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Old 06-29-2012, 09:40 AM   #376
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:40 AM   #377
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. There were plenty of men with Ki, aiki, and skill who were of an aggressive mind.
3. Plenty who were inept physically who were of a refined mind and spirit.
Why is it always men who have this quality?

Seems like the word "men" keeps popping up in these discussions. A revealing slip of the tongue, perhaps?
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:44 AM   #378
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Why is it always men who have this quality?

Seems like the word "men" keeps popping up in these discussions. A revealing slip of the tongue, perhaps?
Revealing just what?
That most of the warriors were men?
That men are more agressive by nature? And.....
Or are you looking for something in me that isn't there due to your own prejudices? Hmmm... ;-)
Seriously, I was talking past tense. Historically men were the ones known for these skills and the ones we most often follow.
No worries with me. Today, many times the people who get this quicker are women. And I continue to point it out in open rooms around the world. I also teach many women and couples....
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-29-2012 at 09:49 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:47 AM   #379
David Orange
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's
As I learned it, the environment of practice has to be very arduous and challenging, based on serious attack and highly effective response with aikido technique. Equally important, this must be done with the same state of mind as if we are sitting in zazen, motionless. The two are inseparable. Serious practice, mediated by calm, centered mind. With those two elements, continued training affects the spirit. Other approaches try to begin with the spirit, but ignore the body and completely lose the mind, as Graham advocates.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:51 AM   #380
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Revealing just what?
Or you are looking for something that isn't there due to your own fears or prejudices?
Seriously, I was talking past tense. Historically men were the ones known for these skills and the ones we most often follow.
No worries with me. Today, the people who get this quicker are women. And I continue to point it out in open rooms around the world. I also teach many women and couples....
Dan
That's fine, but today, now, speaking of people in the present tense, the word "men" keeps coming up in your discussions. It's not a terribly common usage for you, but it does show up, and given that it's a very rare usage today unless the speaker specifically and exclusively refers to male human beings (the word "people" is far more likely to be used by contemporary speakers), I find it jarring and attention-grabbing when I see it. I can't think of a single other poster on aikiweb who I've ever seen use "men" in this sense.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #381
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan
I agree, totally.

 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #382
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why not shoot for both?
Were Ueshiba to have NOT been martially effective...none of us would be here, none of the spiritual crowd would have followed him and none of these discussions would be going on.

Dan
Dear Dan,
Considering I have spent over forty years of my life I sometimes wish I had pursued other activities.Aikido has given me highs but also lows. Not that I blame Ueshiba for this state of affairs.I should have done more than just aikido. Still Grandma Moses took up art at an advanced age.Maybe not too late?Cheers, Joe
 
Old 06-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #383
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The two are inseparable. Serious practice, mediated by calm, centered mind. With those two elements, continued training affects the spirit.
Best to you.

David
In the midst of a raging fire
a cool wind blows...


Quote:
Other approaches try to begin with the spirit, but ignore the body and completely lose the mind, as _______ people advocates.
That won't work and the results are evidence to that fact.
As I stated earlier those practicing the correct path will simply own those following that model...on contact...thus they avoid us.
They will NEVER step on a mat with us to prove that their theory and ideas work. And that is all there is to it. I suspect that inside...they know it won't work themselves.
Dan
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:00 AM   #384
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dan,
Considering I have spent over forty years of my life I sometimes wish I had pursued other activities.Aikido has given me highs but also lows. Not that I blame Ueshiba for this state of affairs.I should have done more than just aikido. Still Grandma Moses took up art at an advanced age.Maybe not too late?Cheers, Joe
Well, Bill Gleason has got you beat by four years and at 67 he switched to training in....Aiki-do instead of Aikido™ His students...around the world... are commenting and writing me about his change in feel.

Interview Bill Gleason
After 12 years under Yamaguchi telling me "Not soft enough!" and 32 years later I thought I had it down. Until I met Dan Harden. The first thing he said to me was "Not soft enough!"
(Yes he told me I could quote him)
Dan
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:06 AM   #385
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That's fine, but today, now, speaking of people in the present tense, the word "men" keeps coming up in your discussions. It's not a terribly common usage for you, but it does show up, and given that it's a very rare usage today unless the speaker specifically and exclusively refers to male human beings (the word "people" is far more likely to be used by contemporary speakers), I find it jarring and attention-grabbing when I see it. I can't think of a single other poster on aikiweb who I've ever seen use "men" in this sense.
Oh good grief, Mary!!
Apparently, I think men should rule the world, women should obey, and we should remove female voting rights!!!

Dan
Fifty shades....darker than Grey!!!
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:38 AM   #386
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh good grief, Mary!!
Apparently, I think men should rule the world, women should obey, and we should remove female voting rights!!!
http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/

You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, Dan. It may be that 99.999999% of the entire planet believes that "men" and "people" are 100% interchangeable. Or, it may be that there are those, like me, who feel that that hasn't been true for decades. Whatever.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:53 AM   #387
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/

You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, Dan. It may be that 99.999999% of the entire planet believes that "men" and "people" are 100% interchangeable. Or, it may be that there are those, like me, who feel that that hasn't been true for decades. Whatever.
I'm just a bystander, but to keep with the topic, are you saying the use of "men" instead of "people" in topic discussion has something to do with spiritual or their aiki application?

Regards,
Ryan
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:55 AM   #388
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If you have read many of my posts then you will see I oft say how it is effectve and martial too.

With that I therefor have demonstrated the fact thousands of times.
Graham, just because you say something is effective doesn't mean you have demonstrated its effectiveness. You have some interesting ideas but I think you are a long way from making your case.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Oneness. Of course it can stop a serious attack. Is that not one of the things Aikido promises?
Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven't seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:36 AM   #389
Tengu859
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

This whole thread reminds me of the Nihon Kendo Kata...when the wrist is presented uchitachi attempts to cut it...there's an opening. IMO, that's what's happening here, lots of openings and lots of cuts. Some just don't see the openings...(I don't all the time either)!!! Anyway I couldn't resist. I'm weak and foolish!!! Thanks. :0)

ChrisW

PS What does this have to do with My spiritual Aikido? Nothing.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #390
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
That's unfortunate if it's a choice between spiritless and mindful or spiritual and mindless... I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive.

I thought we couldn't tell people what they must do?
Unfortunate you read it that way.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:53 AM   #391
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
Graham, just because you say something is effective doesn't mean you have demonstrated its effectiveness. You have some interesting ideas but I think you are a long way from making your case.

Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven't seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave
Just because I say it is does mean I have demonstrated it.

Not interested in scrutiny as the scrutinizers don't know what to scrutin.

However if you would like to learn how to then drop by one day.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #392
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
Yes, this is a promise made by some but I have yet to see it bear fruit. I would love to meet the kind of martial bodhisattva that I've heard speculated about; a person who can stop any aggression with the power of their love. So far I haven't seen anyone who could actually shut down an attack by becoming spiritually one with the attacker. In my experience the concepts of oneness, unity and co-existence don't seem to translate into martial skill, at least not the way you're presenting them.

On the other hand, I would love to be wrong about this. It would justify the time a lot of people have spent in pursuit of their budo enlightenment. Like I said before, I have a lot of respect for you putting your views out there for people to critique. If you're ever willing to put your skills up to scrutiny in practical some way I'll take another look at your philosophy.

Dave
Perhaps the ultimate goal of Budo is to reach a level of lovingness wherein you could influence and control those who would be otherwise uncontrollable. How this would be accomplished, or whether anyone is currently capable of doing it is another question entirely. I've previously discussed Gandhi and his ability to control and manipulate millions through love, inaction, and nonviolence. He and MLK jr. are among the few historical figures who have ever been able to do this on a large scale.

I do think that an enemy can be influenced by love and peace to a lesser extent. But love and peace are not something that should necessarily be done to invoke responses from other people. It is an individual state of being and a personal philosophy that governs one's life from within. If everyone embraced a life of peace there would be no need to utilize it to neutralize an adversary, as nobody would be adversarial towards one another. Love isn't something you can cast over someone to neutralize them when they are mad. It's a personal state of being that has limitless potential once others are able to see it and feel it for themselves.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #393
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.
Very well put.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 12:02 PM   #394
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham, while I might readily accept that you have 'let go' of your mind, I'm not so sure you've ever grasped the essence of spirituality.

In the Chinese concept, mind is necessary to direct the spirit: "mind leads the ki, ki leads the body."

You attribute many negative qualities to mind, and only the rosiest things to spirit. But it is entirely possible to have a very bad spirit and, thus, to have very bad "spirituality".

Ignorance and distortion are two of the characteristics that turn a "spiritual leader" into a "cult leader", resulting in groups like Aum Shin Ri Kyo led by Shoko Asahara and The People's Temple, led by Jim Jones, both of which attempted mass murder in the name of their "spirituality," which they believed was far greater than mental understanding could approach.

The relation between mind and spirit, like that between body and mind or body and spirit, is a prime concern in the Chinese tradition and that carried through to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. It is a serious mistake to posit mind as somehow negative and spirit as only positive. It is equally mistaken to think that development of technical precision somehow undermines spiritual development. In the asian view, technical polishing is the vehicle for spiritual development and the mind is the "driver" of that vehicle. You have every right to see it differently, but that is also where your path diverges from real aikido and where you should stop preaching about aikido because you are seriously mistaken about it.

Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart come the words of the mouth." And he was referring to lying and envy, hate and such. These come from the heart (spirit)--not from the mind. In the Chinese tradition, the mind is the necessary master that prevents the wild passions of the heart and spirit from consuming one's life and destroying others' lives. Applying the mind to perfection of physical technique is a prime tool for affecting one's spirit, in this view. Of course, all traditional wisdom has to come in through the mind and must be understood by the mind to be fully understood.

So spirit can be bad--even evil--and mind can be the discerning master that chooses which spiritual tendencies to feed and which to starve.

What I perceive in you is a burning need to establish yourself mentally and intellectually as a master of aikido among masters of aikido. What belies that status is your refusal to adhere to the traditional standard of "put up or shut up," which is the same as "put your money where your mouth is" or "prove what you claim." Your insistence on "mentally" presenting yourself with words (often very judgmental) where you physically will not present indicates a spirit that is badly mislead and unbalanced.

If it were not so, your actions would all be spiritual. You would not be reaching for our mental attention with so many words. All your posts are matters of mind and they reflect a spirit that cries out for correction. Dan, Marc, myself and many others try to give you what you are asking for, but you continually laugh it off and continue asking for more. We don't keep contradicting you for our own pleasure, but because you keep crying out for correction.

Good luck.

David
David. I see your reasoning based on your belief and view. Good. I don't agree though.

Peace. G.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 01:05 PM   #395
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
Perhaps the ultimate goal of Budo is to reach a level of lovingness wherein you could influence and control those who would be otherwise uncontrollable.
Well, I've done similar things a number of times when people wanted to attack me, but then changed their minds. It happened, however, because I was willing and able to kill them. They subconsciously realized this and gave up their aggression.

Was that spiritual?

No, but the fact that I didn't proactively then attack them was an expression of my spirituality. If they attack me, they're going to get whatever it takes to stop them. If they don't attack me, I have no desire to attack them.

But just to stop someone with "lovingness" only....??? With no physical ability behind it?

We can look at the viral video of the "ki master" facing the kick boxer to get a good idea of where that's bound to go!



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #396
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
... the fact that I didn't proactively then attack them was an expression of my spirituality.
I guess I'd have to agree with you on the grounds that I can't possibly quantify or qualify what an "expression" of spirituality consists of, particularly if that's unique to you. However, it sounds as though you not initiating attacks is simply your preferred style of combat. I'm the same way. But it's not because I'm afraid to hurt someone, it's because I don't want to get in legal trouble by starting a brawl. Is that really an expression of love? I don't think so.

Overcoming an enemy with love would look different than that. It's not a reluctance to fight backed by implied violence. It's wholly separate from anything violent or confrontational. Without getting too touchy feely by reciting a bunch of spiritual gobbledygook, I'll finish by saying that love and peace come from within. You can't expect to influence your enemy and change him unless you are able to draw this out from within him.
 
Old 06-29-2012, 02:52 PM   #397
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Hi folks,

Let me simply repeat mysel:
Quote:
The tone I'm seeing in this thread is becoming rather personal and disrespectful.

Please keep your posts directed at moving the discussion along in a positive manner. Please direct your efforts into discussing the topic rather than the people behind the topic.
Really, folks -- you all know better than to engage in the manner that I'e seen you engaging in this thread. And, you know who you are. So, I'm going to write in all caps to, hopefully, communicate the frustration I feel when I encounter the kinds of interactions I see in this thread.

FOLKS, LEARN TO MODERATE YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR FIRST AND FOREMOST. SO MANY TIMES, I SEE PEOPLE WHOM I KNOW TO BE FINE, UPSTANDING HUMAN BEINGS IN "REAL LIFE" SOMEHOW FEEL COMPELLED TO BE OTHERWISE HERE ON AIKIWEB. PERHAPS DUE TO THIS BEING "ON THE INTERNET," A DIFFERENT SET OF BEHAVIOR HERE SEEMS ACCEPTABLE FOR YOU. STOP IT -- JUST STOP IT.

BE RESPECTFUL. BE CIVIL. CONTRIBUTE POSITIVELY TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.

THAT'S ALL I'M ASKING FOR, FOLKS.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 06-29-2012, 03:04 PM   #398
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

PS: Thread closed due to its becoming a "train wreck."

-- Jun

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