Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-29-2012, 10:16 PM   #1
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
It happens to the best of them

I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2012, 11:52 PM   #2
Settokuryoku
Dojo: Aikikai affliated club
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are. In context, look at MMA. It is ludicrous to think there isn't going to be strikes exchanged, opportunities missed, miscalculations or other errors made by both winner and loser. A truth that says errors will be made no matter who it is, when engaged in martial arts. The "old man" falling down, much less at his age still performing technique well, let's us see what his is doing is real. He is real. His demonstration is real. It's our exceptions too high when we don't all margin of error, demanding the impossible standard of perfections. Here O'Sensei is publicly demonstrating. He isn't instructing a class. Two different venues. Errors will be made by both sides of the conflict, the winner is the one who makes the less significant and minimal errors. Mr. Harden pointing out O'Sensei's stumble, something evidently over-looked, indicates the wonderful no matter how good you are the fact remains everyone makes mistake. How quickly, often and how you recover from mistake is key. In a fighting situation add on how you exploit your opponent's mistakes. I have always enjoyed the work of Mr. Lowery, and he is spot on here IMHO. Martial artists, fighters and teachers are human, we are fallible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 12:24 AM   #3
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Lukas Stark wrote: View Post
I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are.
There's an old Japanese saying, "Saru mo ki kara ochiru": "even monkeys fall from trees."

I think it's a general saying, along with "Inu mo arukeba bo ni ataru," meaning "even dogs run into sticks when they go out walking."

So monkeys are great climbers but they still fall from trees and dogs are masters of the natural environment, but they still run right into a stick from time to time.

That certainly was a great video of aikido, though. That's real believable power. That guy led bunches of really powerful people and they all remembered him as a special master.

Not only does he stumble once in this clip, but I noticed that he was slightly struck on the back when he did the "aiki drop" in front of the shomen uchi attack. And I noticed for the first time a few instances where he seems to be very conscious of how he appears before the camera. That's interesting.

But I also notice many places where he shows that old daito ryu thing that we never see in modern aikido: the zanshin moment directly after a throw, with one arm up and one arm down, a posture assumed separately after the throw and not resulting from the action of the throw. And it's not in preparation to follow up with a downward strike, either, because the opponent has been thrown ten feet away.

We might say that it is preparation for the next technique, and I see now that it is just that. But in modern aikido, we don't see that kamae in nage very much as the attack comes, do we? How is that posture a preparation for the next technique? It was clearly a practice for O Sensei. Why is it not for the generations that followed?

If we see that posture at all in these later days, it's usually a set-up for a downward strike and it's usually done only with the upper arm and only for an instant. It seems that O Sensei's use of that posture is generally understood to "show the potential" of following up with a downward strike, so to show "understanding," people do the downward strike.

Even Morihei does it more quickly at some times and holds it longer at others, but it is clearly the raising of the arm that is important and the intent is not for striking down. So what is he doing with that raised arm?

And with that in mind, what is happening with the down arm? What is he dong that for? What are his feet doing? What are his head and eyes doing? How is he breathing? You can see all that in many moments when he assumes that posture in this clip. Very interesting and well worth repeated watching.

Best wishes.

{{And thanks, Dan!}}

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-30-2012 at 12:28 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 08:13 AM   #4
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 109
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Having trained with Dave Lowry off and on for over 30 years in several arts I can tell you that he often tells a student who makes a mistake that no one is perfect and mistakes are part of the learning process.
In fact Lowry is Chairman of the Japanese Festival here in St.Louis. He was demonstraiting Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo with a Menkyo Kaiden holder Phil Relnick Last September. The jo came loose from Relnicks Sensei's left hand. Relnick Sensei laughed and commented about St.Louis outdoor demo's and being coated with sun screen that makes the jo try to go it's own way.
Even the Master is human.
When Lowry was teaching at the Shobukan Aikido Dojo he was showing us the next technique and in the middle of it he stops and smiles and says "but don't do it like this". He then adjusted his hand and said " this is the way it should be done". We all laughed at that one.
Even Dave Lowry is not perfect. Today he only teaches Jodo and sword but gives seminars in other budo and Koryu.
I miss those old days..

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #5
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

I think he tripped on his Hakama.

David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,940
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

When I was learning to sew, I was never as relieved as when my incredibly stylish and masterful teacher came in one morning and ruefully admitted she'd sewn a sleeve in inside out and backwards the evening before...

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 01:31 PM   #7
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think he tripped on his Hakama.
That's what I thought.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.
"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.
How so?

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #8
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

.
Graham

Can you explain the above for a simple basics guy such as me

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 01:59 PM   #9
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's what I thought.

"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

How so?

Best.

David
Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 07:45 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,940
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.
Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.
My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2012, 10:06 PM   #11
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.
Interesting. I have never told or mentioned that anyone else should do it. In fact I never even put any significance on myself doing it. Only David mentioning it like he did above made me wonder if I had seen anyone else do it.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:07 AM   #12
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.
Graham moving
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!!
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-01-2012 at 09:22 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:28 AM   #13
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

In accordance with Juns request; it might be easier to not to talk about the people behind the posts if you stopped referring to videos of yourself and comparing your movements to the discussions we are having about Ueshiba.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 10:38 AM   #14
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham moving
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!!
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan
The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 11:15 AM   #15
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.
I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 11:29 AM   #16
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan
Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 10:12 PM   #17
Stephen Nichol
Dojo: Aikilife, Canberra
Location: Canberra, ACT
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 90
Australia
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

... I tripped on a Hakama once...

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though...

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 11:17 PM   #18
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Stephen Nichol wrote: View Post
... I tripped on a Hakama once...
Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though...
+1
There is no tighter trap....then self deceit. Nothing more final than self-delusion. It cannot be helped.
Arguing as the true vision, they are ones who do not see, and will never know.

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:02 AM   #19
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,794
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Stephen Nichol wrote: View Post
... I tripped on a Hakama once...

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though...

i got you beat. i had tripped on my own two feet many times; thus, i had elevated myself the "best" status.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:10 AM   #20
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 109
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quite a few times both in and out of the dojo I have tripped for no reason at all. Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:26 AM   #21
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!


Peace.G.
Tohei used to hop and skip all the time.....

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:27 AM   #22
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,794
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?
nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:28 AM   #23
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan
Sure you have; it was just hidden in plain sight

greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 08:05 AM   #24
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 109
United_States
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote from Phi Truong:
"nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other"

.....HAAAAAAAAAAA!! Good one.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 09:23 AM   #25
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: It happens to the best of them

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I feel so embarrassed: not just for the guy taking 'ukemi', but for the people who are there watching; what a complete waste of time for everybody, to indulge one man's self-delusion.
There is no aikido here, whatsoever - just indulgence of pretence.

Try putting in the hard work - rather than just prancing about, and claiming you have the ability which others have actually had to earn.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:39 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate