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Old 06-18-2012, 08:56 PM   #551
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Not I. I prefer to surrender to the flow of energies within the moment. Surrender to the laws of nature. The tree that resists the wind, breaks.

Perhaps, we are just on a different path. Confucian constructs are great for herd control. I am not a herd animal. If anything, I hunt herd animals.

The Tao suits me better. Without it, a lone wolf would not survive. He knows that you do not break the laws of nature. The laws of nature break you when you do not abide by them.

Peace,

Chris
Well, I prefer a lot of things. As I said, if needed.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #552
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Herd animal handlers love to control them with nanny state techniques. They use a form of propaganda that teaches that everyone must be protected from the boogie man. Then they teach the herd that they should "see something, then say something". Spy on your neighbor. Let the nanny state touch your junk in order to protect you. Hunt your brother for the massa. Don't worry, he good to us. You can even teach the herd to eat it's own. Big Agra is doing that with cattle. Perhaps, in the near future, Hunger Games will be a reality. It won't be the first time.

I would prefer to have a forum where new folks can learn to think for themselves; learn to trust their own instincts; to think outside the box; to be lions. That just doesn't happen with nanny-type teaching methods. Kids get bloody noses and bounce back stronger. Trust them to self navigate and they will learn to do it. Put too many protections on the process and they will always need the crutch you provided.

A rant from an iconoclast deep ecologist libertarian.

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-18-2012 at 11:17 PM.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 11:30 PM   #553
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Please, save me the platitudes. Everything falls in time, including things of "substance", and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.

Best,

Chris
Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 11:32 PM   #554
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Well, let me try an effort to make it clearer to you. Although I have the feeling I am starting to repeat myself and someone else might be better capable to explain this very common principle.

In a discussion each person has an equal level of validity.

Keep in mind that I said; in a discussion (a conversation, a dialogue, an exchange of thoughts and ideas by word of mouth or through writing).

That is the starting point.

It is like horse-racing, all horses start from the same line and run the same distance. One might be better, faster, healthier, younger or more experienced then the other, it makes no difference. The running distance stays the same. The starting point stays the same.

Saying that the level of validity is equal or that each person is equal in a discussion is not the same as saying that all opinions are correct. Or worthwhile. Or encouraging. Or wise.

It is during the dialogue that we find out through examining the argumentation which argument is valid in supporting a particular opinion and which argument is invalid.

Someone may not like a particular opinion, not listen to a particular opinion, see a particular opinion as untrue. That is fine. In a dialogue all these things do not matter. You engage into the dialogue and then the principles of dialogue apply.

If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.
I think we all agree on that.. Though I'm not sure how a person can be 'valid'...

Quote:
If you look at the arguments of some the posts here on this thread you will see that some are of the opinion that a particular horse is better then the others and should therefore be given a head-start. Or better still, bring him to the finish-line before the race so we all know in advance which horse is the best.

Hope this cleared the confusion a bit...

Tom
Funny.. I never got that impression from anyone.. If anything, I'd say, continuing in the horse racing analogy, that people have a sort of track record.. And that according to that track record, they're pretty confident on whom they would bet..

How do you view the bigger 'issue', if I may call it that, that's going about in this thread, then, if I may ask?

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
 
Old 06-19-2012, 12:21 AM   #555
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.
The pyramids remain - but thousands of other ancient monuments and constructions no longer exist.

Anyway, nobody has proposed a nanny state - or even increased forum moderation.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-19-2012, 02:59 AM   #556
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe
Some certainly taste better than others.
 
Old 06-19-2012, 03:13 AM   #557
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nope. it's like saying that all animals tasted like chicken, except for the chicken.
Doh! Now my last post seems derivative... yet just as valid...
 
Old 06-19-2012, 03:17 AM   #558
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.
Exactly my thoughts... little comfort to the last person tossed in the mass grave.
 
Old 06-19-2012, 03:46 AM   #559
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Things of substance do not fall. Pythagoras remains. Hypatia's discovery that the earth revolves around the sun could not be destroyed along with the library at Alexandria. So do the pyramids remain; the use of phurbas, red sticks and totems. The teachings of Teotihuacan; the ideal of true democracy and of the forum.

Things built upon lies, shallow thought, ineptitude, and manipulation fall. The nanny state will fall.
It seems then the things of substance that do not fall have no substance.

Don't get too attached to the earth or anything that is on it, because in about 4 billion years the sun will consume this planet when it goes nova... that is, if we don't get ripped from orbiting the sun when the andromeda galaxy collides with our milky way.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hu...y-collide.html

Pythagora(')s remains... as in, he's dead. The mathematical truth discovered which bears his name is still taught. However the truth existed before and after him.

Sort of like the classic question, if a tree falls and there is no one to hear it.... If there is no consciousness to appreciate a fundamental truth, does it (the truth) really matter? (YES! is my answer in case you're curious)

Humanity will run to it's conclusion as well on the continuum of life and progress. Maybe what comes after will have more success... or something else on another world.

In my humblest of opinions,
Life is the universe's way of getting to know itself and merely a natural consequence.
 
Old 06-19-2012, 04:26 AM   #560
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tim Bergman wrote: View Post
I think we all agree on that.. Though I'm not sure how a person can be 'valid'...

Funny.. I never got that impression from anyone.. If anything, I'd say, continuing in the horse racing analogy, that people have a sort of track record.. And that according to that track record, they're pretty confident on whom they would bet..

How do you view the bigger 'issue', if I may call it that, that's going about in this thread, then, if I may ask?
The "bigger issue"?

The rock of Gibraltar.

Tom
 
Old 06-19-2012, 04:31 AM   #561
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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The "bigger issue"?

The rock of Gibraltar.

Tom
Or Graham's greatest triumph
 
Old 06-19-2012, 04:32 AM   #562
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.
Really? So you're deciding to get in to horse betting and where to place your bet, you roll a dice and choose your horse based on that? Or do you base it on the deliverable results of the past from their form and proven abilities? The reality of discussions on here is we're not discussing a bunch of horses that have never been in a race.

Yes, the six year old (to switch examples) is entitled to their opinion, they may even have some good ideas; how do we determine if what they are describing is a good idea or whether it doesn't hold water? Presumably by testing/reviewing/examining that idea to see whether it carries merit?

We all have buckets, they're different sizes, some maybe are chipped or cracked; if I argue that mine, despite having a hole in the bottom of it, can hold more water than yours I expect that you would want to see something to back this up? Without actual witnesses/evidence/explanation would you believe me? When you suggested that perhaps I am mistaken, I say that you would only know if you were the one pouring the water but you can't come because I don't need your approval or understanding.

Would you wonder what my purpose of coming to discuss buckets was in the first place?

When someone presents and idea that appears to some like nonsense or exaggeration and when called on it actually demonstrates it in person to hundreds of people, many of whom were doubting or outright hostile, do you not agree that it lends weight to their argued position?

Imagine I know no French (this is not too much of a stretch unfortunately...) but also I have no knowledge of it as a language at all, perhaps no knowledge that there are other languages; it may sound like nonsense to me. I may argue from the perspective that it is not language but rather noise. Others, with different levels of understanding may point out to me that I simply am not equipped to understand the communication and that I need to learn some in order to be involved in an enlightened way.

Imagine someone refusing to teach me French yet still expecting me to believe it was a real language?

Contrast with someone offering to teach me and this then shedding some light on what was just noise/nonsense before I was given some degree of understanding?

This is analagous to the situation, I think, because it's not as simple as a debate with word-skill determining who is an authority; the subject matter is closely linked to a physical activity/skill the knowledge of which informs the debate such that one is able to understand the topic at hand.

Whilst we're at it, I can disregard your mentioning of plato and socrates and wittgenstein since we start from an equal footing and they're not here; you can't use their arguments or achievements to back up yours.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-19-2012, 05:53 AM   #563
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Really? So you're deciding to get in to horse betting and where to place your bet, you roll a dice and choose your horse based on that? Or do you base it on the deliverable results of the past from their form and proven abilities? The reality of discussions on here is we're not discussing a bunch of horses that have never been in a race.

Yes, the six year old (to switch examples) is entitled to their opinion, they may even have some good ideas; how do we determine if what they are describing is a good idea or whether it doesn't hold water? Presumably by testing/reviewing/examining that idea to see whether it carries merit?

We all have buckets, they're different sizes, some maybe are chipped or cracked; if I argue that mine, despite having a hole in the bottom of it, can hold more water than yours I expect that you would want to see something to back this up? Without actual witnesses/evidence/explanation would you believe me? When you suggested that perhaps I am mistaken, I say that you would only know if you were the one pouring the water but you can't come because I don't need your approval or understanding.

Would you wonder what my purpose of coming to discuss buckets was in the first place?

When someone presents and idea that appears to some like nonsense or exaggeration and when called on it actually demonstrates it in person to hundreds of people, many of whom were doubting or outright hostile, do you not agree that it lends weight to their argued position?

Imagine I know no French (this is not too much of a stretch unfortunately...) but also I have no knowledge of it as a language at all, perhaps no knowledge that there are other languages; it may sound like nonsense to me. I may argue from the perspective that it is not language but rather noise. Others, with different levels of understanding may point out to me that I simply am not equipped to understand the communication and that I need to learn some in order to be involved in an enlightened way.

Imagine someone refusing to teach me French yet still expecting me to believe it was a real language?

Contrast with someone offering to teach me and this then shedding some light on what was just noise/nonsense before I was given some degree of understanding?

This is analagous to the situation, I think, because it's not as simple as a debate with word-skill determining who is an authority; the subject matter is closely linked to a physical activity/skill the knowledge of which informs the debate such that one is able to understand the topic at hand.

Whilst we're at it, I can disregard your mentioning of plato and socrates and wittgenstein since we start from an equal footing and they're not here; you can't use their arguments or achievements to back up yours.
I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom
 
Old 06-19-2012, 06:15 AM   #564
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

The rock of Gibraltar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UofP0fPLFg8

Meh.


 
Old 06-19-2012, 06:19 AM   #565
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom
If I was asked whether I wanted to move to Atlantis or Gibraltar I probably would prefer Gibraltar.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-19-2012, 06:51 AM   #566
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
If anything, I hunt herd animals.
That's one of my favorite things to do, actually. It sounds easy, but since they're all in the pen, they know exactly where you will attack. In other words, it's hard to sneak up on them.



David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-19-2012, 07:56 AM   #567
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Tell them that it is for the greater good of the Animal Farm and the cows, sheep and horses will stretch their necks out willingly for the pigs.

Did you see the cover of Time magazine last week. "How to die" was the featured article. Why?
Because it suits the white shoe boys who want to cull the population down to 600 million ( that is Ted Turner's number. Bill Gates said as much also on TED. Are we all now going to be willing to have our sick parents die early? Will the white shoe boys do the same with their patents? I doubt it.

These same policy makers after Fukushima turned off the radiation meters on the US West Coast and throughout Canada. They "reconfigured" the level of radiation that is the limit for human exposure. They did this be fiat, not by science. And they will slam any scientist's career who bucks their decision.
Now, 100% of the tuna caught on the west coast has cesium in it. Soon, they will have to admit that Japan must be evacuated if Japanese culture is to survive. Japan has such a plan in the table, I am told.

Cognitive dissonance brings herd animals to the glue factory. You see, as e. e. Cummings well said,
How to hump a cows
Is not
To push and then to pull
But stick your finger
In the slot
and call it beautifool.

He also quipped, "if freedom is a breakfast food......"

It is easy to hunt herd animals.

Chris
 
Old 06-19-2012, 08:34 AM   #568
Chris Knight
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Cognitive dissonance brings herd animals to the glue factory. You see, as e. e. Cummings well said,
How to hump a cows
Is not
To push and then to pull
But stick your finger
In the slot
and call it beautifool.

He also quipped, "if freedom is a breakfast food......"

It is easy to hunt herd animals.
me thinks someone's spent too long in the glue factory
 
Old 06-19-2012, 09:07 AM   #569
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
How come every Aikido teacher I meet-with no exception- fails?
How come they all are choosing to learn this material?
Substance over argument

The comments on horse racing
You do not get to enter your horse in the kentucky Derby just because he is your horse and all horses are valid because they are horses, or equal because they all can run. Your horse must be tested and have a proven track record to be a worthy competitor on a world class stage.
Same for boxing or much anything else.
No one is interested in watching world class competitors being tested against some nitwits half-ass, self-deluded and self-important stumbling, just because he breathes the same air.

Seems to me that only ones who continue to argue for equality of opinion are those who lack substance. It's a twice told tale that requires no amplification or explanation. Modern martial arts are a haven for people who are all but useless in a martial sense and most of their opinions are as useless as their skills. When it comes to real skill, they are outclassed in every way, and all they really have is an argument.

I liked the idea of the internet... where idiotic "experts" as well as ner do well martial art seminar "shoppers" could all be equally called on their B.S.-but that.... only through testing.

I can modify a budo saying a tad, to fit the discussion;
I do not look to authority (or strength of argument) for truth
I look to truth for authority


In the end I look at it and think....
"Why argue....with students!"
Dan
P.S.
On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.

Last edited by DH : 06-19-2012 at 09:21 AM.
 
Old 06-19-2012, 09:27 AM   #570
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Looking to truth for authority is a beautiful thing.

Regards,

Chris
 
Old 06-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #571
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
Skill in anything only qualifies the thing those skills are in. The validity is based on the role. Those people who might make a better argument for Jujutsu than Rickson Gracie serve a completely different role and purpose. If I want to learn how to work on Fords I'm going to go to a mechanic, even if the advertizer gave me a compelling reason to want to learn about Fords in the first place. I think of it as the difference between learning "about" something and learning the thing itself...if that even makes any sense.

Quote:
On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.
The spread of general information is the role of the internet; the spread of functional understanding and of ability/skill is the role of the mat.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-19-2012, 10:49 AM   #572
akiy
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi folks,

I don't have the time right now to sort/split this thread out into its components, so I want to ask you folks to help me out here. I'll just state a few guidelines that I hope will help this thread (and others):
  1. Please start a different thread when the topic that you are discussing veers away from the original topic.
  2. Please make sure to connect your thoughts to aikido when posting in the aikido-related forums here.
  3. Please keep your posts respectful and civilized; stay away from personal attacks and disrespectful language/conduct.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 06-19-2012, 12:03 PM   #573
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

I don't have the time right now to sort/split this thread out into its components, so I want to ask you folks to help me out here. I'll just state a few guidelines that I hope will help this thread (and others):
  1. Please start a different thread when the topic that you are discussing veers away from the original topic.
  2. Please make sure to connect your thoughts to aikido when posting in the aikido-related forums here.
  3. Please keep your posts respectful and civilized; stay away from personal attacks and disrespectful language/conduct.

Thank you,

-- Jun
Hi Jun,
Although not intended to do so, I think this time I am mostly responsible for drifting away from the original post.

My sincere apologies !

If you want to split the thread then I would suggest from page 20 / nr. 479.

Kind regards,

Tom
 
Old 06-19-2012, 05:01 PM   #574
sakumeikan
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I think I have addressed all these arguments already. Please feel free to come back to me if you think I have missed something, but as far as I can see you are not bringing any new arguments to the table.

What it comes down to is that you prefer the rock of Gibraltar.

Most people do.

I don't. Never will.

Tom
Tom,
Like George Formby I like my little stick of Blackpool Rock. Cheers, Joe.Ps this blog is for your Mr Ellis.
 
Old 06-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #575
sakumeikan
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Opinions and strength of argument do not qualify people in Budo....their skills do. I know dozens of professional writers and academics and budo teachers who could make a much better argument for Jujutsu then Rickson Gracie ever could. Give people ten minutes in a room and everyone there would chose to learn from....Rickson. Why? Substance over argument.
How come every Aikido teacher I meet-with no exception- fails?
How come they all are choosing to learn this material?
Substance over argument

The comments on horse racing
You do not get to enter your horse in the kentucky Derby just because he is your horse and all horses are valid because they are horses, or equal because they all can run. Your horse must be tested and have a proven track record to be a worthy competitor on a world class stage.
Same for boxing or much anything else.
No one is interested in watching world class competitors being tested against some nitwits half-ass, self-deluded and self-important stumbling, just because he breathes the same air.

Seems to me that only ones who continue to argue for equality of opinion are those who lack substance. It's a twice told tale that requires no amplification or explanation. Modern martial arts are a haven for people who are all but useless in a martial sense and most of their opinions are as useless as their skills. When it comes to real skill, they are outclassed in every way, and all they really have is an argument.

I liked the idea of the internet... where idiotic "experts" as well as ner do well martial art seminar "shoppers" could all be equally called on their B.S.-but that.... only through testing.

I can modify a budo saying a tad, to fit the discussion;
I do not look to authority (or strength of argument) for truth
I look to truth for authority


In the end I look at it and think....
"Why argue....with students!"
Dan
P.S.
On a positive note; the internet has also provided a wonderful chance -on a world wide stage- for people to meet and test opinions and arguments. This has helped to clarify, end debate, build friendships, and strengthen Budo in a way that is unprecidented in it's history.
For that we should all be thankful.
Dear Dan
Strong words [as ever] .Be a good chap and let us know who these Aikido teachers are?You always talk about how useless everybody is and how they do not have aiki.How about letting us know who the aikidoka who do possess aiki skills[over and above yourself of course].I do agree with your comments on the Kentucky Derby .At least I can check name of the horse/s who won the races and what the names of the entries were.You imo are a bit vague when you talk about Aikido teachers .
If you do not wish to name these people publically send me a private message.I look forward to hearing from you ,hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
 

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