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Old 06-09-2012, 12:35 AM   #1
Chris Parkerson
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Teachings and Trajectories

From my study of social movements i have noticed a consistent challenge befalls those that begin in one region and end up with a global following, the original experience of a great teacher, orator, or activist is bound by history, language and regional mores.

Once the movement goes global, words, teachings and practices are incorporated into other cultural mores and gestalts. Once several generations pass, historical mindsets can become anachronistic or even irrelevant.

This certainly was the experience of many of the teachings of The Pentateuch (Old Testament) and the teachings of the early Christian church. This is why modern Theologians and Rabbis use the word "Trajectory". They say we must take the intent of the original words and put them into modern or specific social contexts.

My questions are two:

1) is this a valuable method for guiding the growth of Aikido?
2) if so....or if not; Why?

Peace,

Chris
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:14 AM   #2
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Using historical-critical methods like we do when trying to understand texts like the Pentateuch or of the early Christian church, we come to know that the given texts of aikidō describe certain ways of organizing and moving the body. Plus certain ways to interact with another body / other bodies by organizing and moving/using the body.

This bodywork does not change through history.
Worldview does. Psychological mindsets do. Words, teachings, beliefs, and even ways to feel and to perceive the world are contextual. The human body is not.

The real chalenge of the hermeneutics of aikidō is to get beyond an understanding of those texts that leads us to believe they would talk about abstract spiritual or philosophical issues instead of using the body in a certain way.

This is a challenge because it was the supposed mindset that made aikidō popular around the world. And not the particular way of organizing one's body and interacting with other bodies.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:46 AM   #3
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Using historical-critical methods like we do when trying to understand texts like the Pentateuch or of the early Christian church, we come to know that the given texts of aikidō describe certain ways of organizing and moving the body. Plus certain ways to interact with another body / other bodies by organizing and moving/using the body.

This bodywork does not change through history.
Worldview does. Psychological mindsets do. Words, teachings, beliefs, and even ways to feel and to perceive the world are contextual. The human body is not.

The real chalenge of the hermeneutics of aikidō is to get beyond an understanding of those texts that leads us to believe they would talk about abstract spiritual or philosophical issues instead of using the body in a certain way.

This is a challenge because it was the supposed mindset that made aikidō popular around the world. And not the particular way of organizing one's body and interacting with other bodies.
I do understand your position. What intrigues me is the latter part you mentioned.
Is there a specific idea of "Budo" and of "Spirituality" that is essential for teaching the "true meaning" and "experience" of Aikido?

Regards,

Chris
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:36 AM   #4
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
The real chalenge of the hermeneutics of aikidō is to get beyond an understanding of those texts that leads us to believe they would talk about abstract spiritual or philosophical issues instead of using the body in a certain way.
Consider "as well as" in place of "instead of."
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:36 AM   #5
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I do understand your position. What intrigues me is the latter part you mentioned.
Is there a specific idea of "Budo" and of "Spirituality" that is essential for teaching the "true meaning" and "experience" of Aikido?

Regards,

Chris
Chris
All of this reminds me of a program I watched on TV some years back talking about cooking and food in New Orleans....... They were talking to the vared kinds of foods that could be found in the area, an amazing variety........ One of the family members of a restaurant that specialized in French-Creole based food opened a new restaurant across the river that was to be pure French in form and taste. They brought a chief from France and off they went. After a few years the chief when back to France on a visit.....few folks recognized his cooking.....Creole spices and other local adaptations had slide into his food.....even without trying.....

Nothing stays the same...even the ingredients change from location to location even with the same names. Maybe we give honor to the historical and check the effectiveness of the now......

Gary
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:48 AM   #6
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
All of this reminds me of a program I watched on TV some years back talking about cooking and food in New Orleans....... They were talking to the vared kinds of foods that could be found in the area, an amazing variety........ One of the family members of a restaurant that specialized in French-Creole based food opened a new restaurant across the river that was to be pure French in form and taste. They brought a chief from France and off they went. After a few years the chief when back to France on a visit.....few folks recognized his cooking.....Creole spices and other local adaptations had slide into his food.....even without trying.....

Nothing stays the same...even the ingredients change from location to location even with the same names. Maybe we give honor to the historical and check the effectiveness of the now......

Gary
I resonate with your analogy and position, being from S. Texas, I cannot believe Ohio Mexican
restaurants use American Cheese and other aberrations in my favorite traditional dishes.

So what makes up the core curriculum of a thing? Is a specific understanding of Budo or spirituality necessary to uphold the essential core of Aikido?
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:39 AM   #7
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Consider "as well as" in place of "instead of."
Seconded.

Hi Carsten, I am not sure what you intended, but IMHO it would be throwing out the baby with the bath water to reduce Ueshiba's discourses to nothing but a description of a body method. Which they sure were as well.

I also think there is a limit to critical exegesis when it comes to the spirituality and mysticism of the new religious movements of Ueshibas time. It's a bit like critical analysis of Rudolf Steiners thought, who I personally sometimes like to compare with Omoto Kyo just for the sake of an exercise closer to home: you find all sorts of familiar cultural patterns, but they tend to meander and intermingle in a strange sort of way that, to me, somehow cannot explain fully what he was (apparently) about.

I, for one, am still willing to believe in the seemingly outdated position Morihei Ueshiba just felt at one with the universe. In his cultural contex, of course. It's what mystics do, after all.

Gary said:
Quote:
Nothing stays the same...even the ingredients change from location to location even with the same names. Maybe we give honor to the historical and check the effectiveness of the now......
That to me is the main ingredient missing in a lot of current debates on aikido. Especially the spiritual ones.

Have a great day!

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 06-09-2012 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Added all sorts of stuff
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:22 AM   #8
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Consider "as well as" in place of "instead of."
Thank you!

It is my exerience that for a very long time we where made to believe that the texts of Ueshiba are talking about spiritual or philosophical issues instead about using the body in a certain way.

That Ueshibas texts talk aswell about spirituality as about certain body work / training methods is something we realize now.
This "aswell as" was not given to us by most of our teachers. Some did. But most did not. The "Tradition of aikidō", the "Dogma" did not.

For Ueshiba himself both aspect where intertwined. For sure! But in a way that you cannot take one without the other, I think. His talking about heaven and earth tells us something about his worldview, but is at the same time something you can practice on the tatami. Two in one. Don't you think so?

(Like in daoistic texts: The body is the tool to "do" spirituality. Aligning the body, breathing, moving in certain ways is good for health, helps to defend against attackers and is a way to become one with nature/universe. This is completely different from view of spirituality that is charcterized by religions based on revelation like Christianity.)

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Is a specific understanding of Budo or spirituality necessary to uphold the essential core of Aikido?
I only practice aikidō. But I am a "Neighbour" of some other budō. And a koryū teacher signed a book for me: "True aikidō-spirit is true budō-spirit." I think there is "only one budō" and aikidō does not represent a specific understanding of budō that would differentiate it from other budō.

I don't dare to write about spirituality because I learned that it is understood in a different way in the English language from how we use this term in German (refers to religion, beliefs, being connected to the divine world ...).
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:22 PM   #9
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Carsten,

You are so right about how many Americans can reduce spirituality to a set of "beliefs".
And we often have fallen prey to separating the body from mind in the process.

But isn't using the words "one with heaven and earth" a symbolic form of an experience that may or may not be common to the practitioner? What does it mean other than the person experiencing it can blend and avoid while throwing another person? In this connection, from your perspective, is there some timeless clarity that remains present?if so, how does this clarity translate into daily decision making and living?

How is compassion understood and expressed in such a state of being?

With gratitude,

Chris
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:45 PM   #10
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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... the words "one with heaven and earth" a symbolic form of an experience ... What does it mean other than the person experiencing it can blend and avoid while throwing another person?
Why do you think harmony of heaven and earth is about "blending and avoiding while throwing"?
This seems to be evident to you? To me it is not.

Why don't you think it is about uniting the lower and the upper danitian using "internal alchemy"?
Why don't you think it is about "hanging from heaven" and "rooting in earth"?
Why don't you think it is about connecting with he ki of heaven and the ki of earth?
Why don't you think it is about just opening and closing the spine?
...
To me these aspects and related phenomenons seem much more evident when thinking about harmony of heaven and earth.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:18 PM   #11
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Why do you think harmony of heaven and earth is about "blending and avoiding while throwing"?
This seems to be evident to you? To me it is not.

Why don't you think it is about uniting the lower and the upper danitian using "internal alchemy"?
Why don't you think it is about "hanging from heaven" and "rooting in earth"?
Why don't you think it is about connecting with he ki of heaven and the ki of earth?
Why don't you think it is about just opening and closing the spine?
...
To me these aspects and related phenomenons seem much more evident when thinking about harmony of heaven and earth.
Great points. I have practiced Chi gung since the 1970's. I have also competed in dynamic forms
of Tai Chi push hands at the Arnold Challenge. My last bouts when I was 55 years old, competing
against 20 and 30 year olds.

If your above definition is the foundation of Aikido, how long have these concepts been at the
forefront iin the teaching? Were they hidden? Only taught to one or two students? I have observed and began practice of aikido back in 1974 when Fred Levre was using our dojo in Ocean Beach, Ca.

Perhaps this is part of my original question. Teaching takes on many trajectories. Fred demonstrated a strong center of gravity. If he was practicing a form of internal nei gung, he kept silent about it.

But other guests at our dojo taught such things back then. The Aikido class didn't seem to join us during these seminars. I am not sure if this absence was normal back in the 1970's, but I know our Martial ecumenism was cutting edge for it's time.

Peace,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 06-10-2012 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:29 PM   #12
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Nothing stays the same...even the ingredients change from location to location even with the same names. Maybe we give honor to the historical and check the effectiveness of the now......

Gary
Gary and Carsten,

I just got home from 3 months of travel and apologize if my last two posts were muddled. They were written with little sleep and in airports.

I agree with Gary. Everything changes. That is the way of the Tao. Even our experience of our body has changed throughout history. We have placed many filters upon our senses. This change is observed quite colorfully in David Abram's "Spell of the Sensuous". In this study of ancient and modern language, Abrams ponders the violent disconnection of our minds from our bodies and from the natural world.

I am pretty convinced that many of the nei gung practices occurred naturally when people walked dirt trails, slept under the moon and ate directly from the earth or the point of their spear. And in a post Cartesian world, how we both experience and describe such connections between heaven and earth, if we can find them, would also be very different. Our computers are using a software whose language is not really built within the natural connectivity.

I also suggest, as does David Abrams, that Shamanistic magic was also a natural effect of both the earlier world view and its connection of the body with all that is within heaven and earth. I suggest that such effects like shooting "upside down arrows" from one's African hut, could kill European hunters in their sleep as Malidoma Some recounts about his grandfather in "Of Water and The Spirit". I bet most modern Cartesian minds filter such an idea right out of their experience just hearing of it.

I know a man who makes an amazing living using phurbas. But his effects only come from 40 years of practicing Bon and opening up to a premodern mindset.

I guess, what I am challenging is Carsten's idea that the body's relation to heaven and earth does not change. and, by extension, it can also be difficult to access fully an ancient teaching and create trajectories that are as deep as the ones that were originally there sans all the filters. I suspect even my Bon buddy would say his Shamanistic skills cannot match that of the Tibetan shaman who lives in a cave.

Regards,

Chris
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:10 PM   #13
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
I also think there is a limit to critical exegesis when it comes to the spirituality and mysticism of the new religious movements of Ueshibas time. ... you find all sorts of familiar cultural patterns, but they tend to meander and intermingle in a strange sort of way that, to me, somehow cannot explain fully what he was (apparently) about.
This is exactly the same problem when looking at texts like the gospel of John or other christian texts. It is only that generations of scholars have done their work so we know more about it and have a broad discussion about the different issues.
And every theologican learns hebrew, greek, latin. We study history. We do linguistics. ... We learn how to study the old texts.

When it comes to the thoughts of Ueshiba first we have no clear control text. Most people are not able to read or speak the original language, i.e. Japanese. The historical knowledge meagre. And so on. Most of us are just dilletantes.

So it is not methodological problem, but a problem of our scholarship. I think.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:29 PM   #14
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Carsten,

You sound like a trained textual critic.... It is refreshing.
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:00 PM   #15
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is exactly the same problem when looking at texts like the gospel of John or other christian texts. It is only that generations of scholars have done their work so we know more about it and have a broad discussion about the different issues.
And every theologican learns hebrew, greek, latin. We study history. We do linguistics. ... We learn how to study the old texts.

When it comes to the thoughts of Ueshiba first we have no clear control text. Most people are not able to read or speak the original language, i.e. Japanese. The historical knowledge meagre. And so on. Most of us are just dilletantes.

So it is not methodological problem, but a problem of our scholarship. I think.
Well, good points, not that I disagree - I just think it can be an advantage when the inspired person is not the author himself, but things got sort of simplified, for lack of a better term, by a generation or two in between before someone wrote them down ....
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:16 PM   #16
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Well, good points, not that I disagree - I just think it can be an advantage when the inspired person is not the author himself, but things got sort of simplified, for lack of a better term, by a generation or two in between before someone wrote them down ....
Definitely a different time and circumstance. The Gospels in the New Testament were written, not as biographies, as much as for non-Palestinians. In some places, it is possible to capture the actual words Jesus used and retrace exactly what he did.

With Ueshiba, his words are in print, though sometimes overly symbolic or clouded in meaning.

Here are some of my hermeneutical thoughts:

Neither should be taken out of context as an historical beginning point.
Both should be given space for self contradiction and idea-growth as their lives unfolded.
Both should be given space for personal presuppositions and prejudices.

Of greatest value, as far as "trajectory" is concerned, we should try to keep clear their original intentions and then apply them to today's environment. We should accept limitations. They were quite human. And use the intention with care as we further it when the original intent is limited in scope.

Regards,

Chris
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:36 AM   #17
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is exactly the same problem when looking at texts like the gospel of John or other christian texts. It is only that generations of scholars have done their work so we know more about it and have a broad discussion about the different issues.
And every theologican learns hebrew, greek, latin. We study history. We do linguistics. ... We learn how to study the old texts.

When it comes to the thoughts of Ueshiba first we have no clear control text. Most people are not able to read or speak the original language, i.e. Japanese. The historical knowledge meagre. And so on. Most of us are just dilletantes.

So it is not methodological problem, but a problem of our scholarship. I think.
It's not only a problem of language, it's also a problem of culture. To put it bluntly: Western People (US, EU) don't think in the same way as Eastern people do. This is the main reason why it's seemingly difficult to accurately translate the word "Aiki". Japanese is a language that's very context based (high-context) whereas English and other European languages are a lot more explicit: if we say "a", we mean "a" and not "b" or "c" or "d", depending on which context the word "a" occurs in.

If we, as Westeners, try to interpret O'Sensei's words, we will do so within a Western framework, ie. any interpretation will be subject to cultural bias. We will unconsciously project our values and ideas in our interpretation. The only people who would have been able to correctly interpret O'Sensei's texts are those who were close to him when he wrote those texts, because they lived in the same context as him.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:26 AM   #18
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
It's not only a problem of language, it's also a problem of culture. To put it bluntly: Western People (US, EU) don't think in the same way as Eastern people do. This is the main reason why it's seemingly difficult to accurately translate the word "Aiki". Japanese is a language that's very context based (high-context) whereas English and other European languages are a lot more explicit: if we say "a", we mean "a" and not "b" or "c" or "d", depending on which context the word "a" occurs in.

If we, as Westeners, try to interpret O'Sensei's words, we will do so within a Western framework, ie. any interpretation will be subject to cultural bias. We will unconsciously project our values and ideas in our interpretation. The only people who would have been able to correctly interpret O'Sensei's texts are those who were close to him when he wrote those texts, because they lived in the same context as him.
I could say much the same about any text from any culture - but I think that's more or less a cop out.

As Carsten noted, it's not uncommon to for texts from many different cultural contexts to be read and studied, and nobody questions whether or not it's possible to correctly interpret them.

Translation of the word "Aiki" is not all that difficult, although it requires a certain background - but that background is available to anybody, Japanese or not.

Agreement on the translation is, on the other hand, another matter.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-14-2012, 11:32 AM   #19
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I could say much the same about any text from any culture - but I think that's more or less a cop out.

As Carsten noted, it's not uncommon to for texts from many different cultural contexts to be read and studied, and nobody questions whether or not it's possible to correctly interpret them.

Translation of the word "Aiki" is not all that difficult, although it requires a certain background - but that background is available to anybody, Japanese or not.

Agreement on the translation is, on the other hand, another matter.

Best,

Chris
If anybody's interested here's some discussion of the definition of "Aiki". Before anybody goes nuts - no, it does not contain all implications of the word as ever used, it's just some general discussion.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-14-2012, 01:35 PM   #20
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If anybody's interested here's some discussion of the definition of "Aiki". Before anybody goes nuts - no, it does not contain all implications of the word as ever used, it's just some general discussion.

Best,

Chris
Thank you Chris.
The article was most enlightening.

The Kosho Ryu Kenpo monks appear to make use of geometry and numbers as well. Much of their "folding" techniques and throwing techniques are derived from their use.
Have you compared these two experiences at all? I suspect it would be an interesting endeavor.

Thanks again,

Chris
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:58 PM   #21
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
It's not only a problem of language, it's also a problem of culture. To put it bluntly: Western People (US, EU) don't think in the same way as Eastern people do. This is the main reason why it's seemingly difficult to accurately translate the word "Aiki". Japanese is a language that's very context based (high-context) whereas English and other European languages are a lot more explicit: if we say "a", we mean "a" and not "b" or "c" or "d", depending on which context the word "a" occurs in.

If we, as Westeners, try to interpret O'Sensei's words, we will do so within a Western framework, ie. any interpretation will be subject to cultural bias. We will unconsciously project our values and ideas in our interpretation. The only people who would have been able to correctly interpret O'Sensei's texts are those who were close to him when he wrote those texts, because they lived in the same context as him.
Maarten,
You have a good point here. Translating a word from one language to another even when done correct, does not mean that it becomes more understandable. A few years ago at the beginning of the month may it started to snow one night. I talked to my neighbour about it and he said it was the "neige de coucou". It translates as; cuckoo's snow. Good translation, but it does not bring me any closer to the meaning.
Cartesian dualism was unknown to O Sensei. Body and mind/spirit were one to him. We do not only have this division of mind and body, but also tend to view the body as a mechanism. We often compare it with a machine, just like we tend to compare the mind with a computer. With such a mechanistic point of view, which is, although outdated, part of our culture and not easy to get rid off, it becomes difficult to understand or to teach even basic principles of Aikido, let alone ideas about the spiritual side of it. After all, why would a machine with a computer have any need for a spirit?
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:55 PM   #22
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Thank you Chris.
The article was most enlightening.

The Kosho Ryu Kenpo monks appear to make use of geometry and numbers as well. Much of their "folding" techniques and throwing techniques are derived from their use.
Have you compared these two experiences at all? I suspect it would be an interesting endeavor.

Thanks again,

Chris
Chris,
Since you mention geometry in relationship to Kosho Ryu Kenpo; there were older martial arts that used geometry: Probably the most famous martial artist of his time was Gerardus Thibault. He was a true master of the art of fencing in the 17th century and could not be beaten by anyone. He was wellknown in Europe and visited the important courts to show his art. He became fencingmaster of the city of Amsterdam (later also in other cities) and taught according to his "mathematical method based on the mystical circle". He wrote a book about his art, that was published after his death in 1628. To this day it is the largest book on martial arts ever published. Beautiful prints made by several wellknown artists, printed by Elzevier. One of the prints is clearly inspired by the vitruvian man by Leonardo da Vinci. It shows the relationship between man, sword and the geometric figures of circle, square and triangle. The more technical prints show methods of avoiding the sword of the other, while at the same moment being able to hit the other. There is a lot in the book that reminds of Aikido. The basic stance looks like hanmi. Some of the moves are similar.
Interesting detail; he speaks of the "sentiment d'espee", the feeling of the sword - meaning that the sword sort of has a will of its own, it wants to move without interruption towards and in the opponent.

According to some historians Shakespeare refers to Thibaut in his Romeo and Juliet (act III, scene 1) when Mercutio speaks about Thybalt; "a villain, that fights by the book of arithmetic".

To get back to the start of your thread, Thibault was famous in his time. It was a time of war and fencing was not a sport. His method really worked and he had a large number of students. Despite this and despite the publication and world-wide spread of his book his teachings were lost over time. The paradigm shifted as well. While Thibault used a circle to engage any opponent, in modern fencing as a sport we prefer a line. Many of the things Thibault taught as essential to his method are no longer even allowed in modern fencing.
And in fact, the modern fencer does no longer even have the ability to understand Thibault's method, his knowledge has been lost, his name almost forgotten, his grave unknown.
(which by the way reminds me of some of the statements made by Dan Harden on other threads).

Gassho,
Tom
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:01 PM   #23
Chris Li
 
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
To get back to the start of your thread, Thibault was famous in his time. It was a time of war and fencing was not a sport. His method really worked and he had a large number of students. Despite this and despite the publication and world-wide spread of his book his teachings were lost over time. The paradigm shifted as well. While Thibault used a circle to engage any opponent, in modern fencing as a sport we prefer a line. Many of the things Thibault taught as essential to his method are no longer even allowed in modern fencing.
And in fact, the modern fencer does no longer even have the ability to understand Thibault's method, his knowledge has been lost, his name almost forgotten, his grave unknown.
(which by the way reminds me of some of the statements made by Dan Harden on other threads).

Gassho,
Tom
Reminds me of http://io9.com/5918644/swordfighting...ou-think-it-is

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-16-2012, 02:50 PM   #24
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Tom,

I have studied Thiebault's manual. It greatly aided me in my largo Mano stick arts. Thanks.
While he studied circles (as did Bruce Lee fusing Wing Chun's square inner and outer gates with the fencing circle), Kosho uses the octagon. Like the article, it is based on the Baqua. You motivate me to reread that classic.

Thanks,

Chris
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:13 AM   #25
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Teachings and Trajectories

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Tom,

I have studied Thiebault's manual. It greatly aided me in my largo Mano stick arts. Thanks.
While he studied circles (as did Bruce Lee fusing Wing Chun's square inner and outer gates with the fencing circle), Kosho uses the octagon. Like the article, it is based on the Baqua. You motivate me to reread that classic.

Thanks,

Chris
I can imagine how his work can aid you with the stick arts. Perhaps especially the situations with a sword in one hand and a dagger in the other?
Always enjoyed training with sticks of any size. But the Filipino arts with a stick is the one art that I would have liked to have had more formal training in.
Funny you should use the word manual. I always imagine a manual to be a small book that you can hold in one hand, while Thibault's book is opened a meter wide. And heavy too. Just my strange way of looking at the English language.
Did you have a look at the emblemata in Thibault's book? He was a Rosicrucian.

How does Kosho use the octagon? In Ba gua it is more like walking a circle, while in fencing in Wing Chun it is more about a dividing of the body in different openings. The octagon revers to the eight trigrams? Or does it come from a different tradition?

Gassho,

Tom
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