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Old 07-05-2012, 07:46 AM   #76
HL1978
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I would argue that the typical person meets a horizontal force with another horizontal force in the same direction, typically by using their arms and shoulder, or maybe if they're "good", using their hips and relaxed arms to push along the same horizontal direction.

Someone with skill isn't going to push along the same direction (a vector is really the proper term). Pushing "upwards" or vertically works well to to deal with an incoming force, but you don't really push upwards with your arms, or legs (or anything) as in that case you are actively pushing against the incoming force.

You would have to figure out how to take the horizontal force within you and convert it into a vertical force that goes down into the ground and then goes upwards

Mike Sigman's ground path exercises are a foot in the door for this stuff, since they initially teach you to relax and not try and add anything to push back. You do have to transition though, as the initial bringing it to the back foot seems to allow you to "push back" with the pushers force, but along the same direction. You have to figure out how to convert that push to a vertical component, as the more "vertical" the component, the harder it is for the pusher to exert force on you as they have nothing to push back with.

Strangely, the more vertical your reflection of the push from your partner is, the less you feel your partner and the less they feel you too..........
Actually, following up myself...

You would need not only to convert someone else's push into a vertical component, but actively having an upwards component without yourself at all times (really a downwards component within yourself than creates a resultant upwards component). Trying to establish a vertical component upon contact is really really hard to do unless you don't already have one set up.
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:54 AM   #77
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If the mind can control the body, why does it need a bridge?
All interconnection of dissimilar objects, energies, or systems need some form of interface that can convert, translate, or bridge the basic protocols of each side to the other - to me, ki serves that purpose between mind and body.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
They have found other solutions because that one was wrong. I'm not having a conversation here about whether or not human sacrifice is wrong.
You brought up the sacrifice thing not me - I just did not see it as a good analogy because ki/qi is still believed in by most Chinese.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
The point of the blog post is that I think we do have better solutions. We have physics.
Physics is a science and they had their sciences as well - there is nothing as constant as change, and physics today is different than the physics of yesterday as well as be different tomorrow.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
How come physicists have never found ki on the electromagnetic spectrum, then?
Not all things in that spectrum were identified from day one - as new things are discovered, they are added - to me, ki could very easily be added in the future.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Are you saying that I should be able to stand still, make no physical movement at all, and make you feel "energy movement", just with the use of my mind and will? That sounds like a magic trick, not martial art.
Absolutely, with the proper physical connection - but not just with your mind and will, ki plays a crucial role in that process - been there done that.

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:06 AM   #78
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
I don't discount what you write above. And most things are energy-based. Physics tells us so.

However ...

I don't view that energy as the "ki" from martial arts. If that "ki" was "life energy" which is all around us all the time, why did Ueshiba state at specific moments in training to "fill yourself with ki"? Wouldn't you already be filled with life energy? We want more life energy? It's like saying stand in six directions meaning stand in hanmi at a 60 degree angle.

As we've come to see with Chris Li's translations, Ueshiba meant some fairly specific martial training methods/concepts. I don't think this example of fill yourself with ki would be any different, but it isn't the overall "ki" definition everyone gives.

Actually, I wonder if some of what you stated above can't be tied into a collective consciousness theory.

Mark
Good point, and what is the glue that binds that collective together? maybe an application of non-martial ki?

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:36 AM   #79
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Re: Ki to the Highway

An important point I like to make here is that regardless of what anyone's position on ki is, we are ALL just guessing because none of us know for sure what it is - the best we can do is come up with opinions that mean something to us personally that enables us to function in obtaining the true objectives of developing whatever skill it is that ki is supposed to be part of. As long as you keep focused on that, and are sure of what the results should be, you will be fine and it does not matter if you look at it as a western physics process, an eastern ki process, or some other wacky off-world Astral plane magic process - just as long as your personal model can produce the proper results.

The key of course is knowing what the proper results should be

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:02 AM   #80
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The key of course is knowing what the proper results should be
The proper results should be in line with whatever your training goals are. And as training goals vary from student to student, proper results will necessarily not conform to a single categorical framework.

Ron

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Old 07-05-2012, 09:32 AM   #81
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The proper results should be in line with whatever your training goals are. And as training goals vary from student to student, proper results will necessarily not conform to a single categorical framework.

Ron
Very good point - problem is that some folks think their objectives are the same, however their results are different - so, who is correct?

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:37 AM   #82
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Let's take, for example, when Ueshiba wrote to stand in six directions. Now, people came along and decided that it meant to stand in hanmi of 60 degrees angle. They came up with opinions that meant something to them personally and enable them to function in obtaining true objectives of developing aikido skills and abilities.

Now, did that help them, in any way whatsoever, in replicating Ueshiba's skills and abilities? The answer is not just no, but emphatically no.

Let's overlay "ki" with "stand in six directions". Ueshiba meant something specific when talking about these concepts. Turns out, many of these specific concepts can be found in martial classics and there, they have specific meanings. How can you tell? Fairly easy. You take all those people who came up with opinions that meant something to them and see if they have the same skills and abilities of those martial masters who all talked about the same thing in the same way. 99% will fail that test. Those martial masters weren't guessing. They knew the concepts and when tested, showed those concepts in a martial environment.

That is what people in budo should be looking for. Not their own opinion of what something should be, but what the classics actually meant in regards to martial arts. What those men in budo meant when they talked about concepts.

When climbing a mountain, all those people at the very bottom look up and say, hey, there's all kinds of paths to the top. But those few who are 3/4 of the way up know that there are very few paths to the top. And those paths are well known by the few who have made it. They can be described by those few. And those few all look at the people and their opinions at the bottom, smile, and say, show me the truth of your opinion.

Just because all those people at the bottom get together and form a general concensus on an opinion doesn't mean that their opinion is right, true, or worthy. They can all stand at the bottom in hanmi at 60 degree angles and repeat that mantra for 20 to 40 years ... oh wait, they have ... and yet they are no closer to Ueshiba's skills and abilities. Meanwhile, men like Chen Fake, Hong Jungshen, Sagawa, Ueshiba, all talk about the same concepts and martial classics ... from the top of the mountain.

All IMO but what do I know? I'm
Mark
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:40 AM   #83
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Why fill yourself with what you already have? You can learn how to use what you have. You can decide to be centered and Ki full. I have seen people have all the methods available and still try to muscle, muscle, muscle....

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Old 07-05-2012, 09:58 AM   #84
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
I don't discount what you write above. And most things are energy-based. Physics tells us so.

However ...

I don't view that energy as the "ki" from martial arts. If that "ki" was "life energy" which is all around us all the time, why did Ueshiba state at specific moments in training to "fill yourself with ki"? Wouldn't you already be filled with life energy? We want more life energy? It's like saying stand in six directions meaning stand in hanmi at a 60 degree angle.

As we've come to see with Chris Li's translations, Ueshiba meant some fairly specific martial training methods/concepts. I don't think this example of fill yourself with ki would be any different, but it isn't the overall "ki" definition everyone gives.

Actually, I wonder if some of what you stated above can't be tied into a collective consciousness theory.

Mark
Mark:

I agree with what you, Dan and some other people are saying to a point. It seems to be, that what we are addressing is how this "energy" can be utilized and to what purpose. You have some people who can use their "ki" in a therapeutic manner which can be measured by infra-red sensors. These people can be completely incompetent in any kind of martial setting. Does that negate the use of their energy? Should we call that energy something other than "ki"? We have people who claim to be able to utilize ki in a martial setting and are completely incompetent. Does that mean that they do have any ki in them? There are prescribed ways of training and using your body to manifest Ki in a remarkably effective martial manner. I think that people would like to "localize" Ki in this thread to one single manifestation of it's expression. Maybe I am simply full of fecal material, but I believe that there are other, equally valid expressions of ki.

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:10 AM   #85
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let's take, for example, when Ueshiba wrote to stand in six directions. Now, people came along and decided that it meant to stand in hanmi of 60 degrees angle. They came up with opinions that meant something to them personally and enable them to function in obtaining true objectives of developing aikido skills and abilities.

Now, did that help them, in any way whatsoever, in replicating Ueshiba's skills and abilities? The answer is not just no, but emphatically no.

Let's overlay "ki" with "stand in six directions". Ueshiba meant something specific when talking about these concepts. Turns out, many of these specific concepts can be found in martial classics and there, they have specific meanings. How can you tell? Fairly easy. You take all those people who came up with opinions that meant something to them and see if they have the same skills and abilities of those martial masters who all talked about the same thing in the same way. 99% will fail that test. Those martial masters weren't guessing. They knew the concepts and when tested, showed those concepts in a martial environment.

That is what people in budo should be looking for. Not their own opinion of what something should be, but what the classics actually meant in regards to martial arts. What those men in budo meant when they talked about concepts.

When climbing a mountain, all those people at the very bottom look up and say, hey, there's all kinds of paths to the top. But those few who are 3/4 of the way up know that there are very few paths to the top. And those paths are well known by the few who have made it. They can be described by those few. And those few all look at the people and their opinions at the bottom, smile, and say, show me the truth of your opinion.

Just because all those people at the bottom get together and form a general concensus on an opinion doesn't mean that their opinion is right, true, or worthy. They can all stand at the bottom in hanmi at 60 degree angles and repeat that mantra for 20 to 40 years ... oh wait, they have ... and yet they are no closer to Ueshiba's skills and abilities. Meanwhile, men like Chen Fake, Hong Jungshen, Sagawa, Ueshiba, all talk about the same concepts and martial classics ... from the top of the mountain.

All IMO but what do I know? I'm
Mark
You make my point very well - I said as long as you know what your true results should be it does not matter what you call your process, or the science behind how your process actually works, and as long as the true results are obtained, your process works for you. The point you bring out is that they thought they knew what they were looking for but they were wrong and actually followed a wrong process regardless of what that process was called. In this case, the ends justify the means. If you can duplicate Ueshiba's skill, chances are you followed his process of development very closely - you just may have called it something different. In other words, you made that process personal by forming opinions and conclusions that you could relate to and still produce the proper results.

I think absolutely too much effort is made in trying to understand what someone meant and then trying to duplicate things based on that person's viewpoint. I think you need to look at what that person could produce and then find what works in you that will produce they same thing - chances are it will be very similar to what the other person was doing, but it also is a good chance that you and that other person would look at the process differently to some extent because no two people are the same.

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:53 AM   #86
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I don't think we can say conclusively that there is a common experience. How is there any way to know that five different people who say they are feeling ki aren't feeling five different things?
I agree. There might be a lot of overlap which makes it seem like we're having the same experience, but I think each of us exeriences things in slightly different ways. When it comes to describing similar experiences all we can do is hope they're close enough to get something useful from it.

Quote:
First of all, I question how complete an understanding can be that does not produce a definition. Second of all, what good is that understanding to a conversation like this if it cannot be conveyed to someone else?
My guess is that (1) some concepts are more problematic than others, like "spirit," for example. I'm not sure we can have a complete definition and that's what makes certain conversations more problmatic than others. We can talk about the blue chair much more easily than spirit...unless one of us is colorblind and isn't aware of it. Perception rules the day. (2) Not much, if at all, but I think it's a good exercise to try.

Quote:
I guess you're right, but it's still a far cry better defined at the outset than ki.
It's certainly a bit more familiar to more native English-speakers.

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You are more optimistic than I.
Depends on which day you catch me.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 07-05-2012, 10:58 AM   #87
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
All interconnection of dissimilar objects, energies, or systems need some form of interface that can convert, translate, or bridge the basic protocols of each side to the other - to me, ki serves that purpose between mind and body.
How come biologists don't talk about ki then? Are their explanations of how the mind moves the body incomplete?
Quote:
You brought up the sacrifice thing not me - I just did not see it as a good analogy because ki/qi is still believed in by most Chinese.
First of all, you made it human sacrifices, not me. Second of all, a lot of people believing in something does not make it true. It is widely believed in Korea that leaving a box fan on all night will chill a room to sub-zero temperatures and cause hypothermia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...misconceptions).

Quote:
Physics is a science and they had their sciences as well - there is nothing as constant as change, and physics today is different than the physics of yesterday as well as be different tomorrow. Not all things in that spectrum were identified from day one - as new things are discovered, they are added - to me, ki could very easily be added in the future.
So what? You're saying that scientist may discover something in the future. Scientists may discover invisible elephants in the future. That doesn't mean it makes sense to believe in them now.

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Absolutely, with the proper physical connection
Let me put it to you this way: why shouldn't I believe that changing the thought changes the action, and that therefore what my partner is feeling is a change in action brought about by a change in thought? What evidence is there that my explanation (which is much simpler, much cleaner, and much more consistent with what we know of science) needs ki to be complete?

Quote:
but not just with your mind and will, ki plays a crucial role in that process - been there done that.

Greg
How do you use ki, if not with the mind and/or will?

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #88
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If that "ki" was "life energy" which is all around us all the time, why did Ueshiba state at specific moments in training to "fill yourself with ki"? Wouldn't you already be filled with life energy? We want more life energy?
You seem to be saying you have some fixed amount of life energy or you're dead, but why couldn't we have more or less "life energy," comparatively speaking? If we look at light as a possible analogy: sure it's either light or it's isn't, but you can certainly have more light in some places than in others. Some folks do seem to burn brighter than others...at least, I've heard this from enough different people to consider it a compelling idea.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #89
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Some things cannot be explained in detail by physics. That means that the phenomenon is just too complicated to explain in detail from first principles (in such detail that you would be able to write a computer program that calculates a simulation of the process). This does not mean that the phenomenon is supernatural.
Turbulence is an example from physics itself. Richard Feynman called it "the most important unsolved problem of classical physics". It's still unsolved.
Even though we can't explain it fully, the concept is not useless. We can still use it when describing the flow of gasses and fluids on a more abstract level, like in propellor design or meteorology.

The workings of a living body are also far from being fully understood. It's much less understood than the workings of a star for example. Not because supernatural things are happening, at least I don't think so. It's just that the living body has not yet been researched as exhaustively as astrophysics, because a living body is far more complex than a star.
If it hasn't been researched exhaustively, we don't even know what we don't know.
You're still not answering the question, though. All this might mean something if anyone could provide a concrete example of something in the martial arts that can't be explained by what we know of physics. You make a case here that such a thing could conceivably exist, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't, not that it can't.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:03 AM   #90
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
You seem to be saying you have some fixed amount of life energy or you're dead, but why couldn't we have more or less "life energy," comparatively speaking? If we look at light as a possible analogy: sure it's either light or it's isn't, but you can certainly have more light in some places than in others. Some folks do seem to burn brighter than others...at least, I've heard this from enough different people to consider it a compelling idea.
We know from physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So if we are increasing our life energy, where is is coming from? And if we are decreasing our life energy, where is it going?

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:07 AM   #91
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Very good point - problem is that some folks think their objectives are the same, however their results are different - so, who is correct?

Greg
Why does the answer have to be in binary format? There are always variations of success when it comes to meeting objectives, especially when trying to measure results of human performance in specific areas. Humans are all tailored differently and performance measurements related to specific common objectives will be affected by more variables than one's training methods. So it's not surprising that different people will achieve different results even though they have the same objectives and train in the same manner.

Ron

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:18 AM   #92
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
We know from physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So if we are increasing our life energy, where is is coming from? And if we are decreasing our life energy, where is it going?
Good questions! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...,6326048.story
I'm not saying this is an example of "life energy," but its elusive nature points to a potential similarity in nature. There is much theorizing on dark/invisible "things."
Coincidentally I heard on NPR the other day that the term "God Particle" was the product of a publisher not liking the more matter-of-fact title chosen by the author.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:29 AM   #93
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post

So what? You're saying that scientist may discover something in the future. Scientists may discover invisible elephants in the future. That doesn't mean it makes sense to believe in them now.
Matthew:

Science is based upon the null hypothesis. Nothing is science is based upon 100% certainty, but upon degrees of probability. It is very common for scientists to conveniently forget this point and try and frame their understandings as being "fact".

Major advances in science have taken place because scientists formulate alternative understandings of events. Low and behold, when they develop means and methods for determining that this "new" understanding has a high probability of explaining things, other people change their minds and accept the new "facts."

Strident assertions of understandings should be balanced by keeping an open mind to alternative explanations. I like to say that I am the first to put my ideas out there and the first to admit that they are wrong when presented with information that leads me to rethink my current position.

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:56 AM   #94
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
How come biologists don't talk about ki then? Are their explanations of how the mind moves the body incomplete?
Please share with us the details of those explanations

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
First of all, you made it human sacrifices, not me. Second of all, a lot of people believing in something does not make it true. It is widely believed in Korea that leaving a box fan on all night will chill a room to sub-zero temperatures and cause hypothermia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...misconceptions).
This whole section of the discussion is out context and is going nowhere on both sides, so how about dropping it.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
So what? You're saying that scientist may discover something in the future. Scientists may discover invisible elephants in the future. That doesn't mean it makes sense to believe in them now.
The concept of ki provides answers to questions current physics cannot totally explain - to not to believe in ki would require belief in something else that does provide all the answers - to say something does not exist because it cannot be totally explained by the science of the day is essentially having the same mindset of those that believed the world was flat - people need to question, dream, imagine, and explore; that is how we grow, learn, and develop new technologies.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Let me put it to you this way: why shouldn't I believe that changing the thought changes the action, and that therefore what my partner is feeling is a change in action brought about by a change in thought? What evidence is there that my explanation (which is much simpler, much cleaner, and much more consistent with what we know of science) needs ki to be complete?
What action are you talking about? in your simple model, is the other person feeling your thoughts or reading your mind? I am talking about two people standing still with one physical connection between them that can be anywhere on either body; and one person will simply use mental intent to send energy out into the other person and have it move in that person in an up, down, sideways, or circular direction with absolutely no physical movement by either party. In my ki model, it is my ki controlling the other persons ki just like I can control the flow of ki energy in my own body. How can your thought model control the other person's thoughts or will?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
How do you use ki, if not with the mind and/or will?
Never said ki was not used or controlled in my body without intent. As I said in my #79 post, none of us know for sure exactly what ki is and we are all guessing. However, I have been refining my model of it for 35 years to keep answering questions that physics fail to do; and believe it or not, I am a very practical technologist that relies on physics for most things. However, physics just does provide me all the answers that my model of ki can - so, until someone can prove where my model is wrong, I am sticking with it.

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:22 PM   #95
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Matthew:

Science is based upon the null hypothesis. Nothing is science is based upon 100% certainty, but upon degrees of probability. It is very common for scientists to conveniently forget this point and try and frame their understandings as being "fact".

Major advances in science have taken place because scientists formulate alternative understandings of events. Low and behold, when they develop means and methods for determining that this "new" understanding has a high probability of explaining things, other people change their minds and accept the new "facts."

Strident assertions of understandings should be balanced by keeping an open mind to alternative explanations. I like to say that I am the first to put my ideas out there and the first to admit that they are wrong when presented with information that leads me to rethink my current position.

Marc Abrams
I am always open to new ideas; I just have never heard a really good reason to believe in ki. So until I hear one, I'm going to go on being an unbeliever.

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Old 07-05-2012, 12:38 PM   #96
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Please share with us the details of those explanations
You have me there; I'm not a biologist. But as I see it, the burden of proof is on the believer and not the non-believer. We all learned in high school biology that the brain sends electric signals to the muscles by way of the nervous system and the muscles respond; I think it's up to the ki believer to explain why that's not good enough.

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whole section of the discussion is out context and is going nowhere on both sides, so how about dropping it.
It's going nowhere because, on this particular point, you're wrong and you either can't see it or won't admit it. I'm sorry to sound harsh, and I mean no disrespect, but history is clear about this. The assertion that something must be correct because lots of people have believed it over a long period of time is just plain wrong. It has been disproved over and over again.

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The concept of ki provides answers to questions current physics cannot totally explain - to not to believe in ki would require belief in something else that does provide all the answers - to say something does not exist because it cannot be totally explained by the science of the day is essentially having the same mindset of those that believed the world was flat - people need to question, dream, imagine, and explore; that is how we grow, learn, and develop new technologies.
You are seeing a gap that I don't see. What in the martial arts needs explaining and cannot be explained by physics?

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What action are you talking about? in your simple model, is the other person feeling your thoughts or reading your mind? I am talking about two people standing still with one physical connection between them that can be anywhere on either body; and one person will simply use mental intent to send energy out into the other person and have it move in that person in an up, down, sideways, or circular direction with absolutely no physical movement by either party.
I simply don't believe that happens.

I think what you are describing is actually the effect of subtle changes in what our muscles are doing and how they are asserting themselves. The reason that sometimes we don't see much of it externally is that our muscles aren't visible from the outside, especially in a gi. There are some guys (like the aforementioned Ikeda) that have gotten very good at doing this very subtly--and that kind of skill is an amazing thing and should not be scoffed at--but they're still using physics.

I
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n my ki model, it is my ki controlling the other persons ki just like I can control the flow of ki energy in my own body. How can your thought model control the other person's thoughts or will?
It can't. But I question your belief that controlling someone else's will is possible.

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Never said ki was not used or controlled in my body without intent. As I said in my #79 post, none of us know for sure exactly what ki is and we are all guessing.
Which I consider strong evidence that it doesn't really exist.

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However, I have been refining my model of it for 35 years to keep answering questions that physics fail to do; and believe it or not, I am a very practical technologist that relies on physics for most things. However, physics just does provide me all the answers that my model of ki can - so, until someone can prove where my model is wrong, I am sticking with it.
Once again, I've never heard such a question (at least in terms of how the martial arts work), and once again, the burden of proof is on the believer and not the non-believer.

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:09 PM   #97
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
You have me there; I'm not a biologist. But as I see it, the burden of proof is on the believer and not the non-believer. We all learned in high school biology that the brain sends electric signals to the muscles by way of the nervous system and the muscles respond; I think it's up to the ki believer to explain why that's not good enough.
I just see another layer there that helps explain what is happening with fascia and not muscle. I don't see the nervous system doing much with fascia - but as I said, who knows for sure.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
It's going nowhere because, on this particular point, you're wrong and you either can't see it or won't admit it. I'm sorry to sound harsh, and I mean no disrespect, but history is clear about this. The assertion that something must be correct because lots of people have believed it over a long period of time is just plain wrong. It has been disproved over and over again.
Simple qualitative analysis - the larger the sample of data, the higher probability of a true outcome - of course, not a guarantee.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
You are seeing a gap that I don't see. What in the martial arts needs explaining and cannot be explained by physics?
some of the things like I talked about at the bottom

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I simply don't believe that happens.
no one is trying to convert you to believe anything - just sharing thoughts and experiences.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I think what you are describing is actually the effect of subtle changes in what our muscles are doing and how they are asserting themselves. The reason that sometimes we don't see much of it externally is that our muscles aren't visible from the outside, especially in a gi. There are some guys (like the aforementioned Ikeda) that have gotten very good at doing this very subtly--and that kind of skill is an amazing thing and should not be scoffed at--but they're still using physics.
How can a subtle change in my muscles present a feeling of an energy moving and changing directions in someone else? especially when muscle contractions inhibits the flow of energy.
I
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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
It can't. But I question your belief that controlling someone else's will is possible.
who said I was controlling their will? I said their ki

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Which I consider strong evidence that it doesn't really exist.
there is no evidience that it does not exist nor is there real evidence that it does - all we have are beliefs based on opinion and experience.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Once again, I've never heard such a question (at least in terms of how the martial arts work), and once again, the burden of proof is on the believer and not the non-believer.
There is no burden of proof for anyone here since I am not trying to prove anything - as I said, just sharing some beliefs based on opinion and experiences. As you progress though your martial life and gain more experiences, you will change things as well, and you may even revisit things you were told did not exist because you may have come across some stuff that may point in a different direction.

Good luck in your journey

Greg
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Old 07-05-2012, 01:31 PM   #98
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I just see another layer there that helps explain what is happening with fascia and not muscle. I don't see the nervous system doing much with fascia - but as I said, who knows for sure.
Scientists know for sure.
http://brainconnection.positscience....nat/motor-anat
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Simple qualitative analysis - the larger the sample of data, the higher probability of a true outcome - of course, not a guarantee.
Not only is it not a guarantee, but popular sentiment has been wrong in the case of nearly every major scientific discovery in history. If popular sentiment had been right, there would have been nothing to discover. Popular sentiment, in short, provides no meaningful evidence for anything except popular sentiment.
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no one is trying to convert you to believe anything - just sharing thoughts and experiences.
I understand that, but we are on opposite sides of an argument, right? In order for that to continue, each of us must be asserting that the other is wrong.
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How can a subtle change in my muscles present a feeling of an energy moving and changing directions in someone else?
You don't think muscles can cause someone to feel they're changing direction? Other people's muscles change my direction in the dojo all the time. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

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especially when muscle contractions inhibits the flow of energy.
Citation needed.

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who said I was controlling their will? I said their ki
"How can your thought model control the other person's thoughts or will?"
I assumed that's what you were saying in the above sentence. Am I misunderstanding you?

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there is no evidience that it does not exist nor is there real evidence that it does - all we have are beliefs based on opinion and experience.
Non-belief doesn't need evidence. I have no evidence that there isn't a ghost named Norman flying around putting ideas into people's heads, but I choose not to believe in Norman because of the absence of evidence. It is up to the Normanist to prove that Norman does exist; it's not up to me to prove that he doesn't.
[quote]There is no burden of proof for anyone here since I am not trying to prove anything - as I said, just sharing some beliefs based on opinion and experiences.[.quote]
Again, this discussion dies unless you're asserting that I'm wrong. Are you or aren't you? If not, then there's no point in continuing. If so, then back to that burden of proof.

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As you progress though your martial life and gain more experiences, you will change things as well, and you may even revisit things you were told did not exist because you may have come across some stuff that may point in a different direction.
We certainly do change as we learn, and I do like to keep an open mind. But let me ask you this: have you ever heard of anyone "discovering" ki, that is, coming to believe in ki on their own without being taught about ki by an instructor? I think the answer to that question is a clue to the likelihood that I'll ever have such an experience.
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Good luck in your journey

Greg
Thank you, honestly.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-05-2012 at 01:42 PM.

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:32 PM   #99
chillzATL
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Re: Ki to the Highway

The solution is simple... stuff an aikidoka into the LHC. We'll get our answers on way or another!
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Old 07-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #100
phitruong
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
and once again, the burden of proof is on the believer and not the non-believer.
why would the burden of the proof be on the believer? if because of my belief, i can get my stuffs to work and you don't believe and can't get it to work. why would it me to prove it to you? for example, if the fire walker that can walk across the burning coals and doesn't get burn, but you can't. why would the fire walker has to prove in some physics/chemistry/biology/whatever to you? take something closer to home, taking Ikeda sensei when he said "i moved my inside", is it his burden to prove to you that his techniques worked and your couldn't because he actually either moved his inside or not?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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