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Old 07-10-2012, 12:40 PM   #51
Rob Watson
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The best fundamental exercise to do for Aikido is from a standing position, sitting down in seiza and standing up from seiza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIQO7y1rEqc

Do this for 15 minutes or longer 4-5 days a week.

dps
My one and only seminar with Tamura sensei I recall he made a big deal out of being able to 'rise like smoke' from seiza. It takes a long time to come to appreciate seiza.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:03 PM   #52
Chris Li
 
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
http://shindai.com/japanese-terms/
Kamae: A posture or stance of readiness. In each kamae there are different positions for the hands or weapon. Jodan " high position; Chudan " middle position; Gedan " lower position.

http://www.west.net/~aikido/aikido/vocab.html
Kamae
A posture or stance either with or without a weapon. kamae may also connote proper distance (ma ai) with respect to one's partner. Although ``kamae'' generally refers to a physical stance, there is an important parallel in aikido between one's physical and one's psychological bearing. Adopting a strong physical stance helps to promote the correlative adoption of a strong psychological attitude. It is important to try so far as possible to maintain a positive and strong mental bearing in aikido.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamae
Kamae
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Kamae
Japanese name
Kanji: 構え
Hiragana: かまえ
[show]Transliterations

Kamae (構え?) is a Japanese term used in martial arts and traditional theater. It translates approximately to "posture". The Kanji of this word means "base".

Kamae is to be differentiated from the word tachi (立ち?), used in Japanese martial arts to mean stance. While tachi (pronounced dachi when used in a compound) refers to the position of the body from the waist down, kamae refers to the posture of the entire body, as well as encompassing one's mental posture (i.e., one's attitude). These connected mental and physical aspects of readiness may be referred to individually as kokoro-gamae (心構え?) and mi-gamae (身構え?), respectively.

dps
Well, you can use "kamae" in the sense of "posture" if the sense of the usage is "take an aggressive posture" - "take an aggressive stance".

OTOH, you wouldn't normally use it in the sense of the shape of your back or "I have lousy posture".

They're not interchangeable.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-11-2012, 11:28 PM   #53
dps
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, you can use "kamae" in the sense of "posture" if the sense of the usage is "take an aggressive posture" - "take an aggressive stance".
Kamae does not have to be aggressive.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OTOH, you wouldn't normally use it in the sense of the shape of your back or "I have lousy posture".

They're not interchangeable.

Best,

Chris
Yes you would, the shape of your back could be bad kamae.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:23 AM   #54
Janet Rosen
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

David, I think you are misunderstanding. Chris' use of "aggressive posture" is not to say kamae is aggressive but as a usage example that the term kamae refers to a specific English usage of the word posture, which does encompass multiple meanings - in this case assuming a stance.

Posture also refers to an inherent structure - when I am in kamae, when I sit at my desk or walk down the street there is how everything hangs together - the stuff I'm working on changing my getting Rolfed.

Theoretically one can have lovely posture and lousy kamae and vice versa (having in mind a skilled martial artist with a skeletal defect).

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:51 AM   #55
Chris Li
 
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Kamae does not have to be aggressive.

Yes you would, the shape of your back could be bad kamae.
Janet got it - it's just an example of usage.

Anyway, as I said, "kamae" and "posture" (姿勢) are not interchangeable in Japanese, even though there are usages where they cross over.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:25 AM   #56
JJF
 
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
http://shindai.com/japanese-terms/
Kamae: A posture or stance of readiness. In each kamae there are different positions for the hands or weapon. Jodan -- high position; Chudan -- middle position; Gedan -- lower position.

http://www.west.net/~aikido/aikido/vocab.html
Kamae
A posture or stance either with or without a weapon. kamae may also connote proper distance (ma ai) with respect to one's partner. Although ``kamae'' generally refers to a physical stance, there is an important parallel in aikido between one's physical and one's psychological bearing. Adopting a strong physical stance helps to promote the correlative adoption of a strong psychological attitude. It is important to try so far as possible to maintain a positive and strong mental bearing in aikido.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamae
Kamae
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Kamae
Japanese name
Kanji: 構え
Hiragana: かまえ
[show]Transliterations

Kamae (構え?) is a Japanese term used in martial arts and traditional theater. It translates approximately to "posture". The Kanji of this word means "base".

Kamae is to be differentiated from the word tachi (立ち?), used in Japanese martial arts to mean stance. While tachi (pronounced dachi when used in a compound) refers to the position of the body from the waist down, kamae refers to the posture of the entire body, as well as encompassing one's mental posture (i.e., one's attitude). These connected mental and physical aspects of readiness may be referred to individually as kokoro-gamae (心構え?) and mi-gamae (身構え?), respectively.

dps
David: I think I understand what you are writing here. It seems you want to point out that I am not clear in my distinction of the difference between kamae and stance. Thanks for pointing it out. I think we see things closer than what I first realised. What made me misunderstand your post was what Philip wrote. It seemed to me he wants to practice standing in kamae by himself in order to prepare for aikido class... and my comment was more to him than to you I guess.

What I tried to express is, that kamae sometimes is used as a term for 'physical stance' more than as a word for the state of physical readiness and mental preparedness. Also the way I use the word 'posture' in my post was ment to be long along the lines of 'the way we carry ourselves and our body'.. Including the notion of kokyo in our walk and the grounded sensation in each step. I guess that's what you explained in a different way as being an integral part of the term Kamae.

My point was that the part of kamae which I call posture is important just like you describe it. Keep you balance and move in a way where you don't loose your center or contact to uke. The mental readiness part of kamae I would also expect to be a very central part of the teaching of all senseis.

On the other hand the part of Kamae being 'a beginning stance' is of less importance in some dojos/styles than in others.

I hope I explained the details a little better this time

JJ

- Jrgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:32 AM   #57
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
Jrgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
What I tried to express is, that kamae sometimes is used as a term for 'physical stance' more than as a word for the state of physical readiness and mental preparedness. Also the way I use the word 'posture' in my post was ment to be long along the lines of 'the way we carry ourselves and our body'.. Including the notion of kokyo in our walk and the grounded sensation in each step. I guess that's what you explained in a different way as being an integral part of the term Kamae.
I would use the term Zanshin for that.

I was once talking to an Aikikai Shihan I admire about the fact that in Shodokan there is no kamae per se rather shizentai (natural posture). His comment was that kamae is really beginners practice and eventually we are supposed to move away from it. Different teaching methods but one of the problems with assuming a particular kamae is that you limit your responses.

Not sure what this has to do with time in rank but there you go.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:23 PM   #58
James Sawers
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

I understand your frustration with the answers you were getting to your questions. I may have contributed to that myself on another thread when I questioned getting a black-belt in about a year. I had completely forgotten about the senshusei program in Yoshinkan aikido. I've even read the book "Angry White Pajamas", I think it was called. Though I admit I did have some questions about a participant achieving a black-belt and teaching certificate after only a year. Personally, I would not want that person as my teacher. But with that said, I think you may have already answered your own question with the research you did on the various websites you visited. They each, I believe, you said, listed the hours/days required to achieve certain rankings, including black-belt. As was mentioned by others, these hours/days are usually guidelines. With these acquired hours/days, you will usually need your sensei's consent/approval to test as well. That's the simple answer, but it does, I think answer your question as to how long it will take to get a black-belt in aikido. Your point about intensity is also well taken. The intensity of training can make a difference, but whatever system you eventually try, the minimum hours/days are usually declared for each ranking. So, if you have those hours/days and your sensei's consent, you can test (if your sensei gives consent, he/she usually has confidence that you will pass).

I think that part of the frustration you may have perceived in some of the answers you received is that, as you train, more and more, you realize that it is not always that simple. But, you gotta start somewhere.....

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Old 07-17-2012, 06:55 PM   #59
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
I understand your frustration with the answers you were getting to your questions. I may have contributed to that myself on another thread when I questioned getting a black-belt in about a year. I had completely forgotten about the senshusei program in Yoshinkan aikido. I've even read the book "Angry White Pajamas", I think it was called. Though I admit I did have some questions about a participant achieving a black-belt and teaching certificate after only a year. Personally, I would not want that person as my teacher. But with that said, I think you may have already answered your own question with the research you did on the various websites you visited. They each, I believe, you said, listed the hours/days required to achieve certain rankings, including black-belt. As was mentioned by others, these hours/days are usually guidelines. With these acquired hours/days, you will usually need your sensei's consent/approval to test as well. That's the simple answer, but it does, I think answer your question as to how long it will take to get a black-belt in aikido. Your point about intensity is also well taken. The intensity of training can make a difference, but whatever system you eventually try, the minimum hours/days are usually declared for each ranking. So, if you have those hours/days and your sensei's consent, you can test (if your sensei gives consent, he/she usually has confidence that you will pass).

I think that part of the frustration you may have perceived in some of the answers you received is that, as you train, more and more, you realize that it is not always that simple. But, you gotta start somewhere.....
Man, this thread has derailed so much! And even though I felt I made such a clear point in my opening post, that this was NOT something restricted to this forum or Aikido, people seem to have taken it as such. Then this evolved into what type of training I should do before starting Aikido (where did THAT come from?), and then evolved into yet again assuming that I just want a black belt - something to this day I still don't know where people are getting from.

And yes, the book is called Angry White Pyjamas. So far I have decided not to read it, since I have lived in Tokyo before (and have become somewhat of a "foreign civil rights" activist on YouTube, in some ways). I read the book also dealt with how he viewed Japan as a newcomer, and I think that particular aspect would just end up annoying me. But I think I'll get around to it at some point.

Yes, I agree that a teaching certificate shouldn't be the same as Shodan. Certainly, being able to efficiently teach something to a student, and being able to perform it flawlessly yourself, is two different things.

One reason I have asked about how ranks transfers between dojos and organisations, is not because I'm fixated on "holding a big rank" between jumps. Rather (and I have pointed this out in the past), I want to avoid unnecessary problems in teaching for different things and grades and ranks.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:00 PM   #60
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
One reason I have asked about how ranks transfers between dojos and organisations, is not because I'm fixated on "holding a big rank" between jumps. Rather (and I have pointed this out in the past), I want to avoid unnecessary problems in teaching for different things and grades and ranks.
I think this is where most of the confusion arises. In every dojo I have trained in (4 styles, 2 countries) there is no distinction between what is taught to people at different ranks. The higher ranks are just better at it, that's all.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:27 PM   #61
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I think this is where most of the confusion arises. In every dojo I have trained in (4 styles, 2 countries) there is no distinction between what is taught to people at different ranks. The higher ranks are just better at it, that's all.
If that is indeed the case for the average Aikido dojo, that would certainly explain a lot of the miscommunication (and I'd be grumpy no one told me before now! LOL ). When I was training Shotokan Karate, for instance, it was very much divided up into teaching you what you were expected to get at your specific rank. For each new belt, a new kata was added, for instance. You wouldn't train that before you reached the appropriate rank. Same with some kicks and punches. So if your rank didn't transfer between different dojos, that could cause some annoying "retraining" of techniques and katas you would already have done for ages, and in some cases were no longer of any real use to you.

But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Yoshinkan set up this way too? I thought one of the main reasons Yoshinkan became, well, Yoshinkan, was that they more specifically divided the training up into segments?
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:43 PM   #62
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
If that is indeed the case for the average Aikido dojo, that would certainly explain a lot of the miscommunication (and I'd be grumpy no one told me before now! LOL ). When I was training Shotokan Karate, for instance, it was very much divided up into teaching you what you were expected to get at your specific rank. For each new belt, a new kata was added, for instance. You wouldn't train that before you reached the appropriate rank. Same with some kicks and punches. So if your rank didn't transfer between different dojos, that could cause some annoying "retraining" of techniques and katas you would already have done for ages, and in some cases were no longer of any real use to you.

But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Yoshinkan set up this way too? I thought one of the main reasons Yoshinkan became, well, Yoshinkan, was that they more specifically divided the training up into segments?
Well, unfortunately Yoshinkan is one of the few styles I haven't trained in. I know that they are a lot more organised in their approach, but I'm not sure if they go to the extent of the Shotokan dojo you mentioned.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:48 AM   #63
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
since I have lived in Tokyo before (and have become somewhat of a "foreign civil rights" activist on YouTube, in some ways).
?

Quote:
I read the book also dealt with how he viewed Japan as a newcomer, and I think that particular aspect would just end up annoying me.
Why? If you're not Japanese, this is what everyone does. You've done it, if you've been to Japan. No-one turns up in a foreign country with a different culture and is instantly familiar with it all.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:15 PM   #64
Basia Halliop
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Re: A word on Time Trained and Ranking

Quote:
I think this is where most of the confusion arises. In every dojo I have trained in (4 styles, 2 countries) there is no distinction between what is taught to people at different ranks. The higher ranks are just better at it, that's all.
Yeah, every dojo I've been at has been like that, too.

Personally, it never would have occurred to me to say anything about that because never having trained in any other martial art, I had no idea that was different in other arts!
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