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Old 07-06-2012, 03:19 PM   #126
Hellis
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Then there is thus

Ki Response a Punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFjAq6V64g

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 07-06-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #127
chillzATL
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Then there is thus

Ki Response a Punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFjAq6V64g

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
you're just not accepting enough! You have to first accept the absurdity of this video into your heart and then you will understand =P
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:51 PM   #128
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Then there is thus

Ki Response a Punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFjAq6V64g

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
Is ki at play in the proper exchange of what the instructor is trying to teach ? yes, IMO, but not in the way nor at the level of importance the instructor is giving it. There is much more at play in that exchange that he does not mention or is just dancing around in with his verbiage. For example, he mentions proper connection, but he does not elaborate and he does not talk at all about proper body structure and extension of energy; his primary focus is on acceptance - granted, that is part of the process, but there is much more - this, IMO, is the type of ki instruction that is not practical and just leads to why so many serious budoka view the ki folks as woo woo.

Greg
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:08 PM   #129
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Is ki at play in the proper exchange of what the instructor is trying to teach ? yes, IMO, but not in the way nor at the level of importance the instructor is giving it. There is much more at play in that exchange that he does not mention or is just dancing around in with his verbiage. For example, he mentions proper connection, but he does not elaborate and he does not talk at all about proper body structure and extension of energy; his primary focus is on acceptance - granted, that is part of the process, but there is much more - this, IMO, is the type of ki instruction that is not practical and just leads to why so many serious budoka view the ki folks as woo woo.

Greg
That don't make sense. You say Ki is at play then go on to say about level of import. It's just a drill.

There is no dancing of verbiage. Why doesn't he elaborate? Because it's a drill on one aspect obviously.

Why do you want or expect everything in one video?

Peace.G.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:15 PM   #130
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
That don't make sense. You say Ki is at play then go on to say about level of import. It's just a drill.

There is no dancing of verbiage. Why doesn't he elaborate? Because it's a drill on one aspect obviously.

Why do you want or expect everything in one video?


Peace.G.
No, but his sole emphasis on ki is way overstated - there are things at play in that exercise that he totally ignores; to me, some of those things are more important then the ki energy involvement.

Greg
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:35 PM   #131
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
No, but his sole emphasis on ki is way overstated - there are things at play in that exercise that he totally ignores; to me, some of those things are more important then the ki energy involvement.

Greg
It's not a drill on importance it's on one aspect. How can you say about ignoring when it's a drill on one thing?

Peace.G.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:25 PM   #132
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It's not a drill on importance it's on one aspect. How can you say about ignoring when it's a drill on one thing?

Peace.G.
Sorry, the drill is focused on a start to a finish - attack to a throw - there are more than one thing going on in that process, and if you are going to show the whole process in the drill, you need to explain all steps in that process - he does not.

Greg
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:29 AM   #133
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Sorry, the drill is focused on a start to a finish - attack to a throw - there are more than one thing going on in that process, and if you are going to show the whole process in the drill, you need to explain all steps in that process - he does not.

Greg
Interesting. If that's your view then maybe you haven't ever experienced focused training on one thing.

In fact given one thing to do with Ki and a person made to focus on it and carry on until they could apply it would end the debate on this thread.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:28 AM   #134
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Interesting. If that's your view then maybe you haven't ever experienced focused training on one thing.

In fact given one thing to do with Ki and a person made to focus on it and carry on until they could apply it would end the debate on this thread.

Peace.G.
Thanks for the reply - I generally know I am on the right track with something when you disagree with it

Greg
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:19 AM   #135
Hellis
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Ki Response with Punch ?

I really didn't know what to make of the video - My son Rik did - he thought it was another Jim Carey sppof.

So we are now well informed it is `focused training` - I never experienced anything like that in the past 55 years of training.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:32 AM   #136
dps
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Re: Ki to the Highway

This video clip made me smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CzgDX9lGc0

Maybe the ki would not flow so nicely if he was punching fast and hard at his face instead of slowly at his hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFjAq6V64g

dps
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:42 AM   #137
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Ki Response with Punch ?

I really didn't know what to make of the video - My son Rik did - he thought it was another Jim Carey sppof.

So we are now well informed it is `focused training` - I never experienced anything like that in the past 55 years of training.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
Henry:

People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:27 PM   #138
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
This video clip made me smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CzgDX9lGc0
If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?

Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.

Ron

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Old 07-08-2012, 03:04 AM   #139
Hellis
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Henry:

People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc

William Tell Sensei

Talking of stupid training, I received an email from a student who told me that his teacher had instructed every student to bring an apple to the next class where the students were instructed to place an apple on their heads - after some concentration they were told to knock the apples off each others heads with the power of their Ki The student said he never went back.
Its anyones guess who will be heading down to the dojo with a bag of Granny Smiths after reading this.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:01 AM   #140
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Henry:

People can focus as intensely on stupid training as they can on useful training. I think that it is so sad that people can take some meaningful construct (such as "ki") and find a way to muck it up so bad, that reasonable people will look at a video clip like that and dismiss the construct outright. It is kind of like washing a hand-blown, crystal wine glass with a hammer and as a result of that experience, believe that hammers are useless....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc, my disbelief in ki isn't because of the wackjob outliers. I bring them up in the post as one of four reasons why I don't mess with ki, but only one of four. The fact that something is often misused is not reason enough, in and of itself, to dismiss it outright. I question the usefulness of ki because I've never seen a need for it. My instructors who use ki as an explanation are no better than those who don't, and I've never seen anything in the dojo that can't be explained without ki. So what do I need ki for?

Let me revise your analogy. Say you've seen the hammer misused with the wine glass, and you've seen the claw end of the hammer used for jobs a crowbar could do just as well or better, but you've never seen any evidence that nails really exist. What usefulness would you find in that hammer then?

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Old 07-08-2012, 07:08 AM   #141
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?
Because, as with many things, visualization helps. It helps because we can't mentally single out every muscle in our body (for instance, imagine how unhelpful it would be for an instructor to say, "Use your latissimus dorsae."). Visualization is a useful tool for complex muscular actions. Only in aikido, though, do we consider these visualizations evidence of ki. In everything else (singing, shot put, flyfishing, whatever), they just are what they are. What makes aikido different?

Quote:
Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.

Ron
I think you've got a false dichotomy here. You seem to be assuming that one can either (a) use his muscles or (b) relax his arms. I'm not sure that is biologically sound. Even with a relaxed arm, there can still be lot of muscle and bone structure at work.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-08-2012 at 07:22 AM.

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Old 07-08-2012, 07:39 AM   #142
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Because, as with many things, visualization helps.
So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.

If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".

Ron

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Old 07-08-2012, 07:59 AM   #143
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.

If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".

Ron
Who is visualizing?

Peace.G.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:12 AM   #144
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
So it seems that it's the term ki that you object to. Replacing the word ki with visualization doesn't alter the procedure, which in this case, is coordinating mind and body in order to improve performance of a certain task. And that's what ki is, a unified mind and body, no woo woo mysterious energy source, but a synergy that amplifies one's power in a way that can't be achieved by mechanics alone.

If coordination of mind and body strikes you as a little to Ki Aikido-y try Dan's definition again which is pretty non-denominational: "controlled use of the body systems through intent".

Ron
Okay, then why do we need the word ki at all?

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Old 07-08-2012, 08:30 AM   #145
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Marc, my disbelief in ki isn't because of the wackjob outliers. I bring them up in the post as one of four reasons why I don't mess with ki, but only one of four. The fact that something is often misused is not reason enough, in and of itself, to dismiss it outright. I question the usefulness of ki because I've never seen a need for it. My instructors who use ki as an explanation are no better than those who don't, and I've never seen anything in the dojo that can't be explained without ki. So what do I need ki for?

Let me revise your analogy. Say you've seen the hammer misused with the wine glass, and you've seen the claw end of the hammer used for jobs a crowbar could do just as well or better, but you've never seen any evidence that nails really exist. What usefulness would you find in that hammer then?
Matthew:

I am happy that after only three years into Aikido, you have figured everything out! I have not been responding back because of where you are in your Aikido development.

I frankly would like to hear to response to your own posts five years, ten years, fifteen years into the future. Maybe you should step back and look at the experience base of some of the posters. Many have decades of experience with direct students of the founder. Many are very intelligent, successful people in other endeavors in their lives. We are not talking about the kind of people who fall for common or uncommon ruse. It is so "comforting" to know that you are so much wiser and more advanced than all of us . You can remain where you are in your thinking and your Aikido will reflect that in the years to come. Hopefully, your thinking and your Aikido will evolve nicely. A hint along the way AI KI Do.

Good Luck!

marc abrams

Ps- If you are ever in the area, stop by and try a class.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:37 AM   #146
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Ki to the Highway

There are quite a number of words that denote an important domain of our experience in spite of our inability to say what it is exactly they refer to. Some would argue "Death" is one. Or the everyday uses of "Energy".

Many find them very useful in spite of not being able to (and maybe not seeing a need to) define their meaning precisely. They will be replaced if something more useful turns up. I would suspect that is a practical matter, really.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:51 AM   #147
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Re: Ki to the Highway

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15970
This relates.

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Old 07-08-2012, 09:39 AM   #148
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
So that would be God and true self.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:57 AM   #149
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Matthew:

I am happy that after only three years into Aikido, you have figured everything out! I have not been responding back because of where you are in your Aikido development.

I frankly would like to hear to response to your own posts five years, ten years, fifteen years into the future. Maybe you should step back and look at the experience base of some of the posters. Many have decades of experience with direct students of the founder. Many are very intelligent, successful people in other endeavors in their lives. We are not talking about the kind of people who fall for common or uncommon ruse. It is so "comforting" to know that you are so much wiser and more advanced than all of us . You can remain where you are in your thinking and your Aikido will reflect that in the years to come. Hopefully, your thinking and your Aikido will evolve nicely. A hint along the way AI KI Do.

Good Luck!

marc abrams

Ps- If you are ever in the area, stop by and try a class.
Mark:

You've basically just finished telling me that none of what I've written and none of the questions I've asked matter enough even to warrant a response, simply because I haven't been training as long as you have. However good your intentions are, it's hard to see that as anything but insulting and evasive.

If you'd like to continue our conversation courteously, you can begin by trying to show me where you find the nails that need your hammer. I'll listen.

But if, as you seem to be suggesting, my words are not worthy of your attention, please go back to ignoring them.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-08-2012 at 12:04 PM.

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Old 07-08-2012, 11:58 AM   #150
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Thanks, Mary. I'll have to start digging through this.

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