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Old 07-06-2012, 06:59 AM   #1926
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 404
United Kingdom
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;
Quote:
Matthew Lim wrote: View Post
...If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are.
Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:35 PM   #1927
Kifusion
Dojo: Ki Fusion
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Australia
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
There is something to be said for not just grabbing someone and trying to man-handle them around. And in not tensing up everything at once and making yourself unable to move. However, people don't feel strength, they feel force. It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.

It's like if someone grabs your wrist to stop you moving it forwards - if you hold your wrist straight and just try and push into them it's very hard - if you rotate your wrist it's fairly easy. If they rotate their wrist the other way it's hard again. Nothing to do with ki, just different muscle groups with different degrees of tension being put through them.

I suspect a lot of the problem people have with the idea of strength is that they think it should feel like they're putting a lot of effort in. And of course to feel like you're putting a lot of effort in, frequently, you have to tension opposing muscle groups to get enough resistance to push against - which results in less overall force being generated in the desired direction.
Good point of view. at the same time it does teach us how to blend with the other persons energy as opposed to clashing with it.

The static gripping that is usually thought at the dojo looks like it is has no martial application from another persons persepctive. That is true when looking at what is likely to happen in the real world, however over time these static gripping (or ki exercises as described by my sensei) will help you in all other techniques. With enough Ki cultivated over time, you will be amazed at what you can do later on.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #1928
Kifusion
Dojo: Ki Fusion
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Australia
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;

Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.
Yes I meant sawari waza as well as katate-tori without atemi (or striking).
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:50 PM   #1929
Kifusion
Dojo: Ki Fusion
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Australia
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
A lot of bad mouthing of shomen uchi. . .

I think that a lack of understanding of shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, both on the raise and cut, greatly contribute to the difficulty that so many aikidoists seem to encounter in fielding strikes of all kinds.

In fact, I think that one could safely call shomen uchi the most basic movement of the hands in aikido.
Yes i agree that many people do not understand the reasons for training against yokomen and shomen attacks. The reason for training againsts duch attacks are to train you not to "avoid" the attack as attackers will follow you the moment they see you move off the "centre line" prematurely.

I found that entering in (irimi) and moving your opponent off the centre line (after the attack) at the last moment is one of the best ways to deal with it, as opposed to trying to avoid (the exeception being shomen avoidance). also shomen striking is derived from the sword and put in place by Ueshiba for a reason.

This is hard to explain without actually seeing it for yourself, but hope this makes some sense .
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:26 AM   #1930
Dave de Vos
 
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Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 339
Netherlands
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.
True, but I think that a person with aiki does not apply the same magnitude of force at the same angle. So it feels different from normal body mechanics. Whether one calls it body mechanics, ki or aiki is just a matter of words.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:51 AM   #1931
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

for reality...Aiki matters.

It matters when it matters.

When you start talking reality, OODA, IMO, matters first and for most. If you are ahead and beating your opponent and can continue to stay ahead, it really doesn't matter how you do it, be it fist, baseball bat, or what not.

However, if you are behind, or trying to stay ahead, Aiki can matter greatly and change the situation greatly.

Aiki, simply put can keep your opponent disorient, prevent them from indexing or orienting. It can also provide you strength in an area or position in which can normally be considered a disadvantage.

For me, it is all realitive in the overall picture...how much it matters.

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