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Old 06-24-2012, 06:56 PM   #151
donhebert
Dojo: River Valley Aikido
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Don.
I would like to make comment here.

The experience of duality dissolving into unity: Isn't that the meaning of harmony? Part of the word Aikido. So when you see some Ki Aikido for instance you see Aikido expressing that no?

Now, many may see it and not get it and not see how it can be martial but there again many see it and see how it can. I often wonder and indeed ask if those who go against it can do it. 99% of the time they cannot. It's a skill which takes a lot of developing.

So even if someone is just learning to go along with then they are learning some valuable lessons in that alone for that in itself takes concentration and mental discipline. They at least are getting a glimpse of what it is like to harmonize so I would say it's essential for only then can they see what they are aiming for, to be able to do in more and more difficult situations. Keep going on that path and you would end up harmonizing with the most dangerous and fierce situations too. This is one way of looking at Aikido and I meet many inside and outside of Aikido who understand this. They also understand how that would take quite a time and lots of discipline.

Some Aikidoka have a consciously spiritual aspect in their Aikido but generally I have found this is not the case.

I have met some from other arts including Karate who are usually people who have been doing them for many years but then they start seeing the spiritual basis of even those arts. They too then bump into telling others yet not being understood by many for they can't help to see their art from a new, different perspective. I read on here recently how surfing can be a spiritual path leading to satori even.

So in my experience there are some approaches that have the required elements to be called Aikido.

Ahh, the question. Connection between martial prowess and spirituality? To me the answer is obviously so. The reality of this can only be gotten by doing it in such a way and demonstrating to yourself.

I find Aikido as an art is so all embrasive that you will find people doing it for all kinds of reasons and thus trying to do all kinds of things in their practice. Why not indeed? It has been so since time immemorial in all martial arts. That's reality and a reality that is missed by those who shout it must be for 'blah'.

Peace.G.
Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don
 
Old 06-24-2012, 07:04 PM   #152
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don
That'll do nicely so why not stick to that as a zen koan? It would fit nicely as an Aikido one too.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-24-2012, 07:08 PM   #153
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are lots people believing lots of things. Good for them.
I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.
Anyone can "believe" anything they want, fine by me.....right up to them landing on their heads.
For anything meaningful in doingBudo this is a dead end.
Dan
Very interesting Dan. If such people don't exist in Budo then you must be the only one. Fascinating.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #154
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Very interesting Dan. If such people don't exist in Budo then you must be the only one. Fascinating.

Peace.G.
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan
 
Old 06-24-2012, 07:16 PM   #155
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan
You said this: I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.

Therefor if they don't exist and you say you do teach it then you are the only one then no? Your logic not mine.

Peace.G..

Last edited by graham christian : 06-24-2012 at 07:19 PM.
 
Old 06-24-2012, 07:20 PM   #156
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That is illogical. Is there something more meaningful you wish to say? You still haven't followed my own questions-which were simple.
Dan
I responded to your questions by asking why you ask.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-24-2012, 08:47 PM   #157
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You said this: I asked for powerful people using that as meaningful to their budo. The people don't exist in budo because the model doesn't work for anything meaningful to develop a budo.

Therefor if they don't exist and you say you do teach it then you are the only one then no? Your logic not mine.

Peace.G..
Instead of arguing I will repeat

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
There are of course physical locations in the body which are well known as spiritual 'gateways'. These are called chakras.
Peace.G.
I wrote:
Quote:
Other than an unprovable belief, where can I find anyone capable of demonstrating unusual power and impressive budo skills using these gateways?
Who?
Where?
Where can you find people capable of expressing unusual power and impressive budo skills using the exact same models Ueshiba is now being correctly translated and quoted for?
Many places.
Many people.
I think I was clear
Dan
 
Old 06-24-2012, 08:54 PM   #158
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Of course, I could harmonize with anyone who came onto the mat to practice aikido.
No...you can't.
Why? For the simple reason...as has been pointed out here...that aikido is not subject to your definitions or approval of what it means. I think you are trying to say you could harmonize with anyone willing to cooperate with you under your terms of what Aikido is....

Otherwise by definition...you are saying that everyone and anyone (unless you just meant you personally) can handle an honest committed attack by every highly trained aikido-ka.

I contend that there are thousands of people....tens of thousands, that many aikido-ka simply could never handle were they to do their aikido with them. There would be no chance to blend or do much of anything but get stuffed.
This happened in the past in Aikido with various men.... no one could throw Tohei. No one could throw Ueshiba, or Shioda...were they not doing aikido?

Can someone's aiki...do, be so good that they can no longer be moved by most aikido-ka..even without them trying to do anything?
Are there people so good in aiki that just about any Japanese Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu would be stopped cold?
Who then is not "doing Aikido?"
As opposed to just not doing Aikido "good enough?"
Everyone doesn't always get an "A"
Sometimes you are tested in life...and measured.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-24-2012 at 08:58 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 02:46 AM   #159
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Instead of arguing I will repeat

I wrote:

I think I was clear
Dan
Sorry, don't find it clear at all. "Where can you find?" you ask. Well I am surprised you haven't found.

When you say Ueshibas model then I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I don't think you know or understand his model. You know a model.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 03:00 AM   #160
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?

You always seem to mention 'most Aikidoka' and such generalizations even about 'shihan'. Always generalizations. I ask why? What is your point? It's nothing new.

Pick any outstanding master of his art and then ask how many of you in that art can throw or do blah to him? The answer will always be no one or not many so to me it's a silly thing to say or argument to keep talking about.

Tohei had a model. Very spiritual principles. Worked very well. He was a master of it. That doesn't mean all his students would be masters of it. Maybe you should read Ueshibas rules of training.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 04:31 AM   #161
Chris Knight
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?
Hi Graham, hope you are well!

What if you can't learn how to in the space of five minutes, and that the body work (training) takes 10 years + of specific excercises (solo) to have an effect

no matter how fast you learn

I think this is where the problem lies
 
Old 06-25-2012, 05:48 AM   #162
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Don
I essentially agree with the points above. I am on the run so I will have to post tonight. I have some answers as to how I see them meshing and influencing each other.
Dan
Dan,
I had hoped that you would have given us a bit more after this promise then what you gave us so far.

By the way, is there any change that you would willing to write a book on this subject?

Tom
 
Old 06-25-2012, 06:04 AM   #163
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I can't seem to be able to connect your reply to my questions - although I appreciate the attempt. I'm sure it's me but I am left with the same feeling I got when I read an old definition of Transcendentalism as expressed by a New York lawyer:

"Transcendentalism is two holes in a sand-bank: a storm washes away the sand-bank without disturbing the holes."

Best regards,

Don
Love that quote, very, very funny, and a much clearer explanation then Heidegger himself gave...

Tom
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:16 AM   #164
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Hi Dan:
That being said....by you of course. The same reasoning applies to you.
Best,
Mary

 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:24 AM   #165
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan, I could harmonize with anyone too on the mat. That means 'most' and also means they that I may have trouble with would be interesting and I have enough basic knowledge and ability to learn very quickly how to. So what's the problem?

You always seem to mention 'most Aikidoka' and such generalizations even about 'shihan'. Always generalizations. I ask why? What is your point? It's nothing new.

Pick any outstanding master of his art and then ask how many of you in that art can throw or do blah to him? The answer will always be no one or not many so to me it's a silly thing to say or argument to keep talking about.

Tohei had a model. Very spiritual principles. Worked very well. He was a master of it. That doesn't mean all his students would be masters of it. Maybe you should read Ueshibas rules of training.

Peace.G.
Hi Graham
FWIW, Tohei's principles were physical models and not spiritual ones. And they were not his. Ueshiba's models and quotes were not his either, they were old and known.
Many people continue -through lack of education and understanding-to mistakenly assign singular genius to these individuals, of material they neither created, or forwarded. Assigning the brilliance of Math...to the professor who taught it to you is not a level of awareness to be supported or encouraged.

I have been trying to avoid discussions of personal skills, yet you and Mary keep discussing your personal abilities. In order to refute what I see as errors in your logic or understanding it therefore falls back into having to discuss personal abilities. I don't mind doing so as long as it can be a friendly and frank discussion.

My assessment from watching and reading?
You have no ability to harmonize with what I would do on a mat with you. You would have little to no ability to even defend yourself whatsoever. The ability and skills that were available to Ueshiba are something alien to your understanding, therefore you have no ability to understand how utterly outclassed you would be against that sort of power and skill....without waza. Imagining you could handle it is all most in Aikido have as they have never felt anything approaching that level of power and skill. This can be demonstrated in several ways without harm and with cordial humor. This can be demonstrated with real physical violence and harm. The choice of what to do becomes the will of the person possessing these skills. It is a well recognized fact that mercy belongs to the victor. Once the skills are achieved (and perhaps more the moral responsibilities and compassion

Regarding the knowledge of what Ueshiba was actually talking about; only one of us can understand the imbalance of the equation and it is the one possessing the superior knowledge, so I understand the confusion.
I have offered to demonstrate this to you in person in a friendly and fun way. It is the only way you are going to get to face this knowledge and level of skill and your own lack of understanding. There...all debates will end.
I am actually for you and not against you. I just don't see a productive means to end our (hopefully)friendly debates, other than hands on.

Dan
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:29 AM   #166
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary

 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:33 AM   #167
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Dan:
That being said....by you of course. The same reasoning applies to you.
Best,
Mary
Not really Mary. In a very kind, albeit direct manner you would stand there dumbfounded as nothing you did worked. I know you see this as ego, but since I...unlike certain other people...never claimed ownership of the material, I would simply point to the greatness of the knowledge, and not us as individuals as the source. Once we get over the personal defense and look at how profound the work is, we can place it above ourselves as a goal we all work toward.
I am being kind, in stating flatly that many are going full speed in the wrong direction. Sadly, most only find out much later in their search.

Ueshiba was startling to seasoned Martial artists.
These skills, only now being made more public, are...well...startling to seasoned martial artists...who all thought...they were doing it already!!

Dan
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:36 AM   #168
mrlizard123
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary
Except when it comes to spelling or grammar I guess.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Your means that which you own...I think you might mean you're. Since we are talking about smart.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:48 AM   #169
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Old adage: Help is only helpful if it is asked for. But thanks anyway.
Best,
Mary
Well, you are the one willingly showing up in public and talking about an art and subject practiced by millions. You are being treated kindly as part of a discussion you entered into. I entered back into Aikido to discuss and demonstrate and compare Aiki skills. Your senior teachers are not doing too well in holding up your end, and the good news is...
They have no ego about it and are standing in rooms on an international stage....
And they ARE....asking for help.
In the fullness of time...they....will own Aikido, as no one else in Aikido will be able to do anything to them.
Ueshiba's knowledge and skills...win!!

Considering the fact that I and others are using Aikido as a base to bring the superiority of his method (Asian internal strength) on mats with other martial artists of all types-including seasoned MMA'ers...and they are becoming friends...I think he would be delighted.

There is nothing quite like completely dominating their space and then offering a hand and a smile, then showing and actually teaching how, instead of being condescending and telling them to steal it, that really connects with people. It is respectful of their time and investment. Sort of the way we should have been taught and treated.
There is a component there that is connecting people, drawing and creating community and lifting our spirits, that is truly compelling. Many have discussed how this work is healing their bodies and changing the way they think and react in the world and on the mat, that is part of my spiritual Aikido.
Everyone keeps smiling...while standing there exhausted!!
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-25-2012 at 08:01 AM.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 08:45 AM   #170
DH
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Dan,
I had hoped that you would have given us a bit more after this promise then what you gave us so far.

By the way, is there any change that you would willing to write a book on this subject?

Tom
Struggling with some VERY sick family members and writing in hospital rooms and Doctors offices while waiting.
This topic is dear to me and I don't want to give it short shrift, as I do not have the head space to write at length right now.
In short, the reason Martial artists were and are always supposed to be different was in the way their heart/mind organized and controlled their bodies. In the process this inward looking model heals and strengthens the body AND the mind. What becomes vague and difficult to discuss is that this process renews and invigorates your spirit and gives you a feeling that I nicknamed "Living free in the world" as that is how it makes you feel. It very much resonates with what the Asians discuss with their forging the body, forging the spirit sayings. I find this all but totally divorced from the physical culture; lifting, stretching, running, message, eating well, Yoga model I grew up with. There a few similarities.
Oddly, the inward looking IP/aiki model creates balance in you in heart/mind/body that when expressed in paired training has both a different physical feel and a different result on the person connecting with you. I used to nail people and defeat them and they had a competitive, fight back, push/pull/ reactive mind. When I was continuing to deepen this training I would still win and defeat but it created different reactions IN THEM. I thought this was weird and unusual until I started reading more of the ICMA teachers tracking and describing similar phenomena when throwing people with IS. Truly connecting with someone is not so much about connecting with them as using...hence needing.. them as part of a pair, it is more that you are balanced in yourself and...they ...become part of you.
This has a weird and unnerving effect on them as they feel they lost control. It is not like what I have felt from Shihan in Aikido or Daito ryu. It is similar, yet it is different in that it is deeper and enters their physical space and their own mental -intention- to do something. It is somewhat interesting to hear it from traditional martial artists, but far more compelling to hear it from MMA'ers from full speed encounters. Too see someone smiling at you from behind a pair of 4 oz gloves and asking [i]"WTF was that?...Why am I always late?"[/] Starts to cement certain ideas that the Chinese had as concrete and true.

The flip side is that I find myself completely dissinterested anymore in causing harm. I am more interested in control and imbalance and diffusing and not allowing them to hurt me or control themselves to hurt me. It sounds very Aikido like doesn't it? The only difference being I am making it actually work in non cooperative environments.
Got to go
Dan
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:09 AM   #171
donhebert
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Dan,

Thank you for a response under duress. This quality of an experience of "creating a pair" that changes something deep in both people is profoundly interesting to me and not exactly what I expected you to say. There is a fatuous element in Aikido (and other martial arts) that somehow one's amazing abilities are going to create a miraclulous transformation in the attacker. This has always seemed to me to be improbable in the extreme and as a result my focus has been kept on changing myself. But your brief description hints at the possiblity of a mutual transformation, one that has an impersonal quality and whose genesis is in the nature of the connection itself. I am very interested to hear more from you on this when this is possible and you are willing.

Having done my share of sitting in the hospital waiting room and being with extremely sick loved ones, you truly have my sympathy. I wish you and your family healing and the best outcome possible.

Best regards,

Don

Last edited by donhebert : 06-25-2012 at 09:12 AM.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:11 AM   #172
Chris Knight
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
There is nothing quite like completely dominating their space and then offering a hand and a smile, then showing and actually teaching how, instead of being condescending and telling them to steal it, that really connects with people. It is respectful of their time and investment. Sort of the way we should have been taught and treated.
There is a component there that is connecting people, drawing and creating community and lifting our spirits, that is truly compelling. Many have discussed how this work is healing their bodies and changing the way they think and react in the world and on the mat, that is part of my spiritual Aikido.
Everyone keeps smiling...while standing there exhausted!!
excellent post!
 
Old 06-25-2012, 11:29 AM   #173
jonreading
 
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

1. I think there are many people with whom I would not wish to "harmonize" on the mat. If, by harmonize, you mean use to clean the tatami. I think there is a level of zealousness here that implies a [martial] competency many aikido people do not possess...unless you play the game and collude aikido.
2. Some of these concepts seem rather lop-sided. For example, harmony is not "nage always winning." I think we need to differentiate between role-playing at the global citizen who is always right and engaging in budo. Sometimes nage is wrong and uke is correcting our behavior.

How can we train ichi go, ichi ie, while simultaneously allowing nage a few minutes to figure us out? How can we see everyone as "not an enemy" and then construct an enemy to vanquish? When I hear guys like Dan remind us not to play dress-up, these are the concepts that I believe hurt our practice.

Uke and nage are the same thing. So anything we claim as nage must be true of uke. To create cult worship based upon nage waza is unproductive because it does not consider uke. For me, budo is about understanding not only how not to cut down our opponent, but also how to cut down our opponent. I cannot fulfill my role as uke if I cannot commit to cutting down my opponent. This is [for me] why so many other practitioners consider aikido cooperative at worst and collusive at best. I think when you look at a spiritual side to aikido, you need to address its inclusivity of both attacking and defending. Otherwise, whatever you are doing ceases to be martially valid.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 01:08 PM   #174
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Hi Graham, hope you are well!

What if you can't learn how to in the space of five minutes, and that the body work (training) takes 10 years + of specific excercises (solo) to have an effect

no matter how fast you learn

I think this is where the problem lies
Hi Chris.
Good to hear from you.

I wouldn't expect to learn anything new in five minutes. I could guarantee it wouldn't take me ten years though. However I understand learning as a process and if I decide to follow that process, whatever it is I know it's purely down to my disciplined study and practice and application as to how far I go along that road. If I'm decided then I always get there and how long it takes means nothing to me. Time is not a consideration.

So there can never be a problem to me as far as that goes.

Being well acquainted with body changing disciplines from body building to health to even so called miraculous changes I don't see how it necessarily has to take so long.

Having said that I think you know me well enough to know I see those things as less important than spiritual and mind changes.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 02:15 PM   #175
graham christian
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Re: My Spiritual Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Graham
FWIW, Tohei's principles were physical models and not spiritual ones. And they were not his. Ueshiba's models and quotes were not his either, they were old and known.
Many people continue -through lack of education and understanding-to mistakenly assign singular genius to these individuals, of material they neither created, or forwarded. Assigning the brilliance of Math...to the professor who taught it to you is not a level of awareness to be supported or encouraged.

I have been trying to avoid discussions of personal skills, yet you and Mary keep discussing your personal abilities. In order to refute what I see as errors in your logic or understanding it therefore falls back into having to discuss personal abilities. I don't mind doing so as long as it can be a friendly and frank discussion.

My assessment from watching and reading?
You have no ability to harmonize with what I would do on a mat with you. You would have little to no ability to even defend yourself whatsoever. The ability and skills that were available to Ueshiba are something alien to your understanding, therefore you have no ability to understand how utterly outclassed you would be against that sort of power and skill....without waza. Imagining you could handle it is all most in Aikido have as they have never felt anything approaching that level of power and skill. This can be demonstrated in several ways without harm and with cordial humor. This can be demonstrated with real physical violence and harm. The choice of what to do becomes the will of the person possessing these skills. It is a well recognized fact that mercy belongs to the victor. Once the skills are achieved (and perhaps more the moral responsibilities and compassion

Regarding the knowledge of what Ueshiba was actually talking about; only one of us can understand the imbalance of the equation and it is the one possessing the superior knowledge, so I understand the confusion.
I have offered to demonstrate this to you in person in a friendly and fun way. It is the only way you are going to get to face this knowledge and level of skill and your own lack of understanding. There...all debates will end.
I am actually for you and not against you. I just don't see a productive means to end our (hopefully)friendly debates, other than hands on.

Dan
Dan, please, give credit to someone. Toheis model was obviously spiritual and saying it wasn't and indeed saying it wasn't his is a bit incredulous really. Only validates to me that you can't really know that much about it.

Many people continue to through lack of education and respect to to try and undermine others by saying 'it wasn't theirs' My Aikido is mine, no one elses. My sayings are mine and anyone elses sayings or words of wisdom I decide to post on my wall would be because I would say the same. It is still me communicating and doing so for a specific reason. As did Ueshiba. So once again I see no reason to try and make something out of it negatively. Moses gave the words of God as did Jesus etc.etc and many give the words of stellar wise men of the past, that's good. That's passing on considered important information. To dismiss it folly.

Bottom line though, if he used it or spoke it or wrote it then he meant it. Simple.

As far as the rest of what you say above goes I can only say read Ueshiba's rules of teaching.

Finally, if you want to discuss ability, which you indeed keep talking about, then do so. I haven't seen such up to now. I don't count 'I could do this to anyone and they can't handle me' as a discussion on ability at all. In fact to me personally it's a put off.

Peace.G.
 

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