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Old 06-18-2012, 03:53 PM   #526
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Depending on the nature of the forum, I would be one of the people who thinks a 6 year old should be able to do so. I don't believe in censoring anyone, no matter how ignorant. The best we can do in a forum like this is to offer a counterpoint that is, hopefully, reasonable and eloquent enough to stand on its own; which demonstrates the weaknesses of said 6 year old's understanding. If people cannot tell the difference, they should bear in mind the variety of opinions, conduct their own process of study, and learn enough so that they can.
You say not all opinions should be listened to. I fervently disagree except where the rules established by those who own the forum would preclude it. Organizations get to determine criteria for who gets to be an authority, public spaces not so much. If Jun ever decides to impose his will in this regard that is his right, not yours. Hence, within the context of this "space," which is the one we're talking about, I think we all get to voice our opinions (even relatively ignorant fools like me...and I do fit that description) until deemed too uncivil by the measure of the moderator.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt
Matthew,
Well put. I think we all know about children with certain talents that where as good as or even better as grown ups. Just think about Mozart.
As far as opinions are concerned, it is a bit like books. I do not read every book that is available, I make my own choices out of what I can find. And some books I like, some books I really love, but there are always books that I have no knowledge of, or worse, that I do not like. The last ones I will most likely not read. And I have seen a lot of books filled with nonsense. But even though I do not like these books, I will fight for the right to get them printed.
It is the same with opinions. I do not feel like reading everything on this forum, there is a lot of quantity on AikiWeb, less quality. Besides that there is not alway enough time. So I make choices. But whether I know of someones opinion, or whether it is new to me, whether it is strange or funny, whether I agree with it or not, I find it of vital importance that everyone has the same right to express himself.
Untill it becomes too uncivil - I could not agree more.
Gassho,
Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:06 PM   #527
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
When you do not accept the fact that people are all equal, that in a discussion each person has an equal level of validity, when you start saying things like "it is a modern problem that we no longer believe in elites" and "when lots of trustworthy people trust someone...", then in what direction do you think the discussion is going?
Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Well at least you are getting warmer. I completely agree; not all opinions are valid. And for sure, not all opinions should be listened to. And as far as chanting the chant etc, you are right it does not equate to having skill or valid opinions.

There is no discussion there. I agree, you are right!

But it is not the point that I was trying to get across.

Tom
I am thoroughly confused..

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #528
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tim Bergman wrote: View Post
I am thoroughly confused..
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:46 PM   #529
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tim Bergman wrote: View Post
I am thoroughly confused..
I'm not confused.

Each person is valid. Equal level of validity.

Their opinion may or may not be valid or worth listening to. Simple.

That's why getting personal or implying who can or can't is the destructive element.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 05:16 PM   #530
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

That which has sunstance, needs no defense.
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.

Absorb what is useful. discard the rest.
~Danny Inosanto~

waging peace,

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 05:28 PM   #531
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Sorry, Tom, but the Nazis were such outliers that using them as a parallel to almost anything is simply hysteria. It short-circuits any rational argument. That's the point Godwin was making. Let's see, AikiWeb is like Nazi Germany how?

The problem I have with all these arguments is that they confuse what people may do with what it is wise to do. Yes, you have every right, using the term colloquially, to show up here and spout off on subjects you know nothing about. People have been known to do that. And everyone else has the right to tell you what a fool you're making of yourself. If that doesn't make you happy, consider that you're the one who let yourself in for it.

As for the role of expertise... if we were talking mathematics, and kept insisting that the PhD mathematicians repeatedly walk novices through basic algebra, they'd have some right to be annoyed. And that's in a theoretical realm, where such an online review is possible.

Our topic is not entirely amenable to rational analysis, which is, Tom, where your argument breaks down. Most of what we're talking about can only be worked out on the mat. And even where it's not an IHTBF problem, much of it is simply about experience. If I'm told weightlifting is going to make my MA less effective, what rational basis am I going to argue from?

So yeah, argument and debate is fun. But when the chips are down, what really matters is who's got the goods--and who's willing to teach it. There's the folks I respect, and the folks who have the respect of the folks I respect. There are folks who respect the folks I respect, which indicates good taste and possibly that they are trying to achieve something similar in their abilities. And then there are a few who don't fit into that network but sound like rational people, so I'm inclined to consider their opinions seriously until given a reason not to.

All very messy and irrational. But in the end, that's what a community is.
Hugh,
Thank you for coming back to me and the discussion.

I never even intended to go even remotely into the direction of AikiWeb is like ...
As I said, it is the piling up of statements that were way too similar to that period that brought that point up. I wish that I had come up with another example.

Most interactions between human beings are messy, irrational and even downright silly. Only once in a while we meet someone with whom everything seems to be going smooth from day one. And some are more lucky in that then others. Off all the animals humans are the most aggressive. A lot of people even in modern times answer violence with more violence. Some have found ways to cope with it in a different way. The reigi of the samurai are a good example. By practicing politeness set in a particular form the samurai managed to control violence and to communicate with a each other, even with potential adversaries. The reigi was only meant for samurai, not for common people. Very much like the rules of conduct of the European knights.

There are many different ways of dealing with physical or verbal violence. The principles that we use for dialogue are an example of a way of proper conduct in order to communicate with each other. It is no coincidence that the original principles were for a large part formed by warriors.

I am well aware that these principles have their limits. They are based on the idea that dialogue is kept rational and logic. That people try their best to give a good and valid formulation. Previously I already stated that some people by behaving like a filibuster, deliberately try to undermine the dialogue. If we leave the last example aside, then in general it should be possible to have a proper dialogue where we accept valid reasoning and discount invalid arguments on just about every subject.

Up till now I have not found a single subject on AikiWeb where these principles would not apply.
Because of this there is no need to bring in an a priori invalid principle as one person who has more validation then another. Of course there are persons with more skills and knowledge then others. But that makes them only more capable to deal with the arguments of those who have less experience.

And sure, I have seen people come up with ideas that were wrong, misinformed, opinionated, or not wise to make. I myself have had to admit to a few mistakes. But why would that bother you? That is the way a dialogue is supposed to work.

As far as the limits of dialogue or rationality goes; there are things in life that are difficult to express in words, things where an argumentative approach does not work, things that we should not even try to put into words, let alone bring them up in a debate. Things that we should be silent of, to repeat Wittgenstein.
If we want to express these things then we should search for other means; poetry, painting, sculpting, singing, giving an Aikido embu,...

Some of the things that are talked about here on this forum are better to be experienced on the tatami - I completely agree with you!
But then why bring it up on this forum? For then you are subject to reasonable en logic argumentation.

Take care,

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 05:36 PM   #532
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Wittgenstein rocks.

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:08 PM   #533
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I mean, here is a perfect example of inspiration. Here's a guy that is the wealthies man in Europe and gives it all away. He feels hindered by the professors at Cambridge so he leaves them so he can think more creatively.. He has no degree, but writes what is likely the most famous treatise in 20th century philosophy. Instead of teaching, he goes to war in WWI and returns highly decorated. And again, in WWII, he becomes a hospital porter. He had no PhD but folks called him God. They just had to give him one so Cambridge would feel good about allowing him to lecture.

And, he was a friend of Rilke.


Would this forum have recognized him if he were a contributor???????????


I have given my life to meeting folks like this. And I have met them. And i look forward to meeting the next one. Is it you??????? Or you????? Or you???

bewildered and joyful.

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:11 PM   #534
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tim Bergman wrote: View Post
I am thoroughly confused..
Well, let me try an effort to make it clearer to you. Although I have the feeling I am starting to repeat myself and someone else might be better capable to explain this very common principle.

In a discussion each person has an equal level of validity.

Keep in mind that I said; in a discussion (a conversation, a dialogue, an exchange of thoughts and ideas by word of mouth or through writing).

That is the starting point.

It is like horse-racing, all horses start from the same line and run the same distance. One might be better, faster, healthier, younger or more experienced then the other, it makes no difference. The running distance stays the same. The starting point stays the same.

Saying that the level of validity is equal or that each person is equal in a discussion is not the same as saying that all opinions are correct. Or worthwhile. Or encouraging. Or wise.

It is during the dialogue that we find out through examining the argumentation which argument is valid in supporting a particular opinion and which argument is invalid.

Someone may not like a particular opinion, not listen to a particular opinion, see a particular opinion as untrue. That is fine. In a dialogue all these things do not matter. You engage into the dialogue and then the principles of dialogue apply.

If we were to apply this to horse-racing then my point is that all horses, no matter what, are considered equal and start from the same starting-point.

If you look at the arguments of some the posts here on this thread you will see that some are of the opinion that a particular horse is better then the others and should therefore be given a head-start. Or better still, bring him to the finish-line before the race so we all know in advance which horse is the best.

Hope this cleared the confusion a bit...

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:16 PM   #535
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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That which has sunstance, needs no defense.
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.

Absorb what is useful. discard the rest.
~Danny Inosanto~

waging peace,

Chris
I read this before, a long time ago. I guess it must be in his book. I was impressed by this simple statement. And rereading it now I am again!

Thanks!

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:18 PM   #536
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I read this before, a long time ago. I guess it must be in his book. I was impressed by this simple statement. And rereading it now I am again!

Thanks!

Tom
I wrote the first two sentences. Surely a composit of many a free-thinker.
Inosanto puts it into pragmatic use with his famous words.

In Awe,
Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:22 PM   #537
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
That which has no substance, cannot be defended and folks will walk away from it.
Unfortunately, there are too many things in this world without substance that do get defended and which people do not walk away from. Just look at politics.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:23 PM   #538
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I mean, here is a perfect example of inspiration. Here's a guy that is the wealthies man in Europe and gives it all away. He feels hindered by the professors at Cambridge so he leaves them so he can think more creatively.. He has no degree, but writes what is likely the most famous treatise in 20th century philosophy. Instead of teaching, he goes to war in WWI and returns highly decorated. And again, in WWII, he becomes a hospital porter. He had no PhD but folks called him God. They just had to give him one so Cambridge would feel good about allowing him to lecture.

And, he was a friend of Rilke.

Would this forum have recognized him if he were a contributor???????????

I have given my life to meeting folks like this. And I have met them. And i look forward to meeting the next one. Is it you??????? Or you????? Or you???

bewildered and joyful.

Chris
He was amazing, wasn't he?

Such a major influence on language, science, philosophy.

And to think that he wrote the tractatus in the trenches in between attacks.

He must have had a strong spirit.

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:24 PM   #539
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I wrote the first two sentences. Surely a composit of many a free-thinker.
Inosanto puts it into pragmatic use with his famous words.

In Awe,
Chris
Then I bow deeply to you!

Gassho,

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:30 PM   #540
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm not confused.

Each person is valid. Equal level of validity.

Their opinion may or may not be valid or worth listening to. Simple.

That's why getting personal or implying who can or can't is the destructive element.

Peace.G.
Graham,

Well, this just shows that a short explanation often works better then an elaborated one.

Thank you for trying to get this clearer to everyone.

Tom.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 06:35 PM   #541
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe
Hello Joe,
Quite the opposite I should say! I am trying to steer away from that situation.
All the best,
Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 07:00 PM   #542
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

As a casual reader I have some issues that stand out to me.
1. Equality and validity are different concepts. Several posters seem to use them either in conjunction or as a synonym.
2. Wisdom carries weight.
3. No one has addressed the expertise posters assume when posting a comment

First, opinions may be valid or invalid. Valid opinions carry a weight based upon the accuracy of the opinion. Second, the accuracy of the opinion is related to the ethos of the contributor and the weight of the opinion. Equality is a comparative term used in measurement; in this case we are measuring the accuracy of opinions.

Contributors have an obligation to qualify their opinions so readers may assign a weight to the contribution. One problem with public forums is that while everyone is exercising their right to post, not everyone qualifies their contributions. On Aikiweb, most comments are at least valid given many members practice aikido. The issue is the weight of wisdom assigned to the contribution.

As a point of note, if I continued the horse-racing analogy, I would argue that the termination of discourse is based upon the extent of the participants' knowledge. In this respect, the separation of the lineup would reflect the knowledge of each participant and the weight of wisdom in their contribution and the "finish line" would simply be the point at which only one participant continues the race (the others having reached their point of exhaustion). Some participants would lag behind because of grammatical, linguistic or semantic difficulty. Some participants would slow after the quarter-mile because they lack the knowledge to continue the discourse. Finally, some participants would falter as they poorly apply their wisdom to the knowledge they are trying to express. The lineup was valid, but each participate separated from the other through their own doings.

I could have a great dialogue with Albert Einstein about algebra, less so about advanced mathematic principles. Why? Because Einstein's knowledge about advanced mathematic principles exceeds mine. Alternatively, I could enjoy a great monologue from Einstein and maybe learn something. That's the kicker though... We are so busy screaming about how valid and equal our points are so we can have a "dialogue", we forget that maybe we should be listening to a monologue.

If your opinion is so much better than the competition, throw it out there and have the argument. If your opinion is good it will hold water and maybe give you the opportunity to refine it. If you are not ready to assert your opinion for argument, then engage a discussion to craft your opinion. But don't assert your opinion for discussion - that's just bad rhetoric.

Last edited by jonreading : 06-18-2012 at 07:03 PM.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #543
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Unfortunately, there are too many things in this world without substance that do get defended and which people do not walk away from. Just look at politics.

Best,

Chris
You sound impatient.
Towers of babel fall.
Bureaucratic Authoritarian governments fall from their own self-loathing and fear.
Yet, the patient man never has to wait.

Have you ever heard of the famous painting of the three sages and the vat of vinegar?
I believe it is called the Vinegar tasters.
http://darumasan.blogspot.com/2004/1...r-tasters.html

The Confucian (Rigid standards of behavior) says it tastes sour
The Buddhist (no clear definition of white and black or right and wrong) says it tastes bitter
The taoist says it is useful.
From the Taoist point of view, sourness and bitterness come from the interfering and unappreciative mind. Life itself, when understood and utilized for what it is, is sweet. It is like a reservoir of water waiting to be released. The water will flow eventually and cannot be stopped. So also with that which lacks integrity or substance. In time, cracks or leaks will develop, and the water will flow. Trying to impede the natural tendency of the water to flow its course results in disaster. To Lao-tse, only by working within the laws that govern the flow of water will happiness be achieved.

That is the message of The VinegarTasters.

Be Well,

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:15 PM   #544
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
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Dear Tim,
A bit like saying all animals are equal but some are more equal than others???!! Cheers, Joe
nope. it's like saying that all animals tasted like chicken, except for the chicken.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #545
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Just an aside, Chris Li, would you impose such rigidity and impatience upon your aikido randori?
 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #546
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
. To Lao-tse, only by working within the laws that govern the flow of water will happiness be achieved.

Chris
you meant only when you passed water would happiness be achieved? i agree. be right back.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:18 PM   #547
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
You sound impatient.
Towers of babel fall.
Bureaucratic Authoritarian governments fall from their own self-loathing and fear.
Yet, the patient man never has to wait.
Please, save me the platitudes. Everything falls in time, including things of "substance", and the eventual fall of a bureaucratic authoritarian government really makes no difference at all to those who are damaged long before that happens.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:20 PM   #548
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Just an aside, Chris Li, would you impose such rigidity and impatience upon your aikido randori?
Sure, if needed.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:38 PM   #549
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Sure, if needed.

Best,

Chris
Not I. I prefer to surrender to the flow of energies within the moment. Surrender to the laws of nature. The tree that resists the wind, breaks.

Perhaps, we are just on a different path. Confucian constructs are great for herd control. I am not a herd animal. If anything, I hunt herd animals.

The Tao suits me better. Without it, a lone wolf would not survive. He knows that you do not break the laws of nature. The laws of nature break you when you do not abide by them.

Peace,

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 08:45 PM   #550
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
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you meant only when you passed water would happiness be achieved? i agree. be right back.
Did everything come out allright.
Remember: the 6 healing sounds...

; )

Chris
 

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