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Old 06-27-2012, 11:06 AM   #276
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Graham et al,
This goes back up the thread a bit, but Tohei talks about his war experiences in the interview "The key to Ki" in the November 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine.
Regards,
Keith
Hi Keith.
Yes, that's the one I quote. Jason owes an apology but........

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 11:21 AM   #277
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Oh so many philosophical puzzles to ponder...

Without a road, what would the chicken cross? Does the road simply embody or reify the chicken's inherent need to traverse?

If you cross a road with a chicken, what do you get? If you cross a state line with a chicken, is it interstate commerce or a federal offense?

If the chicken crosses the road, is the road entitled to take revenge? Is that the aiki response?

Does this chicken make my butt look big?
If you cross th road with a chicken in San Diego, CA, watch out. There is an ordinance called "losing your load". It was originally written to cite people moving chickens who didn't care where all the feathers flew and drifted about.

Arghhh

Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #278
sakumeikan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Dear Janet,
If you cross a road with a chicken , you may get funny looks.Try explaining how you and the chicken are just close friends.Same applies if you cross the state line, I would imagine that as long as the chicken was of the age of consent and consensual, the boys in blue would not send you to the slammer.Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 11:49 AM   #279
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

SPIRIT.....There you are, something many of you haven't much reality on. Not surprising as you have been brought up not to.

Then there is SPIRITUAL. Once again I don't see many have too much reality on that either. Again, not surprising. Same reason.

Lots of confusions, lots of denials, lots of double standards, not surprising for the same reason.

We have on the one hand it being pointed out that a disembodied spirit is a ghost and yet that same person not relating that to himself for that would make him a spirit with a body.

Then we have the idea that it cannot be defined or separated as real of itself. Well of course it can and it can be demonstrated to be. Mental machinations trying to work out something based on body and mind thinking thus outside of many's modus operandi of reason.

Yet we have a man who created Aikido who emphasized it. Hence all the confusions on what he meant.

Then we come to Spiritual. Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it. Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.

That area called spiritual contains more than just spirit and includes love, Ki, compassion, humility, stillness, life, soul, holiness, the void, centre of centre, spiritual space, yin and yang, harmony, etc. Universal truths. From which body and mind are created, manifested.

Those aware of this to various degrees tend to follow or get interested in spiritual things for they intuitively know it's to do with them, their true self, true nature and god and the universe.

Those unaware of this tend to deny it and thus we have the spiritual sayings like 'you can run but you are merely running away from your true self by so doing.

So we have an art built on spiritual principles, a lesson. A lesson in discovering your true self, a path.

Bit by bit peeling the onion, might make your eyes water. Those layers are mere clothing which are body and mind. Thus to get more 'power' people think of more muscle, more physical cause, more bombs, more tanks. More away from the truth. Nice clothes though.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:00 PM   #280
phitruong
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet,
If you cross a road with a chicken , you may get funny looks.Try explaining how you and the chicken are just close friends.Same applies if you cross the state line, I would imagine that as long as the chicken was of the age of consent and consensual, the boys in blue would not send you to the slammer.Cheers, Joe.
what if you cross the road with a chicken and a duck? would that be ducking chicken or peeking duck?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:01 PM   #281
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it. Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference. Peace.G.
Almost sounds like Intent.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:02 PM   #282
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.
No, no greek paths based on intellect. No gnostic paths based on physical and mental. All paths are based on spiritual.

Mystics or gnostics may call it esoteric knowledge. All religious mysticism is based on esoteric, spiritual truths. Different form of 'knowledge', not the intellectual logic form based on physical.

Peace.G..
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:14 PM   #283
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Tom Quinn wrote: View Post
Almost sounds like Intent.
Yes, intent is of the spirit, you. That's one facet.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:33 PM   #284
Janet Rosen
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what if you cross the road with a chicken and a duck? would that be ducking chicken or peeking duck?
Hmmm, a three way cross between a road, a chicken and a duck must involve consultation with the Triborough Bridge Authority. Meanwhile...
If you cross a road with a duck, waddle you get?
A viaduct.
Viaduct? Vi not a chicken?
Is there room for Marxist thought in a thread on spirituality?

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:46 PM   #285
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
SPIRIT..... Unfortunately most are only aware that they can feel the effects of the five physical senses. Then they are aware they can feel the effects from the mind. These two are well known. Yet not knowing you can also feel the effects of spiritual then those feelings are usually put down as something else, wrongly of course, but what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.

Peace.G.
Hey Graham,
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things as you have, though I have read all the works of Kubler Ross and Raymond Moody.

What I do know is that last night, both Delly (my partner) and I woke up thinking our house was being burglarized. Then we both instinctively knew it wasn't us. We find out, the celestial phone call was about our very good friend about a mile away. She attempted to stop a neighbor's house from being burgled and was assaulted and battered in the process. Luckily, she is ok today. Just bruises.

I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.

I am sure snipers know this skill. I had it when I was bushwhacking smugglers in the Border Patrol. When out on a desolate ranch at night, you have to blank out your sense of self or the smugglers will sense you.

Tecumseh had this skill developed very well. While organizing the Red Stick Confederation against the new U.S. Government, his attempts to persuade Big Warrior, principal chief of the Upper Creeks, had failed. In anger Tecumseh finally shouted at the old chief, “Your blood is white! . . . You do not believe the Great Spirit has sent me. You shall know. I leave Tuckhabatchee directly and shall go . . . to
Detroit. When I arrive there, I will stamp on the ground with my foot, and shake down every
house in Tuckhabatchee!” Two months later, the New madrid earthquakes began (December 1811 - February 1812.

see: see John Sugden, “Early Pan-Indianism: Tecumseh’s Tour of the Indian Country, 1811-1812,” American Indian Quarterly 10, no. 4 (Autumn 1986): 273-304.
and
http://www.davidwfletcher.com/resour...arthquakes.pdf

Wow, Little Monk Nupchen in an indian headress.

I believe that, when you see past the veil between heaven and earth, Aiki is everywhere and can be used even without the body.

Of course, even a study of this field can get over analyzed and subject to reductive experimentation.

Be well,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-27-2012 at 12:49 PM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 01:14 PM   #286
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Hmmm, a three way cross between a road, a chicken and a duck must involve consultation with the Triborough Bridge Authority. Meanwhile...
If you cross a road with a duck, waddle you get?
A viaduct.
Viaduct? Vi not a chicken?
Is there room for Marxist thought in a thread on spirituality?
Karl or Groucho ?

Greg
 
Old 06-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #287
mathewjgano
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things...
I try for this as well. Using words to describe things makes it hard to avoid though. I find myself bouncing back and forth between trying to connect the micro and macro ends of the spectrum; parts and whole. I suppose that's why there are so many descriptions of how we cannot describe the essential truth of reality.

Quote:
I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.
Well, there's also something to be said of his apparent paranoia, although I can accept the possibility of such an intuition. He still made sure people entered buildings before him or tasted the very tea he himself brewed (albeit from others' tea leaves). I believe in working to develop intuition because I understand the brain processes so much more information than we are consciously aware of, but I also believe in tempering it with cold hard logic as much as possible.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-27-2012, 01:54 PM   #288
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Well, there's also something to be said of his apparent paranoia, although I can accept the possibility of such an intuition. He still made sure people entered buildings before him or tasted the very tea he himself brewed (albeit from others' tea leaves). I believe in working to develop intuition because I understand the brain processes so much more information than we are consciously aware of, but I also believe in tempering it with cold hard logic as much as possible.
Perhaps necessity is the birthplace of such things.
Personally, I cannot believe how many people allow themselves to eat and drink poisons in packaged foods and drinks, toothpaste and the water supply.

I guess it is a part of the great divorce we have had with mother earth, brother sun and sister moon.

Perhaps I am paranoid, but I garden most of my veggies and fruits. I drink only the best teas from specialty importers (my deep ecology and martial arts buddy Shawn) and I am building a fishery in the back yard and I have a water purifier that separates the Flouride from the water.

They are coming to take me away, ha ha, ho, ho, he, he.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-27-2012 at 01:57 PM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:03 PM   #289
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Hey Graham,
I am not sure that I am ready to adopt a belief that divides things as you have, though I have read all the works of Kubler Ross and Raymond Moody.

What I do know is that last night, both Delly (my partner) and I woke up thinking our house was being burglarized. Then we both instinctively knew it wasn't us. We find out, the celestial phone call was about our very good friend about a mile away. She attempted to stop a neighbor's house from being burgled and was assaulted and battered in the process. Luckily, she is ok today. Just bruises.

I understand that Takeda, Sokaku could know if there was a "bad intent" coming from someone on the other side of a wall. This skill was easy to develop in the barrios of Tijuana. And I even use it while riding my bicycle. I can "know" there is a driver who is not being attentive as far as 50 years behind me.

I am sure snipers know this skill. I had it when I was bushwhacking smugglers in the Border Patrol. When out on a desolate ranch at night, you have to blank out your sense of self or the smugglers will sense you.

Tecumseh had this skill developed very well. While organizing the Red Stick Confederation against the new U.S. Government, his attempts to persuade Big Warrior, principal chief of the Upper Creeks, had failed. In anger Tecumseh finally shouted at the old chief, "Your blood is white! . . . You do not believe the Great Spirit has sent me. You shall know. I leave Tuckhabatchee directly and shall go . . . to
Detroit. When I arrive there, I will stamp on the ground with my foot, and shake down every
house in Tuckhabatchee!" Two months later, the New madrid earthquakes began (December 1811 - February 1812.

see: see John Sugden, "Early Pan-Indianism: Tecumseh's Tour of the Indian Country, 1811-1812," American Indian Quarterly 10, no. 4 (Autumn 1986): 273-304.
and
http://www.davidwfletcher.com/resour...arthquakes.pdf

Wow, Little Monk Nupchen in an indian headress.

I believe that, when you see past the veil between heaven and earth, Aiki is everywhere and can be used even without the body.

Of course, even a study of this field can get over analyzed and subject to reductive experimentation.

Be well,

Chris
Nice example of spiritual awareness Chris. You say you don't want to adopt a belief that divides as I have but the other night you did just that didn't you?

Didn't you feel that something and think it was your house being burgled. Then with your friend didn't you acknowledge (so you must have checked) in yourselves that it wasn't in your mind, unrelated to anything. Then didn't you discover who it was? Spiritual perception.

As I said earlier people put things down as 'other' or imagination for they have not studied it or been brought up understanding it. So many know a person is phoning them before it happens, know what the other is going to say before they say it, know what the persons thinking before they utter a word. So many things put down as ........ well you name it. They don't know what to put it down to.

I differentiate because there are 'technical' differences which are universal in effect.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:15 PM   #290
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

In a pre-industrial mind, perhaps in the mind of Deguchi Nao (1836--1918) and Deguchi Onisaburō (1871--1948), spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

be well,

Chris
I couldn't agree more. You are no spring chicken... you remember the days when people had the attitude that if it was natural, it was good. That spirituality was about being groovy and going with the flow. That was all a reaction to the post WWII materialism and conformity.

But that period coincided with the period of greatest growth for Aikido and the art attracted a disproportionate number of folks who had the philosophical / spiritual alignment.

Pirsig's book, one of my favorites, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, talks about this and I think his discussions are directly relevant to Aikido. The Aikido community seems to reflect the split between what Pirsig identifies as "square" and "groovy". So you have the "square" folks that put their entire focus on the technical... how does it work, why does it work, under what circumstances does it work, etc.

Then you have the "groovy" folks who pretty much take that attitude that the "feel" is paramount. It's all about the beauty of the movement, the feeling or harmony with a partner, and discussion of the art is almost entirely about the spiritual and hardly ever about the "how to".

The whole point of Pirsig's book was that this can't and shouldn't be a dichotomy, which I believe is your point as well. I think it is difficult for folks who have some real sense of this to participate in these discussions. It's one thing when the contributor is a newbie. It's quite another when the person is an experienced senior who is maintaining some point of view that you know to be from Mars. There are always different points of view and we all try, I think to be open and tolerant in general. But there are simply times when someone steps up and says, "Excuse me, but the Emperor has no clothes."

When I encounter someone whose technique is awesome and they have a solid understanding of the martial aside of the art, then I am apt to pay close attention to their ideas about spirituality. The technique is the bottom line because it's the part that you can't fake. Spiritual discussion without a real ability to manifest the principles in ones body on the mat is just disconnected, nice sounding wishful thinking. While I am equally critical of what I call the "bop and torque" folks and believe strongly that they will never become truly high level without being more thoughtful about what they do, to my mind, they are more likely to get to that high level because they are developing at least some sort of technical foundation. Neglecting that part just leads no where as far as Aikido is concerned. If being spiritually advanced was what was required to be great at Aikido, Zen Masters and Yogis, sufis and other mystics would be great at Aikido.

So, despite the need for on-line etiquette and mutual respect and tolerance here on the forums... I don't think we can really expect to have people treat nonsense as serious. Polite discussion can't require one to check ones common sense and personal experience at the door. If someone wants to prove me wrong when I say something is bogus, that's just great... I am fine with that. But until then I am apt to stay it's bogus or avoid discussion altogether, which I find myself doing more frequently these days.

That said, I enjoy your posts... you have an interesting perspective.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:42 PM   #291
donhebert
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

I offer the following possible way to cut through the words to something else, possibly spiritual:

I ask myself "what does my soul want?" I follow this thread with my whole being to where ever it takes me. Instead of nice ideas I find answers that are so deeply personal I am reluctant to say. Later, when I engage in training, can I sustain any threads to this deep place?

If it is easy to say I may not be sharing anything very important.

Sincerely,

Don Hebert
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:47 PM   #292
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

George,
I fully respect your position as I do Gary's. My teacher in Koryu used to say, We wanted magic, so aikido was presented that way in the 1960's.

Luckily, in the 1970's guys like Master Liang, Wai Fong Doo and others hung out with our Kenpo school. I got a smidgen of the nei gung and found sources that lead me to more of it.

I feel for Aikido leadership these days as they must now navigate how to steer a very large and diverse ship. I personally think, for what that is worth, that Dan Harden's service is of great benefit to
that end.

I do not say these things lightly. I spend much time in prayer and meditation. I hope my voice has opened some hearts and navigated a few sign waves in the midst of the chaos.

Each 20 years or so, a new season (Seculum) arises. If Strauss and Howe are correct, this cycle we are in could create a serious load of suffering.
http://www.fourthturning.com/

I wonder at what point Budo leadership put aside the technical discussions and began talking about how to navigate the beginnings of 1938 in Japan?

My Jujitsu teacher was belted by Mas Tamira in 1941 and taught Jujitsu to the paramarines in Tarawa and at Sugarloaf Hill. In the 1980's, To get
belted at his dojo required a working knowledge of the US Constitution and bill of Rights, an earned
EMT-B certificate and a working knowledge of American herbs.

I guess I got spoiled to that style of teacher. He was a wise Grandfather guide who had faced a full career of international geopolitics. An Intel officer under Westmorland and advisor to Chiang Kai Shek, teaching Taiwanese to infiltrate China. He broadened the discussion about what Budo was for me. I pray we wake up and spend time on such matters today. A great social reckoning is coming that will make so many of these discussions irrelevant.

Thanks for your ear,

Respectfully,

Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:53 PM   #293
mathewjgano
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
SPIRIT.....There you are, something many of you haven't much reality on. Not surprising as you have been brought up not to.
And yet many of us have. So you're suggesting those who disagree do so because they don't know what it is. Of course this is a two-way street, so we're left where we started. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not you and not me. Your certainty seems to suggest an answer to me...and I'm pulling for you. I want to believe you; to find a compelling answer that offers some kind of clarity.

Quote:
Then we have the idea that it cannot be defined or separated as real of itself. Well of course it can and it can be demonstrated to be. Mental machinations trying to work out something based on body and mind thinking thus outside of many's modus operandi of reason.
I have searched for demonstrations of this kind and have yet to find one. I've seen people suggest something was demonstrated, but it wasn't any more than I'm now demonstrating my secret handshake.

Quote:
Yet we have a man who created Aikido who emphasized it. Hence all the confusions on what he meant.
He emphasized different things to different people and people assumed they knew more aout the context than they did. Hence the confusion.

Quote:
Spiritual relates to that area which is not physical and which is not mental, yet physically and mentally you can feel the effects of it.
Oh, you mean heat? I presume, if it exists (not commenting on my beliefs one way or the other here), spiritual relates to those areas that are physical and mental too.

Quote:
what else can someone do for they don't know the difference.
Maintain an open mind, I suppose. And what of those who believe they feel spirit, but are wrong? Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell?

Quote:
Those aware of this to various degrees tend to follow or get interested in spiritual things for they intuitively know it's to do with them, their true self, true nature and god and the universe.
Convenient isn't it? Or, perhaps that's inconvnient?

Quote:
So we have an art built on spiritual principles, a lesson. A lesson in discovering your true self, a path.
As well as built on physical principles, which apparently come about from the spiritual. This is the argument many are making with regard to the importance of the physical; not a seperation of physical and spiritual like you're reading into (and which I too have misread). The Shinto view is that we look to nature to understand the spirit; we also can look to concrete examples for that which inspires awe (kamisama).
The argument for why people don't understand has often been that they're just not sensitive enough, and a good many people have taken advantage of this supposed axiom in order to persuade others. Enlightenment or delusion who can tell?

Quote:
Bit by bit peeling the onion, might make your eyes water. Those layers are mere clothing which are body and mind. Thus to get more 'power' people think of more muscle, more physical cause, more bombs, more tanks. More away from the truth. Nice clothes though.

Peace.G.
And yet those clothes are derived from spiritual threads...even though they are "merely" this or that. In one breath you seem to suggest we look to the thread and in another you seem to suggest it weaves into a pittance.
I like what you have to say more when it speaks of your own perspective and doesn't make presumptions about others'. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not me, and I am, I believe, about as open minded as it gets. Unfortunately that means I have to consider I am not as open minded as I think. Dammit. C'est la vie, non?
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. I like that, Don!

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-27-2012, 02:58 PM   #294
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Following on from Georges post I must say that it's interesting to see the thought process. Directed my way of course.

Implying no technical foundation, implying no martial understanding, implying body disconnect (must be an I/P thing) Stating technique cannot be faked implying something, I don't know what. Ahhh, so many implications.

Reminds me of the general view people have when they see someone doing something so easily, be it a sportsman or workman or whoever. They assume somethings wrong or the person is not serious or the person is lazily doing it or it's too layed back etc. Funny thing is that those who can do things in such a manner, even let's say a guitarist who plays like he's bored, have done more technical training and practice than average. It looks too damned easy.

I mean, a person who leans over sideways to scratch his calf with his left hand whilst taking an attack with his right hand and while body twisted, facing the wrong way dumps the person who's attacking just has got it all wrong. No body connection. Mmmmm. Attacker must have decided to sit down.....

Or maybe he's one of those charachters from zen and the art of temple building. Mmmmm.

No, jokes aside, they are just interesting projections.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:17 PM   #295
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-27-2012 at 03:30 PM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #296
Chris Knight
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Posts: 138
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

graham could it be you're studying another art and classifying it under the aikido umbrella as some kind of meditative form? just pondering thoughts really.

Speaking of peking duck wish my takeaway would hurry up
....
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:45 PM   #297
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And yet many of us have. So you're suggesting those who disagree do so because they don't know what it is. Of course this is a two-way street, so we're left where we started. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not you and not me. Your certainty seems to suggest an answer to me...and I'm pulling for you. I want to believe you; to find a compelling answer that offers some kind of clarity.

I have searched for demonstrations of this kind and have yet to find one. I've seen people suggest something was demonstrated, but it wasn't any more than I'm now demonstrating my secret handshake.

He emphasized different things to different people and people assumed they knew more aout the context than they did. Hence the confusion.

Oh, you mean heat? I presume, if it exists (not commenting on my beliefs one way or the other here), spiritual relates to those areas that are physical and mental too.

Maintain an open mind, I suppose. And what of those who believe they feel spirit, but are wrong? Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell?

Convenient isn't it? Or, perhaps that's inconvnient?

As well as built on physical principles, which apparently come about from the spiritual. This is the argument many are making with regard to the importance of the physical; not a seperation of physical and spiritual like you're reading into (and which I too have misread). The Shinto view is that we look to nature to understand the spirit; we also can look to concrete examples for that which inspires awe (kamisama).
The argument for why people don't understand has often been that they're just not sensitive enough, and a good many people have taken advantage of this supposed axiom in order to persuade others. Enlightenment or delusion who can tell?

And yet those clothes are derived from spiritual threads...even though they are "merely" this or that. In one breath you seem to suggest we look to the thread and in another you seem to suggest it weaves into a pittance.
I like what you have to say more when it speaks of your own perspective and doesn't make presumptions about others'. Enlightenment or delusion, who can tell? Not me, and I am, I believe, about as open minded as it gets. Unfortunately that means I have to consider I am not as open minded as I think. Dammit. C'est la vie, non?
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. I like that, Don!
Yes Matthew. An open mind can look and say maybe this or maybe that. An open mind can accept the possibility of that view and that view. An open mind can weigh it up for theirself.

But the who can tell mind that stays there doesn't progress from shoshin.

There is both a separation needed in order to understand so that the correct relationship can be seen and understood. Heat by the way is something physicists can explain and is physical energy. Physical manifestation. You can of course spiritually manifest it too. But more importantly here for the sake of showing a difference let me use the word space.

Physical space is one thing, described and defined by physics and in the three dimentional physical world. They may even go on theoretically to describe other universes and spaces. C'est la vie. But then there is spiritual space. Very important to recognise the difference and how they both fit in Aikido and in what way. Technical. Real. Not physical, not mental.

The main reason rather than argument which has been pointed out time and time again by enlightened folk is awareness, consciousness I would say.

Yes it is true I point out the relationship and also I point out the view of the clothes as 'merely' this or that. I say both. To show degree of import. Not to totally disregard the relationship. That's why I like the story of Boddhidharma and indeed shin shin toitsu. Boddhidharma basically saw all the monks following the spiritual path and trying to reach enlightenment yet he saw they wouldn't do it, or rather many wouldn't by merely sitting still and doing 'nothing' He thus introduced motion. Being in the states whilst moving, whilst addressing the real world, whilst facing whatever comes up. Shin shin toitsu being moving meditation had that difference too. Unifying whilst in motion.

Basically getting reality on the spiritual truths learned and seeing they are real.

I will and do give how I personally see things and apply them in Aikido and life of course but when asked or challenged theoretically or philosophically then I can also explain as above. As you say, c'est la vie.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:48 PM   #298
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Following on from Georges post I must say that it's interesting to see the thought process. Directed my way of course.

Implying no technical foundation, implying no martial understanding, implying body disconnect (must be an I/P thing) Stating technique cannot be faked implying something, I don't know what. Ahhh, so many implications.

Reminds me of the general view people have when they see someone doing something so easily, be it a sportsman or workman or whoever. They assume somethings wrong or the person is not serious or the person is lazily doing it or it's too layed back etc. Funny thing is that those who can do things in such a manner, even let's say a guitarist who plays like he's bored, have done more technical training and practice than average. It looks too damned easy.

I mean, a person who leans over sideways to scratch his calf with his left hand whilst taking an attack with his right hand and while body twisted, facing the wrong way dumps the person who's attacking just has got it all wrong. No body connection. Mmmmm. Attacker must have decided to sit
down.....
Or maybe he's one of those charachters from zen and the art of temple building. Mmmmm.
No, jokes aside, they are just interesting projections.
Peace.G.
Still, I have to wonder why you would't meet Dan if he is willing to knock on your dojo door? When I had a dojo, I welcomed all visitors.

Just sayin'

Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:54 PM   #299
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
graham could it be you're studying another art and classifying it under the aikido umbrella as some kind of meditative form? just pondering thoughts really.

Speaking of peking duck wish my takeaway would hurry up
....
No. Mmmmm, can't concentrate now, you're making me hungry.

Chris, a lot of what I say comes through the practice of Aikido and I would hope that many realize many things through such.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 04:04 PM   #300
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Still, I have to wonder why you would't meet Dan if he is willing to knock on your dojo door? When I had a dojo, I welcomed all visitors.

Just sayin'

Chris
Chris didn't you try? (don't answer that on this thread please)

Many people wonder that too. They have their own conclusions too. It's a nice saying to say 'we welcome all' but in reality that's not the case.

If it bugs you that much you can pm me.

Peace.G.
 

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