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Old 06-26-2012, 09:22 PM   #76
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I don't see much hostility in this thread. The individual concerned may be flawed and may have all sorts of problems, I will grant you that. His conduct however, as described, was disruptive, rude, and perhaps even dangerous. Why he behaves as he does is not of much concern, how he behaves is and most folks here made what I still consider to be reasonable suggestions for solving the problem. I understand Charlie Manson, but I'm sure not gonna have him lead our local Boy Scout troop. If that constitutes hostility, then I must admit to that particular flaw of character.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:46 PM   #77
chubbycubbysmash
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Ack, should have been clearer-I was referring to some of the responses that I feel crossed into attacking the OP personally, and that made me sort of sad (including lying, exaggeration, inability as a teacher etc. along with the actual reasonable solutions. The posters probably didn't mean it that way but that's how it came across to me). I know having to hear about this makes people mad, especially when the guy does seem not exactly right in the head and it seems like no one is doing anything, but speaking so... I don't know, aggressively? to the OP...

I thought the OP was really polite in how he was speaking and addressing concerns and doing his best under the current circumstances. I know the internet doesn't have tones so it's difficult to really get a grasp on an accurate feel of what other people are trying to get across.

I'm all for booting the guy out, one way or another, but it's not always as easy as opening the door and physically tossing him to the streets. (Maybe it is for some people, I don't know, but obviously not for OP and his dojo. I don't think it would be easy for me either, honestly, if I was in his position.)

Anyway, sorry for the confusion. I was just really taken aback by some posts. I shall now zip up my big mouth!

Much luck to the OP in finding a good way to effectively deal with this guy.

I'm not brave or smart or particularly generous, but I'll take my values and live by them--and that is my standard measurement of strength.

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Old 06-26-2012, 09:52 PM   #78
Janet Rosen
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I don't see anything I consider hostile or attacking in this thread. YMMV.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #79
James Sawers
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Marc:

You are quite correct in what you say. Didn't mean this to come across as a diagnosis, just an example of how it is a waste of time to use reason and logic with some people.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:12 AM   #80
Marc Abrams
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
Marc:

You are quite correct in what you say. Didn't mean this to come across as a diagnosis, just an example of how it is a waste of time to use reason and logic with some people.
James:

I think that this poster is trying and struggling with this issue. I can think back to when I first started teaching (at my teacher's direction as opposed to my preferred choice...) and all of the issues that I struggled with. Instead of giving me directions to some of the issues that arose, my teacher would remind me that my over-riding responsibility was toward protecting the class. This forced me to think through how my choices would not just effect one person, but the entire class. Not many easy answers exist when you are in charge....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:04 PM   #81
James Sawers
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

So true........I forget sometimes.........

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:37 PM   #82
"Trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

To update a bit, the guy in question has not been back since my last class. In my last class I purposely structured my class to disable the behavior he was exhibiting. If he was correcting his partner, I'd take his partner from him, because in my mind if he's correcting his partner then his partner needs to be tutored, and I told him as much. I purposely did ukemi drills when I saw he wasn't take ukemi and even encouraging his partner to not take the type of ukemi we take at our school. So obviously the class needed a refresher on ukemi. When he interrupted me while I was demonstrating I cut him off quickly and said "We can discuss it after class or at open mat" or I specifically explained to the class in detail why what the guy was saying wouldn't work for what we were doing.
I was respectful and firm. And he left visibly irritated because he couldn't do what he wanted to do. Hasn't returned to any class since.
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:15 PM   #83
Janet Rosen
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

That sounds good!

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:36 PM   #84
Mario Tobias
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
When he interrupted me while I was demonstrating I cut him off quickly and said "We can discuss it after class or at open mat" or I specifically explained to the class in detail why what the guy was saying wouldn't work for what we were doing.
I was respectful and firm.
Whoever should be teaching in front of the class shouldn't be interrupted or challenged. This is part of the etiquette in an aikido dojo. Even some dojos are very strict in talking during practice. talking during practice is acceptable but interrupting whoever is in front of class teaching is unacceptable behaviour.
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:08 PM   #85
Basia Halliop
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Nice update!
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:40 PM   #86
lbb
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

To OP, congrats on refusing to let him play his game by his rules, and for getting your class back on track for the benefit of your students (as opposed to this individual, who clearly was never there to learn anything, and thus can't be called a student).
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:28 PM   #87
"Trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Thank to everyone for their input in this issue. If he does return I know that at least in my classes things will be more controlled and positive.
All the best!
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:28 AM   #88
sakumeikan
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Thank to everyone for their input in this issue. If he does return I know that at least in my classes things will be more controlled and positive.
All the best!
Dear Mr X,
Can I take it this is the last we read about this subject?Cheers, Joe
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:56 PM   #89
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Well I gotta say from the cheap seats its been a nice quest narrative. Far from grinding it out in a dojo alone, the OP with the aikiweb community pitching in with a variety of opinions and strategies (to match varying personality types) has resolved a troubling issue. Its a cautionary tale and success story all in one with the values of being true to oneself, yet having to fulfil the role responsibility of instructor and care for a class/dojo being laid out and dealt with successfully in a rational discourse.

Bravo !

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:10 PM   #90
hughrbeyer
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Joe: Sorry, mate.

To the OP: It is a success story, and I don't want to denigrate it. I might well have ended up with a very similar solution.

But I do want to point out that you ended up warping the structure of the entire class to deal with this one person. You were able to do it in a way that still provided value to the class (yay you), but that's what you did.

Is that the best way to deal with such a situation? Might you need to confront such a student more directly? Would it be better for the class? Would it be better for the disruptive student in the long run?

Moot points, now, thankfully. But maybe worth planting in the back-brain and see what they generate.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:28 PM   #91
"trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Joe: Sorry, mate.

To the OP: It is a success story, and I don't want to denigrate it. I might well have ended up with a very similar solution.

But I do want to point out that you ended up warping the structure of the entire class to deal with this one person. You were able to do it in a way that still provided value to the class (yay you), but that's what you did.

Is that the best way to deal with such a situation? Might you need to confront such a student more directly? Would it be better for the class? Would it be better for the disruptive student in the long run?

Moot points, now, thankfully. But maybe worth planting in the back-brain and see what they generate.
I don't disagree that being more direct would be more efficient, quicker, and a lot less painful. However, as I've explained, a direct confrontation was forbidden by our head instructor. If a direct confrontation occurred I was not permitted to be the one taking the initiative; that privilege (or lack there of) belongs to the head instructor or dojo-cho alone. It was made clear to me that that was not my place, and my direction was that I was to keep control of my class.
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:41 PM   #92
Michael Hackett
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Dear Polite,

The target keeps changing. In Post 91 you NOW say that a direct confrontation was prohibited by your Dojo Cho. You never mentioned that before, but said the decision to allow him to continue training in your school was that of the Dojo Cho. You did say that he gave each of you instructions to control your class and you did not mention any restrictions in that regard. That changes the tenor of the situation and I would have made other suggestions to you, and perhaps others would have as well. How can you teach a class safely without the authority to confront a student who is doing something dangerous for example? Did you truly mean that any direct confrontation with this student was expressly prohibited, or were you just speaking in a shorthand way? I thought this had been put to bed. If I have misunderstood you, please call me on it.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:26 PM   #93
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Dear Polite,

The target keeps changing. In Post 91 you NOW say that a direct confrontation was prohibited by your Dojo Cho. You never mentioned that before, but said the decision to allow him to continue training in your school was that of the Dojo Cho. You did say that he gave each of you instructions to control your class and you did not mention any restrictions in that regard. That changes the tenor of the situation and I would have made other suggestions to you, and perhaps others would have as well. How can you teach a class safely without the authority to confront a student who is doing something dangerous for example? Did you truly mean that any direct confrontation with this student was expressly prohibited, or were you just speaking in a shorthand way? I thought this had been put to bed. If I have misunderstood you, please call me on it.
Ease up a bit! I got the distinct impression from his early posts that his dojo-cho was not going to let him go as far as he wanted.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:48 PM   #94
"trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

To quote myself exactly from page 1.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I agree with you 100%. If it was my school, I would of already had that conversation with him. Not to be mean to him or anything, just it isn't helpful to the junior students or class. I've done my best to control my own classes, while trying to respect that the Sensei wants there to be no visible discourse between anyone in front of junior students. :/
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #95
"Trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Also page 1

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
We have been the ones allowing this to continue, for the sake of keeping peace with the guy and not causing a scene we've tried behind the scene methods of dealing with him. We've yet to go as far as give him ultimatums however. Sensei ask we not give ultimatums. Sensei has simply said to all of us "You need to keep control of your class, and I expect you to."
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:53 PM   #96
"Trying to be polite"
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

page 2

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I agree with what you are saying. This is not my school. I can limit his access my own classes, but have no control on whether or not the school will continue to accept his patronage or not.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:36 PM   #97
Michael Hackett
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Dear Robin and Polite,

It isn't my intention to beat on Polite at all. The three posts that Polite highlights in 94, 95, and 96 do not speak to direct confrontation in my mind. One could certainly confront the student directly outside of the view and hearing of the other students in an immediate fashion (Number 94). I suppose telling the student directly that his conduct would have to change immediately or he would have to leave the class could be considered an ultimatum (Number 95), but in the spirit of the direction given by the Dojo Cho to control the class, it would just be a manner of effective control in my view. I don't quibble with Polite's comment in Number 96 and that doesn't speak to my concern at all.

I think Polite did the best he could do with the conditions he outlined earlier. I am just saying that he changed the context of the situation with his later post and informed us of a very specific rule that he only alluded to earlier. That's why I asked the still unanswered question. I don't have an axe to grind with Polite at all - I'm just glad I'm not in his position.

Given the specific instruction that I was prohibited from directly confronting the student, I would have asked for clarification. If I was then told that any direct confrontation was unacceptable, I would explain that I was unwilling to teach a class where I had complete responsibility without the same level of authority. That is far different than my earlier suggestion and based entirely on those two pesky little words. I obviously misunderstood the situation, and please don't misunderstand me - I'm not beating on Polite at all and wish him a full class of decent students who want to learn from him.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:40 AM   #98
John Ianus
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

I saw an almost identical person, and my teacher was having the same troubles.
But it was up to the head teacher and the person sort of behaved when the head teacher was there. Also the instructor didn't want to make the person leave because maybe they would change. Also he maybe felt it was his shortcoming not to earn this man's respect. But recently that troublesome person left of his own accord.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:50 AM   #99
SteveTrinkle
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

more ukemi needed

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Old 11-13-2012, 10:57 PM   #100
JLRonin
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Re: What do you do when a student is acting rudely in your class.

Counceling always works.
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