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Old 06-26-2012, 07:48 PM   #251
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that Úlan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...
George:

In order to live in that alternative universe, you need to be able to maintain The Golden Equilibrium.

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position.

Look forward to seeing you guys in August!

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-26-2012, 08:05 PM   #252
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that Úlan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...
George.
To believe spirit transcends physical is not a new thing. What's the problem?

You find it impossible to ignore? Well it bears no relation to to frenc warrior belief as superiority although they may call Ki 'elan vitale'.

It's not about superiority. Certainly not about death. Maybe you believe body transcends spirit or some such.

I think you will find spiritual paths to enlightenment or satori are real. Never heard anyone say about a physical path to enlightenment or indeed a mental path to enlightenment or that it has anything to do with intellect.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 12:07 AM   #253
mathewjgano
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think you will find spiritual paths to enlightenment or satori are real. Never heard anyone say about a physical path to enlightenment or indeed a mental path to enlightenment or that it has anything to do with intellect.

Peace.G.
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-27-2012, 03:00 AM   #254
tombuchanan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.
Great comment. So if there's not a precise definition of spirit, how can we say what is "spiritual"?

Isn't this the same problem so often encountered with the the term "aiki"? If aiki is not well defined, how can we talk about aikido?

If we don't know what moonshine is, can we really make a still?

So what is spirit? And what is it's relation to aiki (assuming we know what that is)?
 
Old 06-27-2012, 04:31 AM   #255
Chris Knight
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
I personally agree. Body work is necessary. if you want to have the BIG edge. And I doubt that Graham has anything like what Dan has as far as body work goes. What Graham has, and what I connected with him regarding, was a metaphorical approach to key strategies, tactics and techniques used in Aikido waza as it related to conducting his relationships in business and personal matters. We discussed ma-ai in a variety of usages and I was pleased to connect with him as another human being without all the other hooplah.

I am sure that many folks are thrilled to have climbed on board the internal body training practices. I am sure that when Dan confronted them with this skill, that they were humbled. I am sure that it took great depth of character to accept the fact that their previous training had something missing. I honor them for that choice.

Still, many old 19th century martial practicioners in Japan did not have the internal training. Still, their arts flourished and they defeated others in battle. Their path was still a valid Budo, wasn't it?.

Indeed, Yi Long (the kickboxking Shaolin Monk) was defeated by another fighter that did not show signs of the internal training but used a lion's heart and a disciplined skill set. So a Budo that requires the internal gung does not necessarily make the others null and void. It simply gives them a BIG edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcvS...eature=related

and

If Ueshiba was so animate about everyone obtaining the skills he talked about (an aiki body) why didn't he teach the full system more openly?

It also appears that Ueshiba did have a deeply attuned relationship with nature and global peace as a practicioner of Oomoto. And he was surely courageous to support peace during a time when Japan was under attack. I can ressonate with this kind of courage as we now face troubles that are global in nature and few of us will be prepared to do so alone.

I suggest this should be a time that we use to help guide Budo and Aikido into a path that is inclusive constructive of all its practicioners. Let those who can do it become leaders that others follow rather than hammers trying to play "whack-a- mole".

To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.
In my opinion, and I'm sure I'll be corrected, internal strength is one of the main aims of our training, however aiki, is the instantaneous result upon joining/meeting/connecting to someone else. The dual spiral theorem is of utmost significance as well, and to develop this throughout the body led by intent, which results in aiki being created on contact. I believe the power is just a by-product of the connected body but without the spiral theory , it's almost useless in application.

From what I hear (and felt ) , this is tremendously potent
 
Old 06-27-2012, 06:34 AM   #256
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
This! Thank you Sir.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #257
phitruong
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Tom Buchanan wrote: View Post
Great comment. So if there's not a precise definition of spirit, how can we say what is "spiritual"?
hit the nail right on the head. easterner definitions of spirit and spiritual are quite different. something just cannot translate. the different could even be about "feeling the word" vs "understanding the word". for example, understand the word "blue" vs feeling blue.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 06-27-2012, 07:27 AM   #258
donhebert
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Joe... this thread actually reached out of my computer and dragged me in. I was helpless. I was over on Facebook minding my own business when a force possessed me and and I clicked on the link for this thread...

Do not resist, you will be assimilated. Jun cannot save you. No one can.
I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don
 
Old 06-27-2012, 07:48 AM   #259
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.

 
Old 06-27-2012, 07:55 AM   #260
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don
Brom Bones????
Well...I did get an 18 year old Katie!!
I think the majority of the dialogue here has had nothing to do with me.
For my small part.. I never "really" talk to Graham. I use him as a springboard to further a narrative. I've never seen his rather unique assertions supported by him or anyone else. And his points are never even close to being factually correct as others have noted, so there is no foundation for a meaningful discussion. Talking "around" his outlandish ideas with the larger community is what we all usually do.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-27-2012 at 07:58 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 07:58 AM   #261
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.
That's a fairly good assessment of things, Mary. I like the idea of the learning curve, tolerance and acceptance. I have actually learned quite a bit from my sojourn here on Aikiweb.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-27-2012 at 08:12 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 08:20 AM   #262
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
You are painting me into corners again. Personally....I don't care what Graham does or how he does it...he is going to do it anyhow..... I don't have to be concerned about how effective his approach is or will it even work..... it is not my issue. As for Dan, he is only providing internal work that offers the possibility of finding ways of improving how the body supports the rest of total whole....mind and spirit. And I am not trying to corner anyone.........aaahhhhh enough of this....leave me out of the mix.........

Gary
Gary,

I sincerely mean no disrespect. In fact, I have presented myself WISIWIG; with logic coming from my own knowing and experience and within the context of the deiscussion. I believe I should give no less on a forum. Doing so respects all with whom I am speaking with. And I stand responsible for anything that I say.

gassho,

Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 08:23 AM   #263
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Jokes aside......anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.
I resemble that remark.


Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 08:46 AM   #264
Rob Watson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Spirit is all one has left to fall back on when mind and body fail ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 09:02 AM   #265
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
I swear the same thing happened to me, only in my case I was checking my email and the next thing I know I'm trying to wrench my myself from the keyboard by main force but to no avail.

This thread has developed a sort of mad cap epic quality - perhaps similar to a road runner cartoon. Or maybe like a Washington Irving story with Graham's Ichabod Crane confounding Dan's Brom Bones.

I must resist...

Don
You need to establish a strong spiritual base in order to resist the dark forces at play in this thread - it won't be easy, but it can be done!

The absolutely wrong thing to do is to 'Put all joking aside' as Mary has said to do - that is a sure course of action that will guarantee your assimilation into the insanty of the universal

Greg
 
Old 06-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #266
yugen
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm still not sure what "spirit" is, but due to the inter-connected nature of mind and body I believe whole-heartedly in the potential for physical paths to enlightenement, as well as intellectual ones. Whatever parts we are comprised of, they're all there moving along as we take each step, be they literal or proverbial.
Also, aren't there Gnostic and other Greek views which take the "proper" application of intellect as a gateway to enlightenment? Whatever the case is for others, that seems reasonable to me.
Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated!

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...
 
Old 06-27-2012, 09:23 AM   #267
gates
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Graham et al,
This goes back up the thread a bit, but Tohei talks about his war experiences in the interview "The key to Ki" in the November 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine.
Regards,
Keith

Enjoy the journey
 
Old 06-27-2012, 09:32 AM   #268
Chris Parkerson
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Red face Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Spirit is all one has left to fall back on when mind and body fail ...
I couldn't agree more. Therefore, i interviewed one of my training buddies that has practiced (some with my direction) internal gung. He was a champion High School wrestler, Thai Boxer and Silat practicioner. He is a loveable guy that would not intentionally hurt a fly. He is happy to pound on concrete but intentionally changes his posture (bending forward) when he finally decides it is OK to strike me. He honestly does not want to hurt me. He also is unsure of his rheostat. Here is a guy that will walk into Tiger Village in Thailand, where the tigers have claws and are not drugged (at least they are fed), and still, he only want to find Taoist immortal alchemy.

Please be patient with the Iphone edited upload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSDDAnsyc7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNGHb5NhQ34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKsvb0io5GM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPccvGjVDok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTwHTHYWeM

Rob doing push hands with a Tiger.
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rob and Tiger hug.JPG
Views:	14
Size:	27.7 KB
ID:	1035

Namaste,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-27-2012 at 09:36 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2012, 09:50 AM   #269
donhebert
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Jokes aside, The title "My Spiritual Aikido" is profound.

The solemn practice of any discipline can produce the same results. Aikido training ( as I see it) affords the practitioner the opportunity to learn self-defense and spiritual discipline.

Posting on AikiWeb offers the same opportunities. Ignoring my first impulse to save or protect, or to be sarcastic and mean requires constant vigilance. AikiWeb has taught me about tolerance and acceptance and letting others be in their own process. Then I get to learn about self- acceptance when I slip and write something that causes problems for others. I misunderstand so much of what is written and take offense. Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.

I truly see from all the angles of posts that Aikido means many different things to so many people. Each duo of person and computer is like an uke...unique in each moment of now.
Hi Mary,

Good post. This thread has actually produced some worthwhile insights. However, these gems have tended to get mixed in, willy-nilly, with distracting personal remarks and hard-to-follow debates in ways that have been both entertaining and baffling. Nonetheless, the exploration of spirituality remain deeply important me and I would love to see us be able to deepen our experience of this in our practice in an authentic way. I am appreciating everyone's posts and I have learned a good deal more about what people are thinking.

Best Regards,

Don
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:08 AM   #270
yugen
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Ryan Schoelerman wrote: View Post
Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated!

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...
I should add that my post is also in response to the earlier post that "strong spirit transcends IP" ..
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:10 AM   #271
phitruong
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The absolutely wrong thing to do is to 'Put all joking aside' as Mary has said to do - that is a sure course of action that will guarantee your assimilation into the insanty of the universal

Greg
without joking, then you wouldn't have the phister and where would that get you! no humor, no joy, which against the teaching of Ueshiba The Senior. besides, one cannot discuss about spiritual stuffs without discussing why the chicken crossed the road.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:12 AM   #272
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Ryan Schoelerman wrote: View Post
Ok, I'm not a forum poster, not even really involved in Aiki practice fully, but I did some Aikido years ago. I just read and enjoy and the "spirited" (full pun intended ) debate has been fun and amusing to read. Like George stated I've been assimilated!

I'm recollecting from 20 years ago when I was a student of philosophy and cultural anthro in religion, myth and magic and throwing in my opinion to boot... "Spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath", espiritus meaning "holy breath" - many scholars link the terminology from the gnostic traditions and a close bond with, what were at the time, the religious centers of Northern India and Iran (centers of the Mahayana, Varjayana & Tantric Buddhist traditions). Essentially that what is "spirit" is physical and its simple. The simple act of breathing is what is the divine (zen). Ego makes it a complex "out there" thing. If you stop breathing, your dead, that's it. But our ego takes our minds away with drifting musings and visions of religious grandeur and the mind becomes disconnected from the simple act of breathing, blah blah everyone knows the rest..

Take the practice further and you start getting into the simple act of breathing leading to yogic bodyworks. Yogic bodyworks leading to amazing controls of body functions from heart rate, core temperature, etc. Take those yogic type body works and apply them to muscular/skeletal functioning and application toward movement like martial arts and "spirit" that started as simple breathing becomes a deeper holistic body system. Hence you keep going more and more "internal" in the process.

I'm relatively new to IP/IS but have been working on the path. When I do "get it" occasionally and move someone (who isn't compliant) it is "magical or mystical" in a sense because I'm not at a level to fully understand how it works yet. But I believe if there is "enlightenment" it is a mind/body connection and the body stuff comes down to can you REALLY do it, i.e. perform your aiki on fully resisting non-choreographed opposition?

ok back to the shadows...
Personally, I wonder if much of this disconnect is more about the shift from an indigenous mind to a Post-Cartesian/Post Industrial mind. I recently went to see the movie The Raven. In one scene, Edgar Allen Poe is listening to a woman recite her recently written poem. She was honoring a bee that was bumbling about and called it a "honey-making thing". His retort was superb.

In today's world, herbs are reduced to their biochemical compounds, a person's life is often reduced to what he produces in the work place, Aiki is reduced to internal physical practices.

In a pre-industrial mind, perhaps in the mind of Deguchi Nao (1836–1918) and Deguchi Onisaburō (1871–1948), spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

be well,

Chris
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:24 AM   #273
yugen
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Aiki is reduced to internal physical practices.
My point isn't reducing Aiki to internal practices. Actually I'm stating that the discussion of spiritual in Aiki is one and the same with IP practices.

Quote:
spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.
exactly my point! spirit and flesh are not divided.. good quote, thanks!
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:41 AM   #274
Janet Rosen
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
... Then I read it again and see it has nothing to do with me. Nothing written here does...anything posted only reflects on the poster.
That is an important life lesson right there....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 06-27-2012, 10:50 AM   #275
Janet Rosen
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
without joking, then you wouldn't have the phister and where would that get you! no humor, no joy, which against the teaching of Ueshiba The Senior. besides, one cannot discuss about spiritual stuffs without discussing why the chicken crossed the road.
Oh so many philosophical puzzles to ponder...

Without a road, what would the chicken cross? Does the road simply embody or reify the chicken's inherent need to traverse?

If you cross a road with a chicken, what do you get? If you cross a state line with a chicken, is it interstate commerce or a federal offense?

If the chicken crosses the road, is the road entitled to take revenge? Is that the aiki response?

Does this chicken make my butt look big?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 

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