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Old 06-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #226
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I see Ki as Tohei did - it is universal and it is in all things and it is not a magical thing; it is simply another form of energy existing at a level not yet discernible in the electromagnetic spectrum - however, that does not mean we can not see the results of its existence in the things it interacts with on a physical level. If anyone wants to explain away a physical science they cannot understand by applying a spiritual or mystic tag to it, then feel free to do so - just don't expect others that may have more experience in that area to agree with you.

Greg
I thought you said it couldn't be measured, not discernable in the electromagnetic spectrum. So how is that a physical science?

You say you see it as Tohei did. So you can see it? You can perceive it? Now is that with your eyes? Your ears? Do you taste it? Mmmmm. Which perception or sense are you using?

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 02:43 PM   #227
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
There are three things Greg, spiritual, mental, physical.

Many are very focussed on physical only I think you'll agree. Along comes a coach (in sport) or I/P and shows there is another dimention and that comes under mental. So there you are.

Now you learn mental things and techniques and practices to enhance the physical and work with the physical. Mind and body.

Now, those who were so only into physical were always aware that mentality was there but of no import was their consideration or else it was something that was not of their volition or control.

Just something that connects you to the physical. Sound familiar?

Now you do it you call it natural. Mind and body working as one is obviously more powerful than not, that's a no brainer. Internal arts generally focus on these two and thus develope theories based on them. But like the physical guy I mentioned above they can't deny there is another factor, just like he couldn't deny he had a mentality, and like him they put this third factor down as just a this or just a that.

Now, to your original question, why do I say that all you do is physical?

Well firstly that physical guy mentioned above would be looking at things so. Then we come to the way 'you' perceive things. Those into the mental side of things tend to approach things differently to the other wouldn't you say? Their whole approach becomes different. The down side is that where I may say one person is very physical and some may say such charachters in life are ignorant, etc whilst the ones into mind are more academic, into data, data, data, intellectual. Thus I could say many are robots, like living machines or walking libraries/ Funny thing is a lot of these charachters are very unstable when it comes to martial arts. Theyre too busy thinking. I'm sure you've met many such.

Person 'A' I would say is "being" a body. Person "B" I would say is "BEING" a mind.

Now, a person unifying the two as you talk about is to me doing much better and feeling much better in themselves than the other two.

It is well known that the 'power' of the mind is greater than the body. So I call this looking at mind and body as equal in regards to affecting or effecting each other as nonsense. Psycho somatic illness should tell you something here. Mind affecting the body.

My first question to you would be if you are coordinating mind and body then what are you?

But back to your question. Spiritually I can get people to look at things, to look at mental things and physical things. I can get people to look and that is not with physical eyes. Now when it comes to creating or looking then many cannot but translate such as physical things. So I could give you a mental exercise right now which shows how you are seeing things physically even via the mind. Thus I say still stuck in physical. If it doesn't relate to what you have seen physically or according to the physical mechanical laws you are used to then you will have a hard time creating or doing or even mentally having something happen.

Anything not physical is what? What is the difference between mental and spiritual? The not knowing is the reason that such spiritual sayings and indeed principles are translated mentally and thus misunderstood. From looking at things physical and mental then any spiritual you can only call mental and thus never really understand the difference.

In fact you can have budo mind conditions, well documented, yet they actually equal, like zen, 'no mind' type conditions. No thinking, no plotting, no remembering, no history, no mind. They are spiritual and body conditions. Universal.

So mind and body is one thing but spiritual people who have realized the "reality" of mind then enter a new phase. A 'ueshiba' phase and no longer that 'old' mind and body internal thing.

That is now seen as very physical.

Peace.G.
In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills

Greg
 
Old 06-26-2012, 02:48 PM   #228
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I thought you said it couldn't be measured, not discernable in the electromagnetic spectrum. So how is that a physical science?

You say you see it as Tohei did. So you can see it? You can perceive it? Now is that with your eyes? Your ears? Do you taste it? Mmmmm. Which perception or sense are you using?

Peace.G.
You know exactly what I am saying here - don't bother with your normal cute little twist of words; I am not biting.....

Greg
 
Old 06-26-2012, 02:51 PM   #229
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills

Greg
That's cool. I can see that. I actually agree with what you say there.

Strong spirit actually transcends I/P though That doesn't mean it's off on it's own though it means it now produces unification in alignment with the fundamentals of the universe.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 02:59 PM   #230
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
In a convoluted way, I actually was able to follow your logic somewhat. Granted, there is also the spiritual domain, and I see a strong spirit in conjunction with a coordinated mind and body being superior to a weak spirit and coordinated mind and body, but the spirit alone will not provide for effective development of IS/IP - Actually, those of us following Dan's methods are very spiritual in our own ways; we have to be in order to have the wisdom to recognize the importance of this knowledge and to generate the committed motivation to obtain those skills

Greg
Greg:

By almost understanding him, you will be awarded an honorary degree in psychology ! I hate to break it to people, but the distinction between "mind" & "body" is an artificial construct created by us humans. Boy would I like to see a mind without a functional attachment to a body. I have seen bodies that I have questioned any link to a useful mind..... Now "spirituality" is simply another construct that has a purpose designed to create some order & understanding for us lowly humans. This construct cannot be separated from "mind" anymore than a mind can exist separate from a body.

Now that the facts of life have been explained, how long does will this nonsense continue?

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #231
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I believe that is exactly how scientists have explained the existence of black holes - since nothing can escape the gravitational pull of a black hole, no actual physical evidence can be obtained of their existence, but by looking at physical effects of things around them, you get secondary evidence. Also, can you see wind? no, but you feel its effects on you and see its effects on other things.

Actually , I can feel ki and and I can control it in my body; therefore, to me, I have evidence of ki.

Greg
Scientists have used the evidence to infer the existence of black holes but black holes still remain a theoretical construct as far as science is concerned. And actual evidence can be obtained from the observation of Hawking radiation, if it exists as more than just a theory.

Wind on the other hand can be directly measured with regard to speed. The component molecules that make up air can be isolated and even viewed using a sufficiently powerful microscope. Wind can be created in the laboratory, it can be blocked, used to turn a windmill...

I have no doubt that you can and do use Ki and can feel it, and its absence when your mind and body are not coordinated. But that evidence is anecdotal if you insist that Ki is a form of electromagnetic energy. Perhaps your feelings and physical prowess with mind and body coordinated can be explained as a very complex synergy of mental and physical processes heretofore unexplained and unobserved. If that's the case then KI as an all pervasive energy (like the old pre-relativity ether) is unnecessary and can be done away with altogether.

All I'm saying Greg is that your belief that Ki exists as energy independent of what you do to create it is as much an act of faith as scientific certainty.

Ron

 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:28 PM   #232
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Re Marc:Kinda validates what I said earlier. No wonder Ueshiba gets so badly misunderstood.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:32 PM   #233
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Greg:

By almost understanding him, you will be awarded an honorary degree in psychology !

Now that the facts of life have been explained, how long does will this nonsense continue?
It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #234
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
It will continue as long as people keep feeding the OP

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
You mean replying and communicating and adding. Surely this shouldn't happen of a forum.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 03:38 PM   #235
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Dan, you said, "Ueshiba knew this all to well and his spiritual pursuit NEVER produced the power you are all hoping for."

1. You frame the argument as if the only thing being discussed is power.
2. You make the argument as an either/or proposition.

While I accept the reality of what you have, I assent to neither of these two presuppositions.

My Aiki informs my connection with the earth and the mutual respect of all of life. It also provides a strategy (not just a tactic or technique) for confronting bigger and more aggressive opponents.

It also transcends physical ability and empowers my shamanic consciousness (manifestation).

This appears to be our great disconnect. I heard from my buddy that I have been bypassed as an attendee at the Orange county seminar. Just as well, this disconnect seems to be a issue to you.

Be well,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-26-2012 at 03:41 PM.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 04:08 PM   #236
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Hi Everyone.
I think this thread has been quite good actually so far. It has drawn people to express and clarify their different perspectives and their different reasoning's they use too. Opened up a few fundamental differences and not been too crazy on the whole.

Respect to you all.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 04:22 PM   #237
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Re Marc:Kinda validates what I said earlier. No wonder Ueshiba gets so badly misunderstood.

Peace.G.
Graham:

You must be referring to yourself. I acknowledge that I do not speak Japanese well or read Japanese. I recognize that I was not educated in the paradigm that O'Sensei was educated in. I am wise enough to recognize areas of my ignorance so that I can seek knowledge by exploring the areas that I do not know. I seek out the foundations of other pedagogs. I read, listen to and train with those with greater knowledge and skills than my own. I evaluate ideas and opinions based upon the best research and available knowledge. You, on the other hand, seem to discount all of those avenues available toward expanding your knowledge base. Your basis for understanding is based upon skewed and limited information (misinformation also) and you interpret it through your own skewed, preconceived notions. You express them as though they were based in some more established paradigms and demonstrate an astounding lack of knowledge when questioned about any real understanding of those paradigms. And you wonder why people view you residing out in left field?

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position. All that is necessary is for you to allow one side of the equation to get unbalanced and you might actually recognize that you are the one with a stunning lack of real understanding of O'Sensei, Tohei Sensei, etc. which can be observed in your writings and videos. Your attempts to frame it as though we are the one's who don't understand is simply juvenile and comical and do nothing to change the facts.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-26-2012, 04:31 PM   #238
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

You must be referring to yourself. I acknowledge that I do not speak Japanese well or read Japanese. I recognize that I was not educated in the paradigm that O'Sensei was educated in. I am wise enough to recognize areas of my ignorance so that I can seek knowledge by exploring the areas that I do not know. I seek out the foundations of other pedagogs. I read, listen to and train with those with greater knowledge and skills than my own. I evaluate ideas and opinions based upon the best research and available knowledge. You, on the other hand, seem to discount all of those avenues available toward expanding your knowledge base. Your basis for understanding is based upon skewed and limited information (misinformation also) and you interpret it through your own skewed, preconceived notions. You express them as though they were based in some more established paradigms and demonstrate an astounding lack of knowledge when questioned about any real understanding of those paradigms. And you wonder why people view you residing out in left field?

Let's review what I now have called "The Golden Equilibrium" This refers to the dynamic equilibrium created with one side composed of an genuine ignorance of facts and empirically-validated information, while the other side is composed of a deluded arrogance as to the correctness of your position. All that is necessary is for you to allow one side of the equation to get unbalanced and you might actually recognize that you are the one with a stunning lack of real understanding of O'Sensei, Tohei Sensei, etc. which can be observed in your writings and videos. Your attempts to frame it as though we are the one's who don't understand is simply juvenile and comical and do nothing to change the facts.

Marc Abrams
No. That's how you perceive me. You then proceed to tell me how and what I am. That's all. No more, no less.

Your golden equilibrium, your measuring stick and so limited it doesn't bear much comment from me.

So far all of your assumptions about me have been false so it can't be a very good system.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 04:43 PM   #239
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love. And the Art of Peace is the purest form of that principle. A warrior is charged with bringing a halt to all contention and strife. Universal love functions in many forms; each manifestation should be allowed free expression. The Art of Peace is true democracy. ~Morihei Ueshiba

Now that's more like it......

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 05:26 PM   #240
Chris Parkerson
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
If we are to find common ground we need to understand each other starting with what is the easiest to get to....".....how do you train your body to work as part of the whole?.....what kind of practices do you do to effect the body's functioning to do these things? How do you condition your body? Spirit and mind can be strong...weak body means nothing good happens. And you know that John has drills to help with this, that is what Dan is talking about at this stage is the body work, and that others are out there offering their approaches.

Graham likely has drills, solo training and partner training....other than just waza... to effect the conditioning... that is what I am asking.

Gary
Hi Gary,

I personally agree. Body work is necessary. if you want to have the BIG edge. And I doubt that Graham has anything like what Dan has as far as body work goes. What Graham has, and what I connected with him regarding, was a metaphorical approach to key strategies, tactics and techniques used in Aikido waza as it related to conducting his relationships in business and personal matters. We discussed ma-ai in a variety of usages and I was pleased to connect with him as another human being without all the other hooplah.

I am sure that many folks are thrilled to have climbed on board the internal body training practices. I am sure that when Dan confronted them with this skill, that they were humbled. I am sure that it took great depth of character to accept the fact that their previous training had something missing. I honor them for that choice.

Still, many old 19th century martial practicioners in Japan did not have the internal training. Still, their arts flourished and they defeated others in battle. Their path was still a valid Budo, wasn't it?.

Indeed, Yi Long (the kickboxking Shaolin Monk) was defeated by another fighter that did not show signs of the internal training but used a lion's heart and a disciplined skill set. So a Budo that requires the internal gung does not necessarily make the others null and void. It simply gives them a BIG edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcvS...eature=related

and

If Ueshiba was so animate about everyone obtaining the skills he talked about (an aiki body) why didn't he teach the full system more openly?

It also appears that Ueshiba did have a deeply attuned relationship with nature and global peace as a practicioner of Oomoto. And he was surely courageous to support peace during a time when Japan was under attack. I can ressonate with this kind of courage as we now face troubles that are global in nature and few of us will be prepared to do so alone.

I suggest this should be a time that we use to help guide Budo and Aikido into a path that is inclusive constructive of all its practicioners. Let those who can do it become leaders that others follow rather than hammers trying to play "whack-a- mole".

To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.

Be well,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-26-2012 at 05:28 PM.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 05:36 PM   #241
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
All life is a manifestation of the spirit, the manifestation of love. And the Art of Peace is the purest form of that principle. A warrior is charged with bringing a halt to all contention and strife. Universal love functions in many forms; each manifestation should be allowed free expression. The Art of Peace is true democracy. ~Morihei Ueshiba

Now that's more like it......

Peace.G.
Graham:

The last time that I used YOUR words to prove my point, you blew your mental cork and demonstrated how little depth you really have. I don't need to repeat that process again. Instead, Lets take this quote above:

1) List the exact Japanese that this interpretation comes from.
2) Describe the context of this "quote." Was it O'Sensei's direct writings? Was it it somebody writing down his words? Was it a verbal quote, electronically recorded? etc.
3) List the date and location in which this quote was taken?
4) What was the entirety of what was said and written?
5) Who translated the Japanese and when?

Without that information being taken into account, the Golden Equilibrium still applies.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #242
sakumeikan
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Dear Jun,
I am appealing to you [not in a romantic way I hope]to throw me and others a life belt to get me rescued from this discussion.I am sinking like the Titanic under the weight of spiritual/philosophical/I/P/Is dialogue from Graham and others.Do us all a favour,CLOSE THE BLOG.
THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe
 
Old 06-26-2012, 05:48 PM   #243
gregstec
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Scientists have used the evidence to infer the existence of black holes but black holes still remain a theoretical construct as far as science is concerned. And actual evidence can be obtained from the observation of Hawking radiation, if it exists as more than just a theory.

Wind on the other hand can be directly measured with regard to speed. The component molecules that make up air can be isolated and even viewed using a sufficiently powerful microscope. Wind can be created in the laboratory, it can be blocked, used to turn a windmill...

I have no doubt that you can and do use Ki and can feel it, and its absence when your mind and body are not coordinated. But that evidence is anecdotal if you insist that Ki is a form of electromagnetic energy. Perhaps your feelings and physical prowess with mind and body coordinated can be explained as a very complex synergy of mental and physical processes heretofore unexplained and unobserved. If that's the case then KI as an all pervasive energy (like the old pre-relativity ether) is unnecessary and can be done away with altogether.

All I'm saying Greg is that your belief that Ki exists as energy independent of what you do to create it is as much an act of faith as scientific certainty.

Ron
Ok, Ron, I can agree to that - all I am really trying to say is this is how I view ki and my concept of ki appears to fit other models of ki application as in TCM and budo very nicely - can I prove this is the way it is? absolutely not, but until someone can prove to me it is not this way, it works for how I apply ki very nicely. I have been playing around with this ki stuff for a long time ( mid 70s) like you have I am sure, and I keep coming back to this viewpoint, etc

Greg
 
Old 06-26-2012, 05:53 PM   #244
Hellis
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jun,

THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe
England against Italy was like this thread, no matter what you say or do it is a no win situation.

This is when we need Tony's no nonsense comments to add some sense and cut through the bs.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`.
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-26-2012, 06:12 PM   #245
Marc Abrams
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
England against Italy was like this thread, no matter what you say or do it is a no win situation.

This is when we need Tony's no nonsense comments to add some sense and cut through the bs.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`.
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Henry & Joe:

Hope all is well for both of you guys! At least England and Italy got out there on the pitch and demonstrated action and not useless words like the original poster. This thread like others, ends up where they always seem to with him. The Golden Equilibrium exists because the glaring lack of integrity to put actions behind the words to get beyond a state of deluded arrogance.

Italy & England was a GREAT game to watch. I was actually rooting for England to win, particularly after the European Club tournament. Portugal & Germany in the finals will be an AWESOME match!

Regards from across the pond!

Marc Abrams
 
Old 06-26-2012, 06:29 PM   #246
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Italy & England was a GREAT game to watch.
I agree! I thoroughly enjoyed that match as both teams fought hard and honestly. I was rooting for England as well, and I thought they had some brilliant attacking moments (which they unfortunately wasted). I like Germany's football as well. And as much as I like highly technical football, Spain's games are a zzzZZZZZZ-zzzZZ-zzzz
 
Old 06-26-2012, 07:04 PM   #247
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

To follow the path of cornering those who cannot see your point is a doomed one. Pandora's box was opened by Ueshiba himself. You cannot put all the folks who are training in Aikido sans the internal stuff back into the box. And to divide the art between the ones that have it againsrt the ones that do not is not going to make them vanish.

Be well,

Chris
Chris
You are painting me into corners again. Personally....I don't care what Graham does or how he does it...he is going to do it anyhow..... I don't have to be concerned about how effective his approach is or will it even work..... it is not my issue. As for Dan, he is only providing internal work that offers the possibility of finding ways of improving how the body supports the rest of total whole....mind and spirit. And I am not trying to corner anyone.........aaahhhhh enough of this....leave me out of the mix.........

Gary
 
Old 06-26-2012, 07:41 PM   #248
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Strong spirit actually transcends I/P though
Peace.G.
I'm sorry... this is completely impossible to ignore... try as I might. It sounds just like the French at the beginning of WWI believing that Úlan was what made the French warrior superior. 1.4 million deaths later... The only way you can possibly believe stuff like this is by not getting out... It's like listening to someone talk who is living in an alternative universe...

George S. Ledyard
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AikidoDvds.Com
 
Old 06-26-2012, 07:41 PM   #249
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

The last time that I used YOUR words to prove my point, you blew your mental cork and demonstrated how little depth you really have. I don't need to repeat that process again. Instead, Lets take this quote above:

1) List the exact Japanese that this interpretation comes from.
2) Describe the context of this "quote." Was it O'Sensei's direct writings? Was it it somebody writing down his words? Was it a verbal quote, electronically recorded? etc.
3) List the date and location in which this quote was taken?
4) What was the entirety of what was said and written?
5) Who translated the Japanese and when?

Without that information being taken into account, the Golden Equilibrium still applies.

Marc Abrams
It applies for you yes. Limited. I understand it. I use it. I apply it. I demonstrate it. I'll leave you and your intellect to 'reason' it that way.

As I said, "That's more like it".

I don't think I blow mental corks though. Another false perception?

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-26-2012, 07:45 PM   #250
George S. Ledyard
 
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,620
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jun,
I am appealing to you [not in a romantic way I hope]to throw me and others a life belt to get me rescued from this discussion.I am sinking like the Titanic under the weight of spiritual/philosophical/I/P/Is dialogue from Graham and others.Do us all a favour,CLOSE THE BLOG.
THIS BLOG IS LIKE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND CUTS.Worse than watching England against Italy at Euro 2012.Cheers, Joe
Joe... this thread actually reached out of my computer and dragged me in. I was helpless. I was over on Facebook minding my own business when a force possessed me and and I clicked on the link for this thread...

Do not resist, you will be assimilated. Jun cannot save you. No one can.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 

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