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Old 06-18-2012, 12:53 PM   #501
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't know...
The community isn't exactly equal along all parts of the spectrum, is it? It's easy to say just ask someone you trust to ask someone they trust and so on, but it doesn't always actually work so easily as that, as far as I can tell. Plus there's a bit of a process which takes time for that kind of thing...which also varies based on the particulars of where in the community we're at.
I've asked a variety of people to give their impressions on people and recieved practically nothing in return. People aren't always helpful where we would like them to be.
When it comes to engaging a conversation we're all equals. When it comes to understanding that conversation we're not all equals. Tom's describing the first part, as I see it.
I still think the biggest hudle isn't people thinking they know more than they do. I think it's conventions in language and personality.
Like I said though, I don't know.

Also, to comment on my earlier remarks about "sticky," David made a good distinction (as far as I can tell). I have no real familiarity with Wing Chung sticky hands drills, so they are probably quite different.
Be excellent to each other,
Matt
Hi Matthew,
This is exactly the point; in engaging a dialogue we are all equal. And is this not the basis of what we do in daily life? Or in science? Or in politics? It is historically and philosophically of utmost importance, but in daily life we do not even expect it to be otherwise. We experience it as normal without ever questioning it. So it is odd if this becomes such an issue on this forum.
You are right, in understanding we are not equal. In acquering knowledge and skills we are not equal.
One person my be an excellent musician while the other person is a skilled carpenter. They are not equal, yet should be able to respect each other's skills and experience. If it is about music the carpenter should be willing to listen to the musician, if it is about building a violin the musician should be willing to listen to the carpenter.

To trust the community to establish who has a better level of validity is not only not practical, it is dangerous. It is as if we are saying "if so many people see this as the truth, then it must have some point of value". Or worse "then it must be true". These are fallacies. It may work on a smaller scale, like when your neighbour would say; "you should go to this butcher, he is really good and cheap too". But it does not work as a basic principle. We see this all too often in politics, when we vote for a person because we get the impression from everyone that he is the best choice, while we never take time to learn about their real views and argumentation. Worst case scenario; Germany, 1930's.

Thank you for these words; "be excellent to each other", they are beautiful!

Gassho,

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 01:11 PM   #502
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 01:17 PM   #503
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law



Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #504
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Everyone on this forum has an equal right to post and comment on any thread. It is up to the reader to determine how much weight to give other peoples' posts. The idea that certain people should sit back and not post on certain subjects while their "betters" carry on lofty conversations reminds me of Saurman's dialog with Gandalf from The Two Towers by J. R. R. Tolkien:

"Saruman paused... 'Are we not both members of a high and ancient order, most excellent in Middle-earth?... Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! Let them wait on our decisions!'".

 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:02 PM   #505
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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You blend three very distinct ideas into one. First, yes, this is a public forum. No disagreement there.

However, 2 and 3 are not to be confused or combined. First, some people are immenently more qualified to discuss certain subjects than others. For instance, if Graham Christian who has very little ability to read, write, or translate Japanese start telling Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li that their translations are wrong ... well, you might as well say the Earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and the sky is neon green with purple polka dots. Peter and Chris are extremely more qualified and their words are well more valid in discussing Japanese translations than either Graham or me.

If you're supposed to sit in a Space Shuttle to go to the space station, who do you want talking and working out the details? Jay Leno or NASA Engineers?

Doesn't matter how Jay Leno formulates his arguments or what he says, if you listen to him, you'll either never get there or die trying. NASA Engineers have an excellent track record. Not every opinion is true or valid. Not every opinion should be listened to.

Finally (your third point), disavowing the principles of conduct in a dialogue ... that goes both ways. If some soke grandmaster of DimMak ryu shows up and he has almost no background in aikido except glancing at forums and reading some books comes on here telling everyone what Morihei Ueshiba really meant ... those people who defend this "soke" have violated and disavowed the principles of conduct in a dialogue.
I am not really sure what your point is here?

This is only about a practical structure for making us able to come to an understanding or an exchange of ideas in a conversation, in a discourse.

You say you accept the argument that this is a public forum. Yet you dismiss the consequences?

I really do not understand what your second point is. I do not know Peter Goldsbury in person, as far as I know he is a graecus. My knowledge of greek is very limited. But over the years I have studied the (translated) works of Plato quite a bit and a long time ago I followed lectures by a wellknown Dutch professor in classical philosophy. I assure you that if the occassion would rise, him and I might have an interesting conversation on for instance furutama. No doubt that he is far more knowledgeable then me and can say much more on the subject then I. Some of the arguments that I would come up with could very well be succesfully challenged by him.

And what is exactly the problem with that?

It seems to me that that only proves my point; in a proper dialogue you create the possibility to exchange ideas or to learn something or in a dialectic way, come to a new conclusion.

But because Peter Goldsbury is more knowledgeable in greek or classical philosophy then me I would not be allowed to express an opinion on Plato, ask questions or come up with a counterargument (valid or non-valid)? Is that your point?

We are not in a space shuttle. We are not aboard a ship. We are not in an operating theatre. And we are not in a dojo either. The rules of engagement that I mention are about a conversation, a dialogue! Or a discourse in writing.
What you are talking about is a situation where you need a person of authority, an authority that is well established before the intended action.
I am talking about a situation during the action (a dialogue) where the authority of a person is shown by the arguments.

How is your third point a counter-argument? I do not follow this.

All the best,

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:05 PM   #506
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Everyone on this forum has an equal right to post and comment on any thread. It is up to the reader to determine how much weight to give other peoples' posts. The idea that certain people should sit back and not post on certain subjects while their "betters" carry on lofty conversations reminds me of Saurman's dialog with Gandalf from The Two Towers by J. R. R. Tolkien:

"Saruman paused... 'Are we not both members of a high and ancient order, most excellent in Middle-earth?... Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! Let them wait on our decisions!'".
First, it is not a right at all. It is a privilege. Secondly, while a public forum, it still falls under certain rules, so again, there is no right to post, let alone an equal right. It's like saying just because there are public roads, every single human being has a right to drive on them.

And while in the scope of the public forum, people *can* post, it is not equivalent that all people posting have valid opinions, theories, or logic.

How about quoting the US Constitution? It's been around longer than Tolkein, has more weight, better men behind its creation, and is founded upon reality rather than fantasy. See paragraph on opinions above.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:10 PM   #507
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.
Funny.. I was just wondering this morning when it'd show up in here

Yahhh...

Anywho, I'm not sure if I understand Tom correctly here, but the point I'm getting is that because all people are equal and all people have equal right to voice their opinions, etc., a geneticist has an equally valid opinion when it comes to human reproduction, as a stork theorist? Am I correct in assuming this?

Last edited by TimB99 : 06-18-2012 at 02:18 PM.

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:12 PM   #508
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
One person my be an excellent musician while the other person is a skilled carpenter. They are not equal, yet should be able to respect each other's skills and experience. If it is about music the carpenter should be willing to listen to the musician, if it is about building a violin the musician should be willing to listen to the carpenter.

Gassho,

Tom
My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:18 PM   #509
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Everyone has an equal right to post and it's privilege to read. The forum is a road and we are all in our cars.

Some get a bit of road rage though as they think they own the road

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:29 PM   #510
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
First, it is not a right at all. It is a privilege.
Registering for an account gives you, me or anyone else the right to post.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Secondly, while a public forum, it still falls under certain rules, so again, there is no right to post, let alone an equal right. It's like saying just because there are public roads, every single human being has a right to drive on them.
I'd like to read the rules but cannot find a link to where they're written down. Can you provide me with one?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
And while in the scope of the public forum, people *can* post, it is not equivalent that all people posting have valid opinions, theories, or logic.
I was not addressing that issue. Other than to say it's up to the reader to decide. I don't need you or anyone else deciding for me.

Ron

 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:30 PM   #511
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Everyone has an equal right to post and it's privilege to read. The forum is a road and we are all in our cars.

Some get a bit of road rage though as they think they own the road

Peace.G.
It is easy to avoid you on the forum - I would hate to meet you on the road, if you drive?

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #512
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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It is easy to avoid you on the forum - I would hate to meet you on the road, if you drive?

Henry Ellis
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http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Funny how I keep bumping into you on this road Meet me on the road? What would you do? You're in the car and I am on the zebra crossing......

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:07 PM   #513
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.
Mathew and Chris, avoiding like the plague any reference to Nazi Germany, I would say that I look for that spark of inspiration from everywhere - even a novice at my projects. That is the essence of "surrender" and in surrender, one finds inspiration flooding down from the heavens.

Thus says Rumi, "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment."

If experts determine what is acceptable without such surrender and openness, we have as Tom suggests, a model that is closed. The Inquisition has been referenced in this thread already. Who's position would you have sided with? The Catholic Church or Copernicus. Your above arguments suggest the former.

Our greatest challenge in groups is to balance the wisdom of the group while remaining open to newness that can strike like lightening or dance about your shoulder like a butterfly. Horton heard the who, but no one else did.

Mass insanity seems very sane when you are in the midst of it. I, for one, refuse to drink fluoride in my water or use it in my toothpaste. And I am especially perplexed why we would get this fluoride from China... The government authorities and the masses seem like blind Zombies to me. The church
authorities were also blind to any idea of the earth being round also.

It takes faith in one's inner voice and much courage to go against the herd. It takes surrender to listen deeply to all voices, knowing that inspiration is just begging to lite up one's creativity.

Blessings,

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:13 PM   #514
Hellis
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
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Funny how I keep bumping into you on this road Meet me on the road? What would you do? You're in the car and I am on the zebra crossing......

Peace.G.
Graham

If it was dark and I thought I just had a chance of getting away with it, I would have to go for it, no ill feeling

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:20 PM   #515
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark
Depending on the nature of the forum, I would be one of the people who thinks a 6 year old should be able to do so. I don't believe in censoring anyone, no matter how ignorant. The best we can do in a forum like this is to offer a counterpoint that is, hopefully, reasonable and eloquent enough to stand on its own; which demonstrates the weaknesses of said 6 year old's understanding. If people cannot tell the difference, they should bear in mind the variety of opinions, conduct their own process of study, and learn enough so that they can.
You say not all opinions should be listened to. I fervently disagree except where the rules established by those who own the forum would preclude it. Organizations get to determine criteria for who gets to be an authority, public spaces not so much. If Jun ever decides to impose his will in this regard that is his right, not yours. Hence, within the context of this "space," which is the one we're talking about, I think we all get to voice our opinions (even relatively ignorant fools like me...and I do fit that description) until deemed too uncivil by the measure of the moderator.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #516
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

If it was dark and I thought I just had a chance of getting away with it, I would have to go for it, no ill feeling

Henry Ellis
Co-author -Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Henry, you may go for it but alas I'm an expert at tyre-sabaki and if you're in a van I'm also good at vandori. Watch out for the little old lady though.......

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #517
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mathew and Chris, avoiding like the plague any reference to Nazi Germany, I would say that I look for that spark of inspiration from everywhere - even a novice at my projects.
Sure, I have never, anywhere, said otherwise - so I don't quite see your point...

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:42 PM   #518
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Sure, I have never, anywhere, said otherwise - so I don't quite see your point...

Best,

Chris
Only that inspiration can come from anywhere. Even that six year old. It may or may not come within the data or logic of his argument. It may come from from such as well.

That is why I say, "buy bewilderment". I Iive in awe most all of the time. I have been inspired by literally everyone on this thread. A word, an attitude. A conflict. A humility or an aggression have opened their mystery to me while reading these texts. Inspiration comes and I have great joy.

Time to go beyond ideas of right and wrong. While some say the glass is half full and others say it is half empty. I choose to drink it up with pleasure.

If you feel the same way, say hooray!

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #519
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Henry, you may go for it but alas I'm an expert at tyre-sabaki and if you're in a van I'm also good at vandori. Watch out for the little old lady though.......

Peace.G.
Graham

You may be dressed in disguise as a little old lady, but that woolie rainbow coloured hat will be a dead give-away

Henry Ellis
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #520
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
That's it, all done here. Godwin's law.
Well, that in itself is a good counter-argument.

The problem is of course that it is such a major event in history, where so many people were involved as perpetrator or as victim, where so many people made the wrong choices, where so many of our till then accepted values and truths were lost and where the pain of that period can still be felt that if one does not tread carefully your are bound to come to some reference to it.
And true enough when such a reference comes up too often the argument looses much of is strength.

But it is at the same time difficult to avoid the number ten if you adding up 5+3+2.

When you do not accept the fact that people are all equal, that in a discussion each person has an equal level of validity, when you start saying things like "it is a modern problem that we no longer believe in elites" and "when lots of trustworthy people trust someone...", then in what direction do you think the discussion is going?

While I agree that references to the 1930's have been used everywhere ad nauseam, you cannot always escape the argument by simply refering to Godwin's Law.
Besides that I have given you valid answers to all your arguments. Leaving by refering to Godwin's Law is the easy way out.

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #521
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
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Funny.. I was just wondering this morning when it'd show up in here

Yahhh...

Anywho, I'm not sure if I understand Tom correctly here, but the point I'm getting is that because all people are equal and all people have equal right to voice their opinions, etc., a geneticist has an equally valid opinion when it comes to human reproduction, as a stork theorist? Am I correct in assuming this?
No, you are wrong. That is a completely wrong way of reasoning.

And it does not come even close to what I was explaining.

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:21 PM   #522
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

"Taking one's marbles and going home" is not true dialogue. It reek's of elementary school level emotional reactivity.

So does saying such things and then not following through with silence. Part of "clarity" is clarity of speech, Sans the emotional reactivity. Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. Honor others with your best speech and let the forum evaluate it, receive it or reject it. Either way, it is your's. You need no group to validate you. Your clarity and logic is your validation. Give your best and stand on it's merit.

Chris
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:25 PM   #523
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My point is that if you get a 6 year old to come into this forum, who has never been a carptenter, never been a musician, and only read 1st grade level books about the subjects, and starts telling the musician and the carpenter how to do their jobs, then according to many, that 6 year old should be able to do such. I'm saying it would not be allowed in person, why should it be allowed here? Not all opinions are valid, nor should all opinions be listened to. Just because some chant the chants, sing the songs, and put on the costumes, it does not equate to having knowledge or having skill or having valid opinions.

Mark
Well at least you are getting warmer. I completely agree; not all opinions are valid. And for sure, not all opinions should be listened to. And as far as chanting the chant etc, you are right it does not equate to having skill or valid opinions.

There is no discussion there. I agree, you are right!

But it is not the point that I was trying to get across.

Tom
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:43 PM   #524
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Sorry, Tom, but the Nazis were such outliers that using them as a parallel to almost anything is simply hysteria. It short-circuits any rational argument. That's the point Godwin was making. Let's see, AikiWeb is like Nazi Germany how?

The problem I have with all these arguments is that they confuse what people may do with what it is wise to do. Yes, you have every right, using the term colloquially, to show up here and spout off on subjects you know nothing about. People have been known to do that. And everyone else has the right to tell you what a fool you're making of yourself. If that doesn't make you happy, consider that you're the one who let yourself in for it.

As for the role of expertise... if we were talking mathematics, and kept insisting that the PhD mathematicians repeatedly walk novices through basic algebra, they'd have some right to be annoyed. And that's in a theoretical realm, where such an online review is possible.

Our topic is not entirely amenable to rational analysis, which is, Tom, where your argument breaks down. Most of what we're talking about can only be worked out on the mat. And even where it's not an IHTBF problem, much of it is simply about experience. If I'm told weightlifting is going to make my MA less effective, what rational basis am I going to argue from?

So yeah, argument and debate is fun. But when the chips are down, what really matters is who's got the goods--and who's willing to teach it. There's the folks I respect, and the folks who have the respect of the folks I respect. There are folks who respect the folks I respect, which indicates good taste and possibly that they are trying to achieve something similar in their abilities. And then there are a few who don't fit into that network but sound like rational people, so I'm inclined to consider their opinions seriously until given a reason not to.

All very messy and irrational. But in the end, that's what a community is.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:47 PM   #525
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
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Time to go beyond ideas of right and wrong. While some say the glass is half full and others say it is half empty. I choose to drink it up with pleasure.

If you feel the same way, say hooray!

Chris
Huzzah! ...oops...hooray! This isn't to say I believe we shouldn't include a sense of right and wrong. Testing what we know necessitates some sense of them; here where we cannot test what we know except in the measure of logical appearances, it's not as important.
Where appropriate, let everyone interact. At the least, it gives us familiarity with those ill informed opinions so we can, hopefully, address them better down the line.
We can't always control what others think or do, but I'd rather we invite folks into the light where we can openly discuss and offer counterpoint than to push them away where we have absolutely no ability to interact. In a place like this, interaction is the point, as I see it; not being right or wrong.

Gambarimashyo!
 

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