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Old 07-06-2012, 05:59 AM   #1926
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;
Quote:
Matthew Lim wrote: View Post
...If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are.
Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:35 PM   #1927
Kifusion
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
There is something to be said for not just grabbing someone and trying to man-handle them around. And in not tensing up everything at once and making yourself unable to move. However, people don't feel strength, they feel force. It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.

It's like if someone grabs your wrist to stop you moving it forwards - if you hold your wrist straight and just try and push into them it's very hard - if you rotate your wrist it's fairly easy. If they rotate their wrist the other way it's hard again. Nothing to do with ki, just different muscle groups with different degrees of tension being put through them.

I suspect a lot of the problem people have with the idea of strength is that they think it should feel like they're putting a lot of effort in. And of course to feel like you're putting a lot of effort in, frequently, you have to tension opposing muscle groups to get enough resistance to push against - which results in less overall force being generated in the desired direction.
Good point of view. at the same time it does teach us how to blend with the other persons energy as opposed to clashing with it.

The static gripping that is usually thought at the dojo looks like it is has no martial application from another persons persepctive. That is true when looking at what is likely to happen in the real world, however over time these static gripping (or ki exercises as described by my sensei) will help you in all other techniques. With enough Ki cultivated over time, you will be amazed at what you can do later on.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #1928
Kifusion
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;

Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.
Yes I meant sawari waza as well as katate-tori without atemi (or striking).
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:50 PM   #1929
Kifusion
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
A lot of bad mouthing of shomen uchi. . .

I think that a lack of understanding of shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, both on the raise and cut, greatly contribute to the difficulty that so many aikidoists seem to encounter in fielding strikes of all kinds.

In fact, I think that one could safely call shomen uchi the most basic movement of the hands in aikido.
Yes i agree that many people do not understand the reasons for training against yokomen and shomen attacks. The reason for training againsts duch attacks are to train you not to "avoid" the attack as attackers will follow you the moment they see you move off the "centre line" prematurely.

I found that entering in (irimi) and moving your opponent off the centre line (after the attack) at the last moment is one of the best ways to deal with it, as opposed to trying to avoid (the exeception being shomen avoidance). also shomen striking is derived from the sword and put in place by Ueshiba for a reason.

This is hard to explain without actually seeing it for yourself, but hope this makes some sense .
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:26 AM   #1930
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.
True, but I think that a person with aiki does not apply the same magnitude of force at the same angle. So it feels different from normal body mechanics. Whether one calls it body mechanics, ki or aiki is just a matter of words.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:51 AM   #1931
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

for reality...Aiki matters.

It matters when it matters.

When you start talking reality, OODA, IMO, matters first and for most. If you are ahead and beating your opponent and can continue to stay ahead, it really doesn't matter how you do it, be it fist, baseball bat, or what not.

However, if you are behind, or trying to stay ahead, Aiki can matter greatly and change the situation greatly.

Aiki, simply put can keep your opponent disorient, prevent them from indexing or orienting. It can also provide you strength in an area or position in which can normally be considered a disadvantage.

For me, it is all realitive in the overall picture...how much it matters.

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Old 09-19-2015, 11:07 AM   #1932
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg
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Old 09-19-2015, 01:13 PM   #1933
rugwithlegs
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg
Why is Joe Rogan an authority on Aikido? Besides, the guy they found to defend us as an art - "I don't know the founder's name, he's called O'Sensei". Accent on the "O'" as in O'Connor, or O'Neil or other Celtic derived names. And, mention of magically throwing guys without touching them. Our "representative" hasn't trained much, and he is making mistakes I would correct in someone's first class.

Me saying I have used Aikido in combat (true) does not mean I categorically insist all Aikido people are combat ready - apart from the difference in people, we seem to have a very wide variety of teachers and schools with no central authority. We argue amongst ourselves about what Aikido is.

My belief that Aikido is a good martial art does not mean that I am refusing to learn techniques from other arts, or that I am insulting other martial artists. The loudest groups are not real combat either. I am increasingly more disgusted with manipulative fear-based marketing campaigns. Too many schools are trying to act like the candidates in the American presidential race, a winner take all at all costs discussion with no attempt to be truthful.

My own teacher was a Japanese student of O Sensei, and he was quite proficient in sacrifice throws, atemi, kansetsu, he knew how to hurt or kill people with his art, and many items now "controversial" in Aikido or declared not Aikido by some groups. I do open myself up to "questions" with my own students, so did my teacher.
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Old 09-20-2015, 05:10 AM   #1934
silversmoke
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This may have been said before but obviously the guy who made the original post has never come across Positive Aikido, I was taught by Sensei Henry Ellis strikes and kicks were included in the techniques, Mr Ellis was a student of Kenshiro Abbé sensei who introduced Aikido into the UK, I worked on the doors of a very busy nightclub in Bournemouth UK for 5years, Aikido works in a live situation fullstop.
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Old 09-20-2015, 06:14 AM   #1935
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again. I guess I've been fortunate. 8 years of judo, 17 years of aikido (none since 2011, unfortunately), never had occasion to "test" aikido outside of the dojo.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:03 AM   #1936
rugwithlegs
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again. I guess I've been fortunate. 8 years of judo, 17 years of aikido (none since 2011, unfortunately), never had occasion to "test" aikido outside of the dojo.
I guess what we write outlives us more than what we do. Some excellent discussions have only a couple of responses, and this has nearly 2000. The subject is pervasive and the questions are timeless and widespread. It would probably take an even longer thread to discuss why that is and who do we blame for this relatively (compared to other arts) widespread poor opinion.

A junior student pulled some boneheaded very public crap that nearly got our dojo sued, quit our dojo to join a Krav school, became an instructor in a matter of weeks, then engaged in a bunch of brainless social media bashing of his friends and Aikido, and now has recently asked to return to Aikido. For the third-fourth time. Maybe I am a little sensitive/bored/frustrated/angry.

I remember you having no hesitation to "have a discussion about Judo" back in the day Walter. I owe a great deal to your patience and generosity.
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Old 09-20-2015, 09:09 AM   #1937
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Why is Joe Rogan an authority on Aikido? Besides, the guy they found to defend us as an art - "I don't know the founder's name, he's called O'Sensei". Accent on the "O'" as in O'Connor, or O'Neil or other Celtic derived names. And, mention of magically throwing guys without touching them. Our "representative" hasn't trained much, and he is making mistakes I would correct in someone's first class.

Me saying I have used Aikido in combat (true) does not mean I categorically insist all Aikido people are combat ready - apart from the difference in people, we seem to have a very wide variety of teachers and schools with no central authority. We argue amongst ourselves about what Aikido is.

My belief that Aikido is a good martial art does not mean that I am refusing to learn techniques from other arts, or that I am insulting other martial artists. The loudest groups are not real combat either. I am increasingly more disgusted with manipulative fear-based marketing campaigns. Too many schools are trying to act like the candidates in the American presidential race, a winner take all at all costs discussion with no attempt to be truthful.

My own teacher was a Japanese student of O Sensei, and he was quite proficient in sacrifice throws, atemi, kansetsu, he knew how to hurt or kill people with his art, and many items now "controversial" in Aikido or declared not Aikido by some groups. I do open myself up to "questions" with my own students, so did my teacher.
Maybe the fact he isn't an authority on aikido says more than you realise, ie you don't have to be an expert on it to see it's major flaws...who knows.
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Old 09-20-2015, 10:27 AM   #1938
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Or just maybe Aikido is not about sport....but really about self defense and that is really hard to measure.

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Old 09-20-2015, 10:38 AM   #1939
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Or just maybe Aikido is not about sport....but really about self defense and that is really hard to measure.
Its about neither surely?

I think that was joe rogans point........in simplest of terms, it doesnt work........its far too technical to be of much use if your attacked and the rose tinted specs worn in dojos give a false sense that its of any use in reality.

Seeing someone flying to the ground when one arm is raised, it doesnt take a genius to see why it gets subjected to such criticism. The attacks are completely unrealistic to be if any use unless your luxky enough to have somebody attack you pretending their arm is a sword.

It may have been derived from ju jutsu but that isnt good enough....ju jutsu isnt what is practiced in a club. Also saying they are sword movements also means little in reality, outside of practice.

My view is there may be too much complacency in training, uke doing the uke role...and being too soft..... if its regarded as bad etiquette to give too much resistance then whats the point? If people get annoyed if their technique is blocked then that says it all.......you can say to a real attacker, sorry can you come at me again but next time you punch be sure to leave your arm out so I can do some aikido and everybody goes home enlightened.



Im sure philosophy wont often save you a beating.

Last edited by jdm4life : 09-20-2015 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:01 AM   #1940
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Either its self defense or it isnt, you cant have it both ways.....ie totally unrealistic attacks drilled over and over then say oh well you obviously dont understand or you are not qualified to comment on aikido on its effectiveness.

Id like to see people who would be regarded as an authority debate all this and finally get some logical discussion and explanations because it just goes on and on and doesnt get any nearer. If people want to understand, then their questions should be given attention.

YouTube type debates just end up in the same place.....a shouting match with comments like.....aikido is bullshit...that kind of thing........it doesnt work.......etc etc. Not very useful, why doesnt it work? Why does It work? How woukd it work in this situation or that situation, would it be effective if this happened or that happens, all speculation but it would lead to more understanding.

Weve all seen these fake Chinese chi master videos and its unfair that aikido to be put in the same box as them.

Ive seen beginners say, well why would somebody grab your wrist and keep hold?

Indeed.

They are stopping your trying to draw a sword.

Sorry, a sword? What sword?

Indeed.

Things may have been derived from that concept but what use is that now? None?

You could explain to the beginner, these are used in order to learn the basics so that they can be applied to other situations, although that may be true...its also a bit of a cop out.

Excuse the rant....im just in a mood but still.....there are a lot of things Id like to be explained properly in aikido that are left or given the same responses.

Say on a car forum....one person has a certain type of car eg...a vw golf and joins a forum for enthusiasts of another car, eg a ford fiesta...he thinks his car is better and says, your car is rubbish, mine drives better and is faster and would beat yours around a track.............
Have you ever driven one if these cars?
Well, No but I know mind is better.

Them types of interactions arent worth the energy.

Last edited by jdm4life : 09-20-2015 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:30 PM   #1941
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

If someone grabs your wrist, there's a good chance a punch with the other hand is coming next. And so the initial move is intended to disrupt that punch. If they can still hit you with the other hand after your entry, then you did the initial move wrong and trying to apply a technique from there is pointless.

If your technique only works on someone who leaves their arm hanging out there to manipulate, then you probably need to spend more time worrying about controlling their body movement.

If you're looking for logical discussion (of anything) on YouTube, you're wasting time that would be better spent seeking out better in-person teachers.

Katherine
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Old 09-20-2015, 02:47 PM   #1942
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Izumi sensei used to say that it's really dangerous to have your wrist grabbed as Katherine points out. Or your lapel. A punch or stab may be following and the grab is to distract you and give the other hand more freedom of movement. That some dojo don't practice as if attackers are armed and/or attacking with malice is not the fault of aikido, it is the fault of those dojo and their sensei and sempai.

John... I REALLY TRIED to limit my reference to past judo experiences to the point where Kawahara used to complain at me that he'd wanted to see me use judo during my grading tests and was disappointed that I didn't... You saw me mostly when I was a beginner in Saskatoon. Now I'm a beginner with 17 years of practice and 5 not practicing. The dojo around here train when I'm at work
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Old 09-20-2015, 03:39 PM   #1943
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...

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Old 09-20-2015, 03:43 PM   #1944
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
brains.. brains.. eat... brains... (not sure why but in north america there's a great long and boring fantasy about 'undead' zombies as depicted in some really old b-movie)
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Old 09-20-2015, 04:06 PM   #1945
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think the b-movie zombies are a representation of commies.

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Old 09-20-2015, 04:25 PM   #1946
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg
OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?

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Old 09-20-2015, 04:45 PM   #1947
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?
Joe who? The Podcast guy?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-20-2015, 05:15 PM   #1948
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?
He has a black belt in BJJ.....not me.
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Old 09-20-2015, 05:23 PM   #1949
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
He has a black belt in BJJ....
And?

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Old 09-20-2015, 05:36 PM   #1950
jdm4life
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And?
And taekwando
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