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Old 03-16-2012, 04:05 AM   #1901
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joseph Dostie wrote: View Post
The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.
Dear Joseph,
Any beer bottle being used in a fight should of course be empty!! This is usually my opening gambit in relation to coaching newbies.My other advice is this if you are unfortunate to be attacked by a mad axeman ,and the gent lands one on your head , please leave said axe in place.This restricts the blood flow.Bandage around the weapon, do not remove it.Cheers, Joe
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:30 AM   #1902
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joseph Dostie wrote: View Post
The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.
Well, why else would we train with it then

Obviously attacks will come down the centreline. The shomen uchi is just a generalized simulated strike down that line, so that we can train to react against it. The sword cut, beer bottle bat, heavy metal bat, 2x4 plywood, iron pipe, hammerfist, etc. can all come down the centreline. So attacks do go through the same motion. If it didn't, we wouldn't even bother to have it in the course syllabus.

The key point I'm trying to make that it's not really an Aikido attack. "Aikido doesn't have any attacks!"... pure bull. It came from Daito-ryu, of course it has attacks. We just don't use them often. But when we do use attacks, I'm pretty certain all of you good folks of yudansha level must have better strikes than shomen uchi.

If not... well, time to ask sensei for atemi lessons
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:03 AM   #1903
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

On the whole thing of "Aikido doesn't have attacks".....

I think it is a bit of romanticism that "briefs well" when waxing poetically about the philosophy that is subscribe to aikido. It is a great vision to have for sure.

You could say the same thing about pretty much all jiu jitsu based arts really.

Jiu Jitsu is essentially used and was used in combat in days of yore when "all else failed", or you cannot draw your weapon. Hence, you do not have the upper hand. Or in clinical terms, you are behind your opponents OODA loop.

This means that you are REACTING to SOMETHING that has been done to you in some way and you are trying to re-establish your dominance, center, or in clinical terms...get back ahead of your opponents OODA loop.

Based on that, you could say that Aikido or any type of jiu jitsu does not have attacks!

However, IMO, once you've regained control of the situation and you are past the point of control, anything you do to your opponent is an "Attack".

Even in iriminage, once you irimi and control your opponent...and then enter again to put him down...well at that point you are "attacking".

Attacks don't have to be kicks or strikes, they can be any number of things meant to pre-empt or prevent your opponent from regaining control.

now, we can argue about the ethics of use of force of various things from shooting someone, to choking them, to simply pinning them all day long, but IMO, once we've crossed that line and gain control...any further action is an "attack".

So, I think it is nonsense and/or hypocritical to say Aikido does not have attacks.

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Old 03-16-2012, 07:27 AM   #1904
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

The expression "Aikido does not have attacks" will go the way of the dodo bird....

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:57 AM   #1905
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The expression "Aikido does not have attacks" will go the way of the dodo bird....

Marc Abrams
'em tasted like chicken, more so like free range chicken, which is a sort of a cowboy chicken but without the cow which tasted like beef.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:12 PM   #1906
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Jiu Jitsu is essentially used and was used in combat in days of yore when "all else failed", or you cannot draw your weapon. Hence, you do not have the upper hand. Or in clinical terms, you are behind your opponents OODA loop.
Exposing my ignorance here: What's "OODA?"

Last edited by akiy : 03-16-2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:48 PM   #1907
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

OODA loop

BTW, I think reading John Boyd works (And Osinga's "Science Strategy and War, The Strategic Theory of John Boyd") should be mandatoy for every serious martial artist.

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Old 03-16-2012, 02:02 PM   #1908
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sorry, I probably should referenced OODA. However, the reason I don't is got tired of doing it AND if you really care to understand you'll either go look it up, or ask the question "hey what is OODA!". Tells me alot if you are asking the question (in a good way!).

Thanks for the references Demetrio. Keep in mind that OODA is not about empty handed martial arts, but it still applies. Read it carefully, and think about it. IMO, it will unlock the secret between good practice and bad. If you understand OODA and it's importance, then you will be able to make correct decisions about evaluating your training!

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Old 03-16-2012, 02:31 PM   #1909
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks, I've seen similar - though different - takes on this with different acronyms. The first one that came to mind was Awareness, Assesment, and Action, which Julio Toribio (seibukan jujutsu) talked about in a seminar a few years ago.

I almost "googled" it, but asked instead, not from laziness, for whatever reason I decided to just ask.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #1910
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Glad you asked! yeah others have reached the same conclusions. Boyd simply did alot of PhD level work on the concept for the Air Force and did a very in depth analysis on it.

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Old 03-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #1911
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I wrote three blog post on OODA several years ago.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?s=OODA

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Old 03-16-2012, 04:05 PM   #1912
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

That's good stuff. I identify with your point about randori.

I HATE randori because I'm so bad at it, and yet I know that if we did randori more often I'd be all the better for it.

Someone recently asked me if I were in a fight, would I use jujutsu (something I have trained in longer) or aikido. My first response was that I'd probably use jujutsu-as I've done that for longer, but then I realized the answer is neither one, I'd use what 'felt' right at any given moment. I'd be using the OODA loop, and picking and choosing from both arts, and probably anything else that might come to mind.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:04 PM   #1913
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks for sharing. One thing about the OODA loop that is brought to life is that a 90 year old lady could beat up Anderson $ilva if she understand the principles and can stay ahead of his. It is not so much about the skill, but understanding the principles and how to beat your opponent.

So yes, you use whatever you have. Skill does come into play, especially when you are behind and must work to get back ahead.

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Old 03-16-2012, 06:29 PM   #1914
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks for sharing. One thing about the OODA loop that is brought to life is that a 90 year old lady could beat up Anderson $ilva if she understand the principles and can stay ahead of his. It is not so much about the skill, but understanding the principles and how to beat your opponent.

So yes, you use whatever you have. Skill does come into play, especially when you are behind and must work to get back ahead.
Excellent as usual Kevin. I have done this for 21 years or so without knowing the term.
It was combat but not usually with other humans. PM me if you really want to know.
Leave it to the military to codify stuff!

My question or observation would be (from actual real world here , no speculating) is that you don't want to get stuck in the first three of the loop and you don't want to get dead either. And it takes quite a bit of "training" so the first three become automatic or "second nature".
Or do we accept death pass Go and collect $200. The people who have done this , it seems have skipped 1,2,3 and a lot of times are quite successful at 4.
But there is also a lot of new graves that were never acknowledged for jumping directly to 4
There are what would seem to be "naturals" in this world at first glance, but upon scrutiny reveals a lot relative hard work
Thanks. I'm going to train now to try and reveal what is on the inside
Greg

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:26 AM   #1915
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

A lot of bad mouthing of shomen uchi. . .

I think that a lack of understanding of shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, both on the raise and cut, greatly contribute to the difficulty that so many aikidoists seem to encounter in fielding strikes of all kinds.

In fact, I think that one could safely call shomen uchi the most basic movement of the hands in aikido.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:50 AM   #1916
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Greg, thanks.

Agreed. We want to get to 4 or ACT as quick as we can. Training, in theory is what will get us there with the appropriate response, hopefully.

Tony Blauer spend a lot of time on the startle/flinch reflex, which is a natural reaction to a unknown assault. Tony tries to embrace this natural response and turn it into something positive. That is when u are hit or receive force, you don't process it, you respond instinctively.

I use the hot stove analogy, when we touch it we go ouch and pull away. We act without orienting or deciding it just happens. In my combatives class, I tell the guys that I am going to teach you essentially to do the opposite which is to push into the stove ( go forward) and not pull away.

So, I spend a lot of time on developing macro reflexes in empty handed work of forming frames and driving into the fight as a initial instinct. This ACT phase hopefully get you to disrupt your opponents ACT phase and then allows you to start doing what you do to get ahead of the loop.

Yes, so I think as you state, you accept death and pass go, if you get that far. You really don't have a choice.

My statement about a 90 year old woman beating up Anderson Sliva is kinda tongue in cheek, but in theory, yes. If she gets the jump. Say he is on a park bench reading the paper, she sneaks up hits him with a bat and down he goes. He never had time to ACT, nor the other three phases. Such
It is with circus ponies, but I think we need to put things in perspective on the spectrum. Of course if he does recover and can act my bet is based on his skill level that he will most likely ACT and get ahead of her and end the fight.

The point is, that it is not always about the level of skill someone has. As you state, audacity, speed, surprise, and overwhelming force matter a lot. Street thugs may have very little actual skill, comparable to you and me and even Ueshiba in his day. But they do understand OODA and how to apply basic tactics to win. So while techincial skills are important, I believe in reality they are relegated to a lower priority in reality if fighting.

So why do anything at all? Well it comes down to fight management and being able to recover once you have the chance. Given all else equal, we need skills to exploit what SMALL opportunities we have. I don't know about u but I want to have every chance I can at succeeding.

Also on the spectrum of knowledge of OO phases, it is not always about the ambush. I'd say most of the situations I have been involved in, I had much knowledge about what I was entering and had the ON switch up. Having my Jiu Jitsu knowledge (JJ includes Aikido) put me in a situation in which I could disrupt the OO phase of my potential adversary to close down the gaps and keep him from ACTing. Most of these situation never evolved and I'll never know what might of transpired if anything, but I like to believe that I have avoided a lot of trouble.

It is a complex dance really I think.

I don't subscribe to the 20 year thinking. I can teach someone to win fights or at a least understand what it takes to win a fight in a matter of a few weeks. If you can understand OODA then you can understand the basics on how to ACT and win a fight.

Now size, condition, and age are a couple of factors that can enter into the mix for sure. So it is also a loaded proposition! But go back to the 90 year old lady.

So, we can practice JJ to level out some of those things to gain skills over the long haul. If nothing else recognize the limits of our abilities and understand the risk we expose ourselves to, which is just as important. If we can minimize our exposure, then we are ACTing before something occurs.

I spend a lot of time in Africa these days. One thing that has come apparent it the risk
Are always there. I have to insert myself into the risk, I have no choice to do my job. ( by the way, I carry no weapon). However, I've come to understand that I can't control my exposure, but I simply need to keep the bad guys on the negative side of the cost/benefit ratio. In other words, to out run the bear, you don't have to be the fastest person, just faster than the slowest guy. Hence, I simply need to make it not worth the bad guys while to mug me. It could be crossing the street, staying in crowds, unpredictable behavior, etc. Just staying on the right side of the equation is all that matters.

So, I think that budo is very important if we take the time to understand all the levels and variables that go into our training. Some stuff will take like 20 years, other stuff, we can learn in the first couple of days of training. Like I said, we can teach someone to fight in weeks, not years.

The problem is new students coming out of a institutional learning model of superficial rote learning modalities, want to look at the technical curriculum of Aikido, TKD, BJJ or any number of martial arts and simply apply the formula without regard to the dynamics of a fight. Aikido the way it is trained is very subject to this dissonance. Sure kote gaeshi will work in a fight, so will iriminage. We can't though ignore the importance of OODA, as you state the ACT phase. We certainly cannot apply the timeline or continuum of how we perform those things in the dojo and expect things to go well.

Keep in mind that our primary goal in Aikido is not about teaching people how to fight. We have range of body types and ages etc. In military organizations you don't have this. In fedual japan you were not teaching 50 year old accountants to beat Tito Ortiz. No you had young, conditioned warriors that were going to fight the same. So all else equal, jiu jitsi was very important when you want that edge in combat.

In our dojos today, the same cost/benefit ratio does not apply. As a 50 year old accountant, we really have very little reason to master jiu jitsu or Aikido for the original intended purposes. But if it calls to use, we like it, then there are some real benefits to be gained from training. I think we can all recognize these otherwise we would not be doing it.

So to close, I think once you can understand OODA and all that, you can begin to see how budo and Aikido fit into the equation and you can begin to see that simple questions like "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" are not so easy to answer as yes/no.

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Old 03-17-2012, 07:42 AM   #1917
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

,"I don't subscribe to the 20 year thinking. I can teach someone to win fights or at a least understand what it takes to win a fight in a matter of a few weeks. If you can understand OODA then you can understand the basics on how to ACT and win a fight.""

Thanx
But also I didn't say it took me twenty years to do and it was not people I was always fighting with.
And the better teacher/mentor you had the quicker the awareness of the awareness you needed was developed. As a matter of fact these paradigms can be built into any sport, endeavor, what have you.
The closer you are to life and death the faster it should happen, big money can be supplanted as a motivator(I.e.sports) in the athletes mind anyway..
I don't subscribe to the 20 year model either because sh@t happens and usually to me probabably because of a malfunction of O and O. You survive , maybe luck or you make your own luck
Good, no. Great cutting to the core of the matter.
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:39 AM   #1918
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sorry, wasn't implying that you said it takes 20 years. Just that it commonly it is stated that it takes 20 years.

Thanks again!

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Old 07-03-2012, 09:42 PM   #1919
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I have trained in Aikido for a year now and I soon learned that static gripping during training is great for Ki Cultivation. Many people I know have critisized the Aikido mainly because of the way people train.

My instructor has done Aikido for over 30 years and he is living proof that channelling Ki to perform various techniques will work without resorting to physical strength.

If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are. I admit that I still need repetitive practice to eventually get a good grasp of Ki and this will take years and I plan to stick with it.

Finally my instructor keeps mentioning that you must be in the form of relaxation to effectively channel out Ki. I enjoy this martial art more than Karate and kickboxing as these two arts are very forceful from experience. Not saying that these arts have no merit, they are just not my thing.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:50 PM   #1920
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are.
There are positions that support the use of large muscle groups and positions that don't. The aim of the game is to be in a position to leverage the greatest portion of your strength while, ideally, placing him in a position where he can't do the same.

Or so the answer to that would go.

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Old 07-03-2012, 10:41 PM   #1921
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
There are positions that support the use of large muscle groups and positions that don't. The aim of the game is to be in a position to leverage the greatest portion of your strength while, ideally, placing him in a position where he can't do the same.

Or so the answer to that would go.

yeah but the only problem is that the moment your opponent (or partner) feels your strength he/she will resist. If you are relaxed and utilise Ki it will be harder for them to stop you. This can be evidenced through static gripping such as katatetori where the moment you use strength anyone strong enough can stop you by resisting.This tends to happen when you mind and body are together, which is not how me and the other students are trained
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:52 PM   #1922
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Oh thread, how I've missed you!
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:24 AM   #1923
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Me too...my favorite.

Good point on proprioception .Matthew....if you can reduce it, then you can do things without triggering a response.

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Old 07-04-2012, 12:26 PM   #1924
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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yeah but the only problem is that the moment your opponent (or partner) feels your strength he/she will resist. If you are relaxed and utilise Ki it will be harder for them to stop you. This can be evidenced through static gripping such as katatetori where the moment you use strength anyone strong enough can stop you by resisting.This tends to happen when you mind and body are together, which is not how me and the other students are trained
There is something to be said for not just grabbing someone and trying to man-handle them around. And in not tensing up everything at once and making yourself unable to move. However, people don't feel strength, they feel force. It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.

It's like if someone grabs your wrist to stop you moving it forwards - if you hold your wrist straight and just try and push into them it's very hard - if you rotate your wrist it's fairly easy. If they rotate their wrist the other way it's hard again. Nothing to do with ki, just different muscle groups with different degrees of tension being put through them.

I suspect a lot of the problem people have with the idea of strength is that they think it should feel like they're putting a lot of effort in. And of course to feel like you're putting a lot of effort in, frequently, you have to tension opposing muscle groups to get enough resistance to push against - which results in less overall force being generated in the desired direction.

Last edited by Benjamin Green : 07-04-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:52 PM   #1925
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
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Oh thread, how I've missed you!
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