't cut in stone, different understanding arise and disagreements follow... I have no problem with saying Silva or others have aiki. I have no problem saying aiki in my mind isn't a thing, but instead having it all come together consistently. Here is where I think people have trouble. It is a matter of the application and the results of that application. We are too hung up specific application and results. If it doesn't fit in that box, it isn't aiki.

I don't see things that way, my profession and experience tells me things don't fit into neat little boxes. Besides, putting things into boxes when being discussed leads to fruitless arguments. It also provides opportunities for exploitation by people looking for personal and financial gain.They require things to be in boxes. You can't sell something that isn't unique, it has lesser value. You can't be unique and special if others have it too.

The point has come down too for me is to analyze Silva's performance and from there we can identify his use of aiki.
Trouble with your approach is that everything gets flattened out into mush. The reason why some are insisting on a particular definition of "aiki" is because they care about what it signifies: a set of body skills which are not common, are not easy to come by, but were demonstrated and taught by Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba Morihei. (Who called them "aiki." Hence the name.)

Allowing "aiki" to mean something like "martially effective movement", which appears to be all you mean by it, doesn't get you out of any boxes. It just makes it impossible to talk about the truly interesting distinctions: Does Silva win the same way Ueshiba won? Does he leverage the same skills or is he using different skills? How are they different? How does that show up in his movement?

It also makes it impossible for you to address Kevin's hypothesis on his own terms. Is it true that you can't get to a high level of martial performance without some level of aiki skills, as Ueshiba and Takeda defined them? Why or why not? What markers could we observe to provide evidence one way or the other? You can't even enter the conversation, because you've turned the distinctions that matter into mush.

Yeah, we can all join hands and sing kumbaya and declare your definition of aiki to be as good as anybody's. But then the word becomes useless, and the concept the word stands for is lost. This has already happened, almost completely. Which makes it a matter of some urgency to recover the word, the concept, and the skills they represent.

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