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Old 07-04-2012, 10:05 AM   #51
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Then what is that definition?
"That" definition would be based on whatever the common experience is. My point was that meaning is developed over time, based on experiences. I personally like "intent" for providing a functional definition, but (I think) that's beside the point. My being able to form a discrete definition desn't give me any real understanding, and it's that understanding which I think is most important when dealing with terms, not country of origin.

Quote:
It is sometimes useful to reference them all at once. The reason that logic doesn't extend to ki is that the word ki doesn't explain itself. The Greek roots of biomechanics make it abundantly clear to anyone who speaks a language that makes a lot of use of Greek (like English and most Slavic and Romance languages). I can simply say the word and everyone knows what I'm talking about and, just as importantly, what I'm not talking about. Not so with ki.
Only because of the familiarity/interaction with those composite terms. Furthermore, knowing the roots doesn't tell you anything other than it has to do with biology and mechanics. It doesn't tell you how to apply it in any meaingful way; it just gives you a ball-park idea. If you want to apply it meaningflly, you still have to do some kind of research.

Quote:
The problem with ki is that, when used, it makes things less clear; it is a stumbling block to communication rather than an aid to it. (Note here that I am referring specifically to ki as we use it in the martial arts, not the many ways it is used in the Japanese language.)
Until commonality can be established, just as with all terms. This is why I suggested the problem isn't with the term so much as with the research/study that informs it. The term means whatever peopl want it to mean but that's the way all terms work. The problem is that people are content to not question its meaning past the point of convenience; to assume they understand it sufficiently; or to assume the othr person automatically understands the sense in which it's being used.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-04-2012 at 10:07 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:22 AM   #52
PaulF
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
According to some philosophers and scientists science does not explain anything at all, it gives a description of reality. Much like a recipe for an apple-pie. The recipe does not tell you anything about the sensation of eating the apple-pie or the taste of it. It only gives one description out of many of how you could make it.

There are still a lot of things that we cannot describe in a scientific way. Of many of these things we are totally unaware. Of some of it we are aware, but we find it hard to find words for it.

That is were poetry, metaphor, myths and stories come in. They have value to us in many different ways and can give us at times more comfort then science.

Being connected to nature is an important aspect of most budo. To me, living in the forests, this means in a very practical sense being aware of all the things that are happening in these forests, in other words being aware of the structure and the connectedness of everything.

I am surprised that your uni friend separates teaching Aikido from his understanding of how nature works? Combining these are for me the challenge.

Tom
Hi Tom

I know what you're saying but in a sense the hard sciences explain lots of things, e.g. how planes stay up in the air, what's going on in the ecosystems of the forests where you live, or the mountains where I live, and ecosystems (and planes) are very much about structure and connectedness for sure. However, whether these explanations encompass values and meaning as well as matters of fact is one of the big areas of philosophical contention. I'm not sure what I think about that stuff as I try to avoid doing that sort of philosophy these days, it makes my head hurt

I'm loathe to speak for my friend about this stuff as he does that sort of philosophy on a daily basis but I suspect he'd say that his approach to aikido is entirely congruent with his understanding of how nature works, since he's a metaphysical naturalist, but then he'd probably get into a long discussion about what exactly we think we mean by nature.

In this I go along with him - I don't hold with supernatural stuff, be that deities, ghosts, souls, etc. so to that extent we agree with Matthew's OP. Where I differ is that I don't see why ki/chi shouldn't be useful shorthand. I guess what I think of as ki/chi is pretty much synonymous with IS/IP, the choice of terms is a matter of tradition (I prefer "shomen-uchi" to "overhead strike to head" for the same reason). Visualising my breath going down to my hara and coming up from there is useful, and interesting, and effective, even though I know it stops at my lungs and the effects are probably to do with relaxation, increased oxygen uptake, meditative effects from concentrated focus, etc. not the permeation of a mysterious universal force through ever expanding and diminishing concentric circles or something.

Cheers

Paul
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:25 AM   #53
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I completely disagree. Ki is not a form of energy it is controlled use of the body systems through intent. It's effects -on the body- are palpable so people incorrectly assign it to an "energy" all it's own.
Think ki will not produce anything real
Managing your body systems to think "lead ki" in certain described manners produces real results in a health system of moving your bodies energy and in a martial system to produce power.

Dan
Damn, if you agreed with everything I said, I would start to wonder about you

Whether ki is an energy or not is not important; no one really knows for sure - However, I like to look at it like that because it supports how I understand to lead ki with my intent to produces real results as you mention above and in what you teach - it also helps in how I understand to control the energies of those I connect with. Until someone can actually show exactly what it is or is not, this works very well for me.

I agree with you on all your other points in how ki in and of itself is not the answer - but how it is used as part of the process of heart leads mind, mind leads intent, intent leads ki, and ki leads body, is effective. For something to exist, it has to consist of either energy or matter - ki as matter is a real stretch, even for those wackos out there, so that just leaves energy

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 07-04-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:28 AM   #54
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I completely disagree. Ki is not a form of energy it is controlled use of the body systems through intent. It's effects -on the body- are palpable so people incorrectly assign it to an "energy" all it's own.
Think ki will not produce anything real
Managing your body systems to think "lead ki" in certain described manners produces real results in a health system of moving your bodies energy and in a martial system to produce power.

I really don't care what most people in Budo think about it. What they have written about is mostly guess work and regurgitated nonsense tatamount to a "belief system," Japanese and Westerners alike.They fail in producing anything other than fairy tale cooperative nonsense. In so doing they give a very real technology a bad name.

Others use it to make some progress and while doing *some* correct things that organize the body, they mistakenly assign it to woo woo energy.

Some famous teachers have waaay overplayed their hand, conning people into thinking they are producing an "energy" outside of themselves that controls their environment and others.
There's nothing much to be done. People WANT to believe this nonsense, so much so, that even in the face of it failing...over and over, they still allow themselves to get sucked and enthralled by an otherwise not so spectacular methodology. In fact, when pressed, the big shots don't really....have.....a way to teach it.
Why?
Because it isn't real.

I very politely avoid shaking that tree and completely taking apart these manufactured cons. There are practical and real methods to explore power generation through the correct use of six harmonies. People following the real methods will forever own the charlatans and the earnest ner-do-wells with their belief systems.

My best suggestion is for everyone to avoid each other. On contact it is not going to go very well. And some, coming face to face with their beliefs falling apart, and others with seeing a famous teachers fail against a nobody, will resent it and resent you for doing it. In the mean time they go about throwing themselves and twisting up in knots in front of some Asian guy!! Always and always an Asian guy... huh boys and girls?" Oh well. People will come to the natural end results in time. There is going to be an inescapable conclusion as in the end they themselves have and got nothing....while others learn to produce power using the real ki methods that were discussed for ages.
Dan
Dan:

I disagree with this position. When a negative (angry, depressed, etc) person approaches an infant, why does that child begin to get upset and cry? When you are driving and turn your head to see the person staring at you, what were you responding too? You walk into a room filled with people whom you never met before and you know instantly what the "vibe" in the room is and who you want to approach and who you don't want to approach-> what is happening? Most communication is non-verbal. There are countless examples of similar experiences. What is so hard to believe that this non-verbal communication is energy-based. I view this energy as "Ki"-> life energy. How this "Ki" can be used in a martial paradigm is a valid question. I think that you are simply tossing the baby out with the bath water. I would suspect that you do believe in this type of energy as existing. I would also suspect that you are doing your own personal experimentation with gaining some awareness of it's role in your training paradigms. Then again, I could be wrong........

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:32 AM   #55
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Really Graham, you have sometimes a curious way of knitting things together.

Vital comes from the latin vita - life.
Elan means "spirited" or "enthusiastic". It can also refer to someone who is in motion. Elan vital is the main subject of philosophy of Bergson, one of the more wellknown and important French philosophers.

Did you not already suggest life force as a translation? Comes close to elan vital.

Tom
Much the same as what I said no? I add vital as a word because it too has the same root and shows that Ki is vital. Vital life energy.

As is prana, qi, chi, etc.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #56
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Yes, what is that definition of Ki that everybody seems to agree upon?

Part of the problem is that we in the western part of the world, have disconnected the original meaning of ki, and have given it a limited meaning that we apply only to the martial arts. This limited version of ki leans too often towards something magical. Some think that some have it and others do not. As there is no solid definition of this limited version of ki and there is no longer a connection with the original way of thinking we unwillingly create our own vague ideas about ki.
The Japanese teachers that I have met don't have any problems with the idea of ki, as it is a common word in the Japanese language. Even without giving it much thought they naturally associate it with a mood, a feeling, a thought, the mind, life (if people do not have ki, they are deceased), etc.
Ki is like spirit with its Latin - Greek history, a word rich in associations, interpretations - a word with a very long philosophical history.
We tend to associate ki as only having to do with the application of a technique. But in Chinese/Japanese philosophy, as has been taught to the samurai for many centuries, ki not only refers to martial skills but ki is the "carrier" of ethics and esthetics. This explains why in Japan even today budo grading is not just given based on being successful in throwing (our Western idea of objective results), but just as much based on ethical behaviour and esthetics.

Without its original context ki has become a rather poor, meager word and it is this limited version of ki that is creating much of the confusions.

In day to day life we already use different words to explain ki to people unfamiliar with the word. In that sense we do not really need the word ki.
Personally I use the word ki in my Aikido lessons in reference to the classic Chinese/Japanese philosophical context and try to avoid any debate on the modern interpretations or limited versions of ki.

Tom
I like this. Nice.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:42 AM   #57
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:

I disagree with this position. When a negative (angry, depressed, etc) person approaches an infant, why does that child begin to get upset and cry? When you are driving and turn your head to see the person staring at you, what were you responding too? You walk into a room filled with people whom you never met before and you know instantly what the "vibe" in the room is and who you want to approach and who you don't want to approach-> what is happening? Most communication is non-verbal. There are countless examples of similar experiences. What is so hard to believe that this non-verbal communication is energy-based. I view this energy as "Ki"-> life energy. How this "Ki" can be used in a martial paradigm is a valid question. I think that you are simply tossing the baby out with the bath water. I would suspect that you do believe in this type of energy as existing. I would also suspect that you are doing your own personal experimentation with gaining some awareness of it's role in your training paradigms. Then again, I could be wrong........

Marc Abrams
+1 - all very good points on ki outside the martial environment that fall within my model as well.

Greg
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:12 PM   #58
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Then what is that definition?

But aikido is not abstract. An aikido technique, when performed correctly, produces a specific, measurable, physical result. What place has abstraction in there?

It is sometimes useful to reference them all at once. The reason that logic doesn't extend to ki is that the word ki doesn't explain itself. The Greek roots of biomechanics make it abundantly clear to anyone who speaks a language that makes a lot of use of Greek (like English and most Slavic and Romance languages). I can simply say the word and everyone knows what I'm talking about and, just as importantly, what I'm not talking about. Not so with ki.

Specificity and clarity are not clutter. The subtle differences between synonyms allow us to convey nuance.

The problem with ki isn't that it is a word for something else. The problem with ki is that, when used, it makes things less clear; it is a stumbling block to communication rather than an aid to it. (Note here that I am referring specifically to ki as we use it in the martial arts, not the many ways it is used in the Japanese language.)
You are saying that you'd rather not use the term ki, because its meaning is not clear enough to be helpful for learning how to use your body.

That may be true, but why do you expect explanations from physics to be more helpful? Explaining about gravity, friction and mechanics in general will not help me much either when I want to learn to ride a bike, become a ballet dance or a martial artist.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:20 PM   #59
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Re: Ki to the Highway

I think that this has something to do with Ki
http://news.yahoo.com/closer-look-hi...164427722.html
As I tryed to expostulate on another thread/blog. It is an energy and why we assign positive and negative attractions to basically all things and experiences. The energy.
This is the thing that gives the molecules the attraction (so far they think) to combine into living beings.
Doesnt explain sentient beings, just the forms they take. Earth, man, woman, the heavens.
Intent leads Ki within the body systems. Connecting on a universal level is a whole other level.
Right now most of us are bound by the physical form and its limitations.
A partial physical explanation , very partial, anyway.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:30 PM   #60
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
A couple of you have asserted that there are things in aikido that cannot be explained by physics, or at least by physics as we currently understand it. Can anyone point to a specific instance of this? That, I think, would hit the proverbial nail on the head and make this thread into a single coherent conversation.
Some things cannot be explained in detail by physics. That means that the phenomenon is just too complicated to explain in detail from first principles (in such detail that you would be able to write a computer program that calculates a simulation of the process). This does not mean that the phenomenon is supernatural.
Turbulence is an example from physics itself. Richard Feynman called it "the most important unsolved problem of classical physics". It's still unsolved.
Even though we can't explain it fully, the concept is not useless. We can still use it when describing the flow of gasses and fluids on a more abstract level, like in propellor design or meteorology.

The workings of a living body are also far from being fully understood. It's much less understood than the workings of a star for example. Not because supernatural things are happening, at least I don't think so. It's just that the living body has not yet been researched as exhaustively as astrophysics, because a living body is far more complex than a star.
If it hasn't been researched exhaustively, we don't even know what we don't know.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 07-04-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #61
Alister Gillies
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Re: Ki to the Highway

First off, I am not an authority on Ki. I have written about it, but that does not make me an expert - http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...es/#more-20054.

What I can say is that in my own experience, for what it's worth, understanding Ki is as difficult or as easy as you want to make it, that there is no 'catch all' definition for it and that it is virtually impossible to separate the 'use of it' from the 'user'. Physical people have physical Ki, spiritual people have spiritual Ki, happy people have happy Ki and depressed people have a tough time. Sceptical people have...let's hear it.

People are capable of change: a physical person can learn to relax, a relaxed person can build up their muscles and a depressed person can even learn to become happy in time. The Ki that each of us has, at any given moment in time, is a reflection of our existential condition. Ki is not static, and it is not an object in some imaginary martial arsenal.

Ki is a coin of two sides, mind and body. Sure we can now measure alpha, beta, delta and theta waves that reflect back how happy, depressed or tranquil we are and there is a clear correlation between physical states and mind states, but so what? This is an intellectual approach, and all that stuff is 'about' Ki - it is just feedback, not the thing in itself.

And this is IMO points to the central problem with Ki and many other concepts that come from Chinese culture: as long as we think about Ki as an object then we will have difficulties. Without reference to yin and yang - the unification of opposites - Ki does not make much sense. But, at the same time, you don't have to be a Taoist scholar to understand Ki.

Having spent over two decades (but no longer) practicing Ki Aikido, and never learning anything about yin and yang, I now understand what was missing. To some extent the principles are built into the practice (mind body coordination, weight underside, etc) but the full value and significance is understated and not developed. But this is not only in Ki Aikido, it is true of Aikikai Aikido as well.

While some individuals have managed to 'catch on' to something as a result of their own efforts, more by accident than design, many have not and continue to practice until they hit a ceiling and can't improve. Most people in Aikido cannot get better than their teachers, and their teachers cannot improve much because they have no one to help them move forward - apart from their students who are often treated as lab rats.

But to get back to the point. Ki is not an object, and if we are able to unify mind and body (yin and yang) and access whole body power (rather than isolated muscle groups) and therefore get closer to what 'aiki' is all about, we will understand Ki and perhaps understand too that we are as likely to see ourselves 'mind bodying', as we are able to taste our tongue tasting, or see our eyes seeing or hear our ears hearing. There is always bio-feedback, but I prefer to cut out the middle man. For those looking for the absolutely definitive in a relative world, good luck.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:22 PM   #62
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Much the same as what I said no? I add vital as a word because it too has the same root and shows that Ki is vital. Vital life energy.

As is prana, qi, chi, etc.

Peace.G.
Sure, prana, pneuma, chi, ki, almost every culture has this similar concept. Only modern western languages seem to lack this concept.

I just made a small comment on your way of associating words, I sometimes struggle with your English language. Much like I sometimes struggle with some of the words that posters from the u.s use.

Tom
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:41 PM   #63
lbb
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Re: Ki to the Highway

...Asian guy? The whatnow?
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:04 PM   #64
gregstec
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Re: Ki to the Highway

Quote:
Alister Gillies wrote: View Post
First off, I am not an authority on Ki. I have written about it, but that does not make me an expert - http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...es/#more-20054.

What I can say is that in my own experience, for what it's worth, understanding Ki is as difficult or as easy as you want to make it, that there is no 'catch all' definition for it and that it is virtually impossible to separate the 'use of it' from the 'user'. Physical people have physical Ki, spiritual people have spiritual Ki, happy people have happy Ki and depressed people have a tough time. Sceptical people have...let's hear it.

People are capable of change: a physical person can learn to relax, a relaxed person can build up their muscles and a depressed person can even learn to become happy in time. The Ki that each of us has, at any given moment in time, is a reflection of our existential condition. Ki is not static, and it is not an object in some imaginary martial arsenal.

Ki is a coin of two sides, mind and body. Sure we can now measure alpha, beta, delta and theta waves that reflect back how happy, depressed or tranquil we are and there is a clear correlation between physical states and mind states, but so what? This is an intellectual approach, and all that stuff is 'about' Ki - it is just feedback, not the thing in itself.

And this is IMO points to the central problem with Ki and many other concepts that come from Chinese culture: as long as we think about Ki as an object then we will have difficulties. Without reference to yin and yang - the unification of opposites - Ki does not make much sense. But, at the same time, you don't have to be a Taoist scholar to understand Ki.

Having spent over two decades (but no longer) practicing Ki Aikido, and never learning anything about yin and yang, I now understand what was missing. To some extent the principles are built into the practice (mind body coordination, weight underside, etc) but the full value and significance is understated and not developed. But this is not only in Ki Aikido, it is true of Aikikai Aikido as well.

While some individuals have managed to 'catch on' to something as a result of their own efforts, more by accident than design, many have not and continue to practice until they hit a ceiling and can't improve. Most people in Aikido cannot get better than their teachers, and their teachers cannot improve much because they have no one to help them move forward - apart from their students who are often treated as lab rats.

But to get back to the point. Ki is not an object, and if we are able to unify mind and body (yin and yang) and access whole body power (rather than isolated muscle groups) and therefore get closer to what 'aiki' is all about, we will understand Ki and perhaps understand too that we are as likely to see ourselves 'mind bodying', as we are able to taste our tongue tasting, or see our eyes seeing or hear our ears hearing. There is always bio-feedback, but I prefer to cut out the middle man. For those looking for the absolutely definitive in a relative world, good luck.
Very good post - it says a lot and it says nothing definitive at the same time; simply due to the fact that there really is no definitive thing to say about the subject. I like your article over at Aikido Journal as well.

I think the most important thing you said is that you cannot separate the use of ki from the user - it really is a personal thing and will remain so until there can be a definitive answer to exactly what it is. To me knowing what the end result of your process that includes ki is where people need to focus - as long as the end result is true, whatever you do or believe in that process is what is right for you. Case in point is my story of that guy in Massecusetes that told me to extent my intent - I simply complied by extending ki as I believed it to achieve the end result that he could feel as correct. That guy does not have to agree with me on how I view that process ( and he has already said he does not ) but the thing is, I had the result he was looking for in that exchange; simple as that. So, the lesson is to know what it is you want to accomplish and make it your own without the delusion of self nor the distraction of others.

Greg
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:05 PM   #65
graham christian
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Sure, prana, pneuma, chi, ki, almost every culture has this similar concept. Only modern western languages seem to lack this concept.

I just made a small comment on your way of associating words, I sometimes struggle with your English language. Much like I sometimes struggle with some of the words that posters from the u.s use.

Tom
I think it's good to look at it generally from the view of eastern way of looking at things and western wat, culturally. I emphasize general, rather than specific.

The eastern views inherent in their philosophies and culturally accepted had these words and concepts as you say and so even those not interested in the higher realms and disciplines to do with them were fully cognizant of them.

Here in the west it was a different story. "I think therefor I am" was more the philosophy. Thinking and intellectualism looked upon as more the 'higher realms'. (especially in the modern ages)

So in the east wisdom and enlightenment closely associated with such things, in the west, mind.

In the east, zen, buddhism, etc. 'getting rid' of the mind, thus seeing the importance of self realization and spirit and life connection. In the west emphasizing the mind and denying the spirit, thus no words culturally and seen as strange.

In the east......"I think therefor I am not"

Peace, G.
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:02 PM   #66
stan baker
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Re: Ki to the Highway

The Buddha said above and below I am the only one

stan
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:30 PM   #67
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...Asian guy? The whatnow?
he was talking about me. don't worry about it. it's all about stuffs that drove westerners mad for generations. it keeps them occupied while the asians go about owning the world. once we owned the world we would just tell them that it was all a big joke really, and they were the punch line.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:54 AM   #68
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The nervous system is not of the mind, it is physical and it is controlled by the mind - the bridge is the ki.
If the mind can control the body, why does it need a bridge?

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Who ever said the sacrifice of people to the gods was wrong? at the time I sure it served a purpose and had functions in the society - today they have found other solutions for those functions
They have found other solutions because that one was wrong. I'm not having a conversation here about whether or not human sacrifice is wrong.

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- ki/chi belief is still very much alive within the Eastern cultures - and until someone comes along with a better solution to the functions it serves, it will stay that way.
The point of the blog post is that I think we do have better solutions. We have physics.

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To me, ki is a form of energy much like electrical, magnetic, and other forms of energy within the electro-magnetic spectrum that resides in both the mental and physical domains of all living things as well as in the atomic structure of inanimate objects.
How come physicists have never found ki on the electromagnetic spectrum, then?

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It can be felt, developed, and controlled by all sentient beings within themselves as well as in others with the proper connection - in a nut shell, I see ki as how Tohei taught it. This model of ki can explain why an opponent can feel energy movement within themselves that is being controlled by someone else that is simply connected to them with no physical movement - how does your model explain that?

Greg
Are you saying that I should be able to stand still, make no physical movement at all, and make you feel "energy movement", just with the use of my mind and will? That sounds like a magic trick, not martial art.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 07-05-2012 at 01:07 AM.

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:03 AM   #69
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
"That" definition would be based on whatever the common experience is.
I don't think we can say conclusively that there is a common experience. How is there any way to know that five different people who say they are feeling ki aren't feeling five different things?

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My point was that meaning is developed over time, based on experiences. I personally like "intent" for providing a functional definition, but (I think) that's beside the point. My being able to form a discrete definition desn't give me any real understanding, and it's that understanding which I think is most important when dealing with terms, not country of origin.
First of all, I question how complete an understanding can be that does not produce a definition. Second of all, what good is that understanding to a conversation like this if it cannot be conveyed to someone else?

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Only because of the familiarity/interaction with those composite terms. Furthermore, knowing the roots doesn't tell you anything other than it has to do with biology and mechanics. It doesn't tell you how to apply it in any meaingful way; it just gives you a ball-park idea. If you want to apply it meaningflly, you still have to do some kind of research.
I guess you're right, but it's still a far cry better defined at the outset than ki.

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Until commonality can be established, just as with all terms. This is why I suggested the problem isn't with the term so much as with the research/study that informs it. The term means whatever peopl want it to mean but that's the way all terms work. The problem is that people are content to not question its meaning past the point of convenience; to assume they understand it sufficiently; or to assume the othr person automatically understands the sense in which it's being used.
You are more optimistic than I. I'm not convinced commonality can be established.

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:30 AM   #70
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
... I view this energy as "Ki" ...
Why?
As far as I see it, Daoist texts about qi are more specific about what qi is? And they fit much more to what I understand to be Dan's view of ki? ("Managing your body systems to think "lead ki" in certain described manners produces real results in a health system of moving your bodies energy and in a martial system to produce power.")

Where do you "anchor" this wide, open view of qi in the tradition or historical heritage of the knowledge of ki? Where does it come from?
Even when referred to as something like energy, isn't it allways connected to certain "bodily/physical" aspects?

I'm still thinking about a conversation I had recently: Talking to two german teachers of Ki-Aikido they clearly stated that what is called "qi" in qi gong, tai chi, ... is something different than what is called "Ki" in Ki-Aikido. Not a different aspect or view of the same thing. But a different thing.
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:37 AM   #71
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Why?
As far as I see it, Daoist texts about qi are more specific about what qi is? And they fit much more to what I understand to be Dan's view of ki? ("Managing your body systems to think "lead ki" in certain described manners produces real results in a health system of moving your bodies energy and in a martial system to produce power.")

Where do you "anchor" this wide, open view of qi in the tradition or historical heritage of the knowledge of ki?
Where does it come from?
Even when referred to as something like energy, isn't it allways connected to certain "bodily/physical" aspects?

I'm still thinking about a conversation I had recently: Talking to two german teachers of Ki-Aikido they clearly stated that what is called "qi" in qi gong, tai chi, ... is something different than what is called "Ki" in Ki-Aikido. Not a different aspect or view of the same thing. But a different thing.
+1
And to address the last item
Talking to two german teachers of Ki-Aikido they clearly stated that what is called "qi" in qi gong, tai chi, ... is something different than what is called "Ki" in Ki-Aikido. Not a different aspect or view of the same thing. But a different thing.
Yes, the first one works...the other doesn't.
Which is why we had the ki wars in the first place. From what I heard, read and felt, the ki aikido people couldn't produce much. Well, they still can't against people who know what they're doing and how to train it. People are making up stuff as they go along, and if you are a Japanese teacher in a Western setting , you can make up quite a lot of stuff in the right rooms.
Get them all on a mat. Just do it...all will be known, and that right quick.

They NEVER....EVER will.
Dan
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:26 AM   #72
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think it's good to look at it generally from the view of eastern way of looking at things and western wat, culturally. I emphasize general, rather than specific.

The eastern views inherent in their philosophies and culturally accepted had these words and concepts as you say and so even those not interested in the higher realms and disciplines to do with them were fully cognizant of them.

Here in the west it was a different story. "I think therefor I am" was more the philosophy. Thinking and intellectualism looked upon as more the 'higher realms'. (especially in the modern ages)

So in the east wisdom and enlightenment closely associated with such things, in the west, mind.

In the east, zen, buddhism, etc. 'getting rid' of the mind, thus seeing the importance of self realization and spirit and life connection. In the west emphasizing the mind and denying the spirit, thus no words culturally and seen as strange.

In the east......"I think therefor I am not"

Peace, G.
Sounds like the start of a new thread ...
Tom
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:19 AM   #73
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post

I'm still thinking about a conversation I had recently: Talking to two german teachers of Ki-Aikido they clearly stated that what is called "qi" in qi gong, tai chi, ... is something different than what is called "Ki" in Ki-Aikido. Not a different aspect or view of the same thing. But a different thing.
Well, I am from the old Ki Society and I do not see them as different; just different in application - Maybe those guys missed something along the way - if ki is some form of energy, as I like to look at it, they can be the same and simply applied in different processes to effect different results. I really think the answer to all these questions is in how one looks at the components of the heart leads mind, mind leads intent, intent leads ki, and ki leads body. If there really is no thing as ki, then why is it listed in that process? why not just skip it and say intent leads body? - all parts of a process have a function, so what is the function of ki in that application?

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 07-05-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:36 AM   #74
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Robert John wrote: View Post

Maybe a good place to start would be how a typical person handles a push, versus how someone else with skills handles a push.

Just to get the ball rolling, I'd say the human body is designed to handle vertical loads efficiently. It tends to be uneconomical when a horizontal load is brought into play.
So one question would be, how do you efficiently deal with an incoming horizontal force (assuming its coming from a person).
I would argue that the typical person meets a horizontal force with another horizontal force in the same direction, typically by using their arms and shoulder, or maybe if they're "good", using their hips and relaxed arms to push along the same horizontal direction.

Someone with skill isn't going to push along the same direction (a vector is really the proper term). Pushing "upwards" or vertically works well to to deal with an incoming force, but you don't really push upwards with your arms, or legs (or anything) as in that case you are actively pushing against the incoming force.

You would have to figure out how to take the horizontal force within you and convert it into a vertical force that goes down into the ground and then goes upwards

Mike Sigman's ground path exercises are a foot in the door for this stuff, since they initially teach you to relax and not try and add anything to push back. You do have to transition though, as the initial bringing it to the back foot seems to allow you to "push back" with the pushers force, but along the same direction. You have to figure out how to convert that push to a vertical component, as the more "vertical" the component, the harder it is for the pusher to exert force on you as they have nothing to push back with.

Strangely, the more vertical your reflection of the push from your partner is, the less you feel your partner and the less they feel you too..........
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:44 AM   #75
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Re: Ki to the Highway

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:

I disagree with this position. When a negative (angry, depressed, etc) person approaches an infant, why does that child begin to get upset and cry? When you are driving and turn your head to see the person staring at you, what were you responding too? You walk into a room filled with people whom you never met before and you know instantly what the "vibe" in the room is and who you want to approach and who you don't want to approach-> what is happening? Most communication is non-verbal. There are countless examples of similar experiences. What is so hard to believe that this non-verbal communication is energy-based.
Hi Marc,
I don't discount what you write above. And most things are energy-based. Physics tells us so.

However ...

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I view this energy as "Ki"-> life energy.
I don't view that energy as the "ki" from martial arts. If that "ki" was "life energy" which is all around us all the time, why did Ueshiba state at specific moments in training to "fill yourself with ki"? Wouldn't you already be filled with life energy? We want more life energy? It's like saying stand in six directions meaning stand in hanmi at a 60 degree angle.

As we've come to see with Chris Li's translations, Ueshiba meant some fairly specific martial training methods/concepts. I don't think this example of fill yourself with ki would be any different, but it isn't the overall "ki" definition everyone gives.

Actually, I wonder if some of what you stated above can't be tied into a collective consciousness theory.

Mark
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