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Old 06-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #1
TheMiddleRoad
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What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Today it is seeming that there is these discussions about building the body to be greatest Aiki body. However the Aikido is known as a spiritual art leading to enlightenment. O Sensei talking about the chinkon kishin, and the purifying with the misogi. More that Aikido is Misogi.

When I think of the Buddha or Jesus, Gandhi and the other great spiritual leaders, I don't see the great martial artists brandishing great aiki body. When I think of all the great martial artists of the aiki body, who can we say is the leader of a spiritual art. I only know the O sensei. Was there others, too?

So question really becomes

Can it be that the perfecting of great waza is mere but a ruse, a stepping stone to the abandonment of waza altogether as a method of spiritual enlightenment? Didn't there be many great masters that decide, "well now it is time for the mastering the Cha-do, Ikebana-do and Shodo?

is anyone on the aikiweb thinking like this way, too?
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:56 PM   #2
Chris Li
 
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Frederick Merrick wrote: View Post
Today it is seeming that there is these discussions about building the body to be greatest Aiki body. However the Aikido is known as a spiritual art leading to enlightenment. O Sensei talking about the chinkon kishin, and the purifying with the misogi. More that Aikido is Misogi.
Misogi and chinkon kishin are intimately connected with building an Aiki body - had anybody said differently?

Quote:
Frederick Merrick wrote: View Post
When I think of the Buddha or Jesus, Gandhi and the other great spiritual leaders, I don't see the great martial artists brandishing great aiki body. When I think of all the great martial artists of the aiki body, who can we say is the leader of a spiritual art. I only know the O sensei. Was there others, too?

So question really becomes

Can it be that the perfecting of great waza is mere but a ruse, a stepping stone to the abandonment of waza altogether as a method of spiritual enlightenment? Didn't there be many great masters that decide, "well now it is time for the mastering the Cha-do, Ikebana-do and Shodo?

is anyone on the aikiweb thinking like this way, too?
Did Morihei Ueshiba abandon martial training for tea and calligraphy, or was he still training at the end?

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-13-2012, 08:04 PM   #3
Chris Li
 
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

I wanted to add - there's no reason to believe that the "Aiki body" type training is any less spiritual than anything else.

If you want to go down that route I would argue that it may actually be more "spiritual" (please let's not get sidetracked on a discussion of what "spiritual" means...) than conventional practice since this is the route that Ueshiba went to link his technical and spiritual training (and one doesn't preclude the other - actually, both are essential, IMO). He actually says something to that effect at one point in "Takemusu Aiki".

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-13-2012, 09:17 PM   #4
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Fredrick,

Would Ta Mo (bodhidarma) count? Perhaps the ascended masters of Wuwei mountain? How about Fun Do Duk, Bak Mei, Jee Shin Shim Shee, Mew Hing and Ng Moi who survived the destruction of the Fukien Shaolin Temple? Perhaps in Japan would you consider Takuan? Perhaps the Monks who developed Sorinji Ryu? Perhaps Cuchulain of Celtic fame? Perhaps Joshua, David or Sampson of Hebrew fame? nimrod? Little monk Nupchen in Tibet? Black Elk and Crazy Horse of the Lakota? How about Quanah Parker of the Cherokee?

I do not know much about Oomote-kyo. But wasn't Onisaburo Deguchi a shamanic figure? Did Ueshiba take up a shamanic practice as well as a theology of universal love? Again, I have not studied Aikido's founder that thoroughly, preferring mainly to practice the movements. But in my reading, it seems that Ueshiba had a major mystical or shamanic conversion that transcended
doing waza and internal nei gung practices.

I certainly look forward to hearing from some of the experts on this matter.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-13-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:21 PM   #5
davoravo
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Frederick Merrick wrote: View Post
Today it is seeming that there is these discussions about building the body to be greatest Aiki body. However the Aikido is known as a spiritual art leading to enlightenment. O Sensei talking about the chinkon kishin, and the purifying with the misogi. More that Aikido is Misogi.
"Aikido" is misogi or "Aiki" is misogi? Is Aikido (the martial art Ueshiba taught to his students) a path to becoming interested in practising Aiki (separate esoteric ki practices)?

David McNamara
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Old 06-14-2012, 03:31 AM   #6
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Fredrick,

Would Ta Mo (bodhidarma) count? Perhaps the ascended masters of Wuwei mountain? How about Fun Do Duk, Bak Mei, Jee Shin Shim Shee, Mew Hing and Ng Moi who survived the destruction of the Fukien Shaolin Temple? Perhaps in Japan would you consider Takuan? Perhaps the Monks who developed Sorinji Ryu? Perhaps Cuchulain of Celtic fame? Perhaps Joshua, David or Sampson of Hebrew fame? nimrod? Little monk Nupchen in Tibet? Black Elk and Crazy Horse of the Lakota? How about Quanah Parker of the Cherokee?

I do not know much about Oomote-kyo. But wasn't Onisaburo Deguchi a shamanic figure? Did Ueshiba take up a shamanic practice as well as a theology of universal love? Again, I have not studied Aikido's founder that thoroughly, preferring mainly to practice the movements. But in my reading, it seems that Ueshiba had a major mystical or shamanic conversion that transcended
doing waza and internal nei gung practices.

I certainly look forward to hearing from some of the experts on this matter.

Regards,

Chris
Chris,
Not to forget Siddharta Gautama himself, who as a prince was taught martial arts from a young age. And perhaps the best example; Arjuna in the Mahabharata.
Gassho,
Tom
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:24 AM   #7
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Chris,
Not to forget Siddharta Gautama himself, who as a prince was taught martial arts from a young age. And perhaps the best example; Arjuna in the Mahabharata.
Gassho,
Tom
Thank you.
Though I do wonder if siddharta fit the criteria above. Did he continue to train in martial skills until he died?

I intentionally left Arjuna out because in an earlier post, when I mentioned him, I felt some folks doubted he was an historical figure. I believe he was. But I cannot prove it.

Mohammed and Salahudin would be great additions to my earlier list of candidates.

Gassho,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-14-2012 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:09 AM   #8
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Thank you.
Though I do wonder if siddharta fit the criteria above. Did he continue to train in martial skills until he died?

I intentionally left Arjuna out because in an earlier post, when I mentioned him, I felt some folks doubted he was an historical figure. I believe he was. But I cannot prove it.

Mohammed and Salahudin would be great additions to my earlier list of candidates.

Gassho,

Chris
True, Buddha might not fit those criteria. Does Takuan Soho?

I was not aware about you mentioning Arjuna in another thread. But I am aware of the discussions by some historians whether he was a historical figure. The arguments they use are similar to the discussions on whether Buddha, Jezus, Cuchulain, Arthur Pendragon (to name just a few) where historical figures or not.

But I would still consider them worthy names to add to your list.

Gassho,

Tom
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:11 AM   #9
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

And not to forget Vercingetourix!

Tom
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:28 PM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Tom,

I like them all as candidates. I find myself hesitating as this can be an argumentative bunch of folks at times. But, I sense, not so with you. So I offer you this meal to feast on:

A mouse and a frog meet every morning on the river bank.
They sit on the ground and talk.

Each morning, the second they see each other,
they open easily, telling stories and dreams and secrets,
empty of any fear or suspicious holding back.

To watch and listen to those two
is to understand how, as it's written,
sometimes when two beings come together,
Christ becomes visible.

Source: The Essential Rumi, translated by Coleman Barks
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:24 PM   #11
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Tom,

I like them all as candidates. I find myself hesitating as this can be an argumentative bunch of folks at times. But, I sense, not so with you. So I offer you this meal to feast on:

A mouse and a frog meet every morning on the river bank.
They sit on the ground and talk.

Each morning, the second they see each other,
they open easily, telling stories and dreams and secrets,
empty of any fear or suspicious holding back.

To watch and listen to those two
is to understand how, as it's written,
sometimes when two beings come together,
Christ becomes visible.

Source: The Essential Rumi, translated by Coleman Barks
Chris,
That I would call sincere Aikido!
Thanks!
Tom
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:42 PM   #12
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Chris,
That I would call sincere Aikido!
Thanks!
Tom
Me too.
It is also the real way of the warrior.

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'
doesn't make any sense.

Rumi (again Coleman Barks)

Be well,

Chris
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:49 AM   #13
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

Perhaps Joshua, David or Sampson of Hebrew fame? nimrod?
I am unfamiliar with many of the others in your list so cannot comment, but these three I am very familiar with and would like to express my view. I would not call these three men 'enlightened' beings in the pan-Asian understanding of the term. All three men were formidable warriors in their own right, but the concept of 'enlightenment' is foreign to the Hebraic faith. David received God's anointing and the Spirit of God came upon David (1 Samuel 16:13). In ancient Israel the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit of the New Testament) only imbued certain individuals - namely judges, kings and prophets - for their specific purposes or offices. However, these men were also deeply flawed. David famously committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband Uriah killed to cover up the adultery. Samson was a Nazirite, which meant he had to uphold strict moral codes of piety and yet he defiled himself by eating out of a carcus of a dead lion, slept with prostitutes and foolishly was manipulated by Delilah a Philistine woman into shaving his head, prohibited as a Nazirite.

David was a prolific psalmist and wrote many songs and poems found in the book of Psalms. These psalms prove David was a deeply spiritual man but his source of insight was God's revelation: the revelation of Creation, the deliverance of Israel from Egypt, God's Law (Torah) and God's mercy in acceptance of repentence.

Joshua is an interesting case - he is a foreshadow of Jesus, known in Christian theology as typology. Joshua pre-figures Jesus as Israel's true leader and messiah. Joshua and Jesus in Hebrew have the same root meaning 'God saves' and contains the Hebrew characters for YHWH, the name of God. Jesus did not come in His first incarnation as a warrior-king, though many people misunderstand Jesus as a pacifist. Jesus' purpose was to save humanity from their sin (as His name indicates) by dying on the cross.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:29 AM   #14
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

"Didn't there be many great masters that decide, "well now it is time for the mastering the Cha-do, Ikebana-do and Shodo?"

Miyamoto Musashi is probably a good example...after famously learning the way of the sword he became known for quality artwork, sculptures and calligraphy.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:46 AM   #15
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

Quote:
Lee Price wrote: View Post
"Didn't there be many great masters that decide, "well now it is time for the mastering the Cha-do, Ikebana-do and Shodo?"

Miyamoto Musashi is probably a good example...after famously learning the way of the sword he became known for quality artwork, sculptures and calligraphy.
For me Musashi is the archetypal enlightened martial artist - undefeated, master swordsman who used his way of the sword(s) to find a spiritual path of enlightenment. His book of 5 Rings is evidence of the great spiritual insights he achieved and how his two sword art was more than just a killing art.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:05 AM   #16
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
For me Musashi is the archetypal enlightened martial artist - undefeated, master swordsman who used his way of the sword(s) to find a spiritual path of enlightenment. His book of 5 Rings is evidence of the great spiritual insights he achieved and how his two sword art was more than just a killing art.
i thought Musashi was a psychopath who was hellbent on winning. lets face it, if this was the modern day, he would be in solitary confinement until the end of his day. he didn't take up other stuffs until he couldn't find a worthy opponent; in another word, he was bored out of his skull so he took up other stuffs to keep himself occupied.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:25 AM   #17
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Re: What enlightened beings were known as GREAT martial artists

About Joshua, this is how it went down in Jericho under his command:

Quote:
6:21
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

6:24
And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the lord.

Book of Joshua, KJV
So a fierce and murderous tribal general yes, enlightened - no.

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