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Old 07-06-2012, 04:14 PM   #26
D-Ring
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Both martial arts are about committed attacks. If you are not engaging, there is no energy for the throws. Being hard to throw is easy, being hard to throw while throwing someone else is very hard.
Don, I don't agree that nage's effectiveness should depend on uke's performance. I realize that the committed attack paradigm is the party line in aikido right now but it never seemed like a good idea to me. Why wait for a specific quality of movement when you need to take initiative and end the conflict? Wouldn't it be better if we trained to be effective whether the opponent committed, resisted, feinted or tried to run away? In practical application not everyone gives you a nice attack you can work with.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:28 PM   #27
PeterR
 
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
That's an interesting idea, Peter. I assume you are refereeing to competitive vs. cooperative training. By saying the arts are two sides of the same thing are each incomplete on their own? I think a case could be made that no system really covers everything. How does that fit into practical skills testing?
Actually Judo and Aikido are really jujutsu separated by distance. Where I trained in Japan crossing over for a bit was actually encouraged.

Your question was about vetting your skills and my answer really was given just in that light. There is actually full on resistance randori in my style of Aikido so for me the competitive vs cooperative issue was really not the reason although for most aikido styles I think it could/should be.

One of the main reasons is that no matter where and how you train you will fit into a particular box and it takes real effort to break out of that. Often when we adjust our training we really are just moving to a different corner of that same box. Judo, both in distance and training style is not so different but different enough that you can test your Aikido skills without that generated delusion that affects us all. Consider it the outside examiner that we see for Post-graduate courses.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:43 PM   #28
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Some personal observations when I made that journey.

I am a lover of technique - in an Aikido dojo I can tell you every nuance of every technique (well I like to think so). When I started training in Judo it was just the opposite. Oh I tried to do the same but in the end I just did not care. What I did find myself constantly doing was thinking how to adapt the Aikido waza to this new situation.

I personally think I was much better at Judo randori than the Shodokan version of Aikido randori. Not sure why exactly but perhaps I do better once I actually have hold of somebody. Maybe I tend to think to much. All I can say that after I entered a Judo grading competition ( 5 months later) and took my Shodan my Aikido randori improved dramatically. It was not just vetting my skills it was validating.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #29
dps
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
Don, I don't agree that nage's effectiveness should depend on uke's performance.
Then what does nage's effectiveness depend on?
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:38 PM   #30
philipsmith
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

[I have to disagree with this. If we never move with someone who is opposing us how do we prepare for any situation where someone else doesn't just let us have the throw?[/quote]

Hi david,

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if body movement is sufficient it should put you in a position to either unbalance the oppoent or make them vulnerable to a strike. Unbalancing should lead to a "throw" even if there is minimal physical contact.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:46 PM   #31
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
Don, I don't agree that nage's effectiveness should depend on uke's performance. I realize that the committed attack paradigm is the party line in aikido right now but it never seemed like a good idea to me. Why wait for a specific quality of movement when you need to take initiative and end the conflict? Wouldn't it be better if we trained to be effective whether the opponent committed, resisted, feinted or tried to run away? In practical application not everyone gives you a nice attack you can work with.
It seems to me, as a complete newb, that you don't really want to study Aikido? The entire (well, practically) system is based upon pure defence, made possible with the force delivered by the attacker (uke).
Now, personally I agree that sometimes the best defence is a solid offence, but that's not Aikido. That's not to say that you can't train for that - by cross-training, that's perfectly possible - but it isn't the Aikido system, right? The very notion that you say you should be effective, when your assailant tries to run away, shows that you don't particularly like the system that Aikido is based on (which would be to never attack, but to efficiently defend).

I would say, instead of trying to change Aikido, take what you can from it, and do cross-training to fill in the blanks of what you feel is lacking.

With everything else - I agree that cross-training is good (in all martial arts), and that some amount of resistance should be put on all parties during training.

I might add that this is why I don't understand how Shodokan / Tomiki competitions work... surely, if all parties practised Aikido as it was designed to be used, each round would be 5 minutes of students standing around starring at each other, waiting for someone silly enough to attack.

Last edited by TokyoZeplin : 07-07-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:55 PM   #32
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Aikido has techniques which sieze the initiative - omote irimi is probably the best example but yes even that technique requires an innate understanding of your opponents energy.

With respect to your question about Shodokan. Tanto randori does have a designated attacker - hence the tanto. From a philosophical point of view is that any different from uke who must attack. I will say that toshu randori (where both are unarmed and trying to execute technique) is quite a bit harder to do and very easy to fall into the trap of doing nothing. Judo - which is also a defensive art - has the same problem.

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
It seems to me, as a complete newb, that you don't really want to study Aikido? The entire (well, practically) system is based upon pure defence, made possible with the force delivered by the attacker (uke).
Now, personally I agree that sometimes the best defence is a solid offence, but that's not Aikido. That's not to say that you can't train for that - by cross-training, that's perfectly possible - but it isn't the Aikido system, right? The very notion that you say you should be effective, when your assailant tries to run away, shows that you don't particularly like the system that Aikido is based on (which would be to never attack, but to efficiently defend).

I would say, instead of trying to change Aikido, take what you can from it, and do cross-training to fill in the blanks of what you feel is lacking.

With everything else - I agree that cross-training is good (in all martial arts), and that some amount of resistance should be put on all parties during training.

I might add that this is why I don't understand how Shodokan / Tomiki competitions work... surely, if all parties practised Aikido as it was designed to be used, each round would be 5 minutes of students standing around starring at each other, waiting for someone silly enough to attack.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:24 AM   #33
davoravo
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

I have been wanting to make this suggestion on a couple of threads, and this seems the most appropriate (and least heated):

How about bringing some sumo in as a competitive "game" and as a regular part of training?

Just as kuzushi in judo is really taught through randori this would be a good way to teach skills such as kuzushi and how to resist an attack. Using sumo would avoid risk of harm from some aikido techniques (standing elbow bars and wrist turns). I think it is important to emphasise that this is play and a game so the student is free to explore what doesn't work as well as trying to win.

i recently learned a great game in a kung fu class. For the first game we started trying to very lightly punch each other on the chest (shoulders for females). For the second game we started with hands on each others shoulders and tried to throw each other to the ground, no grabbing the gi. for the third game we combined the two, and that is when aikido strategy suddenly became useful against strikers.

To be provocative, after all jujutsu (and hence aikido) started out as sumo for skinny guys ... (being the sport that samurai played when they weren't training with weapons and then being formalised into a different system)

David McNamara
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:42 AM   #34
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
With respect to your question about Shodokan. Tanto randori does have a designated attacker - hence the tanto.
Didn't know that! Thanks for letting me know - makes a lot more sense now So... it's basically "normal" randori, but with an uke that doesn't want to fall, and graded?
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:54 AM   #35
PeterR
 
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
So... it's basically "normal" randori, but with an uke that doesn't want to fall, and graded?
You know - that is pretty much it. Sometimes it is done as part of a competition - mostly as an exercise without the point system. Either way its a great way of shattering delusions.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:45 AM   #36
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Vetting Our Skills

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
You know - that is pretty much it. Sometimes it is done as part of a competition - mostly as an exercise without the point system. Either way its a great way of shattering delusions.
Interesting! Didn't realize it was like that, since all videos I've seen of Shodokan / Tomiki demonstrations have looked like some weird Judo abomination, with two people trying to throw each other o0

And I completely believe you when you say it's great for training - solid chance I'd be wanting to do Shodokan, but sadly, there's no Shodokan dojo's in Denmark, so to make up for it I'm planning (once I have some basic level of insufficiency) to jump by some Judo clubs, or my old Shotokan Karate dojo (though that would be nasty... only wooden floors o0) to spar with some people there later on.
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