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Old 06-07-2012, 09:56 PM   #426
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My old teacher had a great way. If someone said they were coming or appeared at the dojo he would introduce himself, listen to them and proceeed to give two examples. He would ask which one they prefered. Right answer they were welcome, wrong answer they were told it's not for them and sent packing.
Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 06-07-2012, 10:19 PM   #427
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg
Silly wabbit.
Aye, but that rabbit has a mean streak a mile wide. It's a killer....
He's got huge, sharp... er... He can leap about. Look at the bones!

Chris
 
Old 06-08-2012, 12:23 AM   #428
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Indeed, there is an old tradition of such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg
There's a tradition on this forum:

http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y

More you?

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 12:44 AM   #429
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
So when you said that some things that he said were "pre-Aikido" (but declined to ever say what those were, or what made them "pre-Aikido"), you were incorrect?

If anyone's interested, here's the thread.

Best,

Chris
You lost me there. Seems self evident to me.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 01:59 AM   #430
Hellis
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Mornin all
A good nights sleep, rubs eyes, and we still can't get off this crazy roundabout

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-08-2012, 02:12 AM   #431
mrlizard123
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Why would you accept Mark visiting but not Dan? Is this not "dilettantism" by your standards?
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As it happens we then wanted to arrange further visits to each others actual classes.
So it began with dilettantism and progressed on to something more regular? You're suggesting that you'll be meeting up regularly for classes more than five or six days a year?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
One more thing, none of this equals against. That's me and my way. I am not against Dan or you doing your whatever. Therefor if you, or anyone, can only think in such terms then you will see such things in what I say so you are seeing what isn't there.
No one said you were "against" the IP/Aiki teachings, rather that you don't present yourself in a manner that suggests you are qualified to discuss them. This is not a negative slight, we all have things we can learn, should we choose to, the problem is when we misrepresent ourselves, with comments such as "been there done that" when it is clear to people even with only a little experience that you are either mistaken or disingenuous, I'd like to believe it's the first.

The above series of quotes paints a quite simple picture; you were saying that people attending seminars as little as twice a year (coincidentally just after Dan mentioned he was in the uk twice a year...) or thereabouts are dilettantes but when it's pointed out that this definition includes yourself you introduce ad hoc reasoning that because you subsequently "wanted to arrange" further visits you do not fall in to this category; I'm afraid that doesn't logically hold water.

More accurate would be for you to say that you don't want to meet Dan (or other proponents of "internal" training) because you are not interested in learning anything about what people doing IP/Aiki are doing and you're happy doing what you're doing and leave it at that. To add to this that it's because you know it already and understand it (which, it seems, you say about pretty much anything on any subject) raises the obvious questions of why it isn't reflected in your discussion or movement?

It's ok to not know, it's ok to not want to know, as long as we're honest about it.

Last edited by mrlizard123 : 06-08-2012 at 02:15 AM.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-08-2012, 02:14 AM   #432
mrlizard123
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Mornin all
A good nights sleep, rubs eyes, and we still can't get off this crazy roundabout

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
It's a shame we can't embed the theme tune on loop when this thread is opened...

Holding hand up as guilty of crimes of thread continuation.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-08-2012, 06:09 AM   #433
morph4me
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
As an old English guy, the term - stepping up to the plate - always meant `taking resposiblity -acceping or facing the challenge - I never saw it any other way, not something to juggle around to mean what ever one wanted it to mean.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
That has always been my understanding. I think thist may be a matter of “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
 
Old 06-08-2012, 08:52 AM   #434
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahh come on. Look in the mirror. Context. You are becoming quite artful though.

Peace.G.
Graham
I look in the mirror every morning and what I see is what I think I should be seeing.........grey hair, grey mustache....like that......

When I want a true reflection of who I am at the moment I look into the faces of the people I am talking with, read the tone of their responses to me and the body language. With emails, the net, blogs and such....I look at the responses, how they are worded, the tone implied by the structure and like that....... that is one of the mirrors I use to adjust how I interact in the communities I am involved in.... the other ones are the good council of my wife and advice freely given from my friends........

You know..........I liked Bo Diddley as well.....

Gary
 
Old 06-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #435
Henrypsim
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You're welcome.
I need good reason to meet up with anyone in AIkido or life. Don't you?

I don't need others 'good reasons' unless I'm lost.

Step up to the plate is a good saying to put there as you have for I don't agree with the 'shallow' view (as I see it) given to it.

It is generally seen and used nowadays like it's some kind of macho test, like some kind of wild west cowboy thing. Those who use it as such I see as too shallow. When I use it it has no such meaning.

For me an uchideshi for example would be someone who has stepped up to the plate. Thus it's nothing to do with macho challenge but real challenge which includes this major factor....sacrifice.


Giving up things in order to dedicate yourself to something for a set period of time.

Dedication and sacrifice.

Modern day people want to do five minute courses and say they are learning or even come away waving their certificates. This includes meeting up for five minutes or doing a weekend course twice a year etc. To me that is more dilettante than real or worthwhile.

For me serious folk don't do this. If I wanted to learn I/P for example, if I really wanted to then I would travel wherever I had to and would not be satisfied with any part time training or meeting. No, not me. I would maybe make some enquiries but would have to come up with a plan which included intense study whether it be a six month course, a three month course or a five year course.

All else thus to me sounds very nice and friendly and is worth not much at all.

Good for talking and saying 'wow, i felt' but not much else.

So me saying no to Dan is actually a compliment to him. One day we may meet and one day we may spend a couple of weeks or more sharing otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

I would rather show nothing to someone who thinks they can go away knowing what I do by a quick visit.

I am talking me. So no need to debate the issue. Thus what others may see as 'great' when they say I should I actually find it quite insulting. I don't blame them for they don't know me. Sacrifice and dedication is quite the opposite to 'I'll buy you dinner'.

I'll give you 50p for your Hakama or that picture on the wall of your dojo. That's very nice of me don't you think?

Peace.G.
It is evident you have no idea about IP. Concur that continuous training in a dojo would be better than just taking a seminar. However, with IP, solo and mental training is a big part of it. Once understand the concept, it will take a long time to train solo. Once "succeeded" in IP, it can be applied to any martial art or style. Of course, it would be beneficial to have a teacher around "all the time" but to say IP seminars are baisically not effective is just showing that you have no concept of what IP is really about. Just my opinion, not intended to be insulting.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 10:50 AM   #436
Rob Watson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

OSensei went a seminar or two with some quirky guy named Takeda. Next thing you now he stalks the guy for like 20 years and even buys him houses and stuff. Maybe some are afraid they'll do the same after a few seminars on IP. Seems like a good reason not to go to silly old seminars. Or even to met with 'them' folk.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #437
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
So it began with dilettantism and progressed on to something more regular? You're suggesting that you'll be meeting up regularly for classes more than five or six days a year?

No one said you were "against" the IP/Aiki teachings, rather that you don't present yourself in a manner that suggests you are qualified to discuss them. This is not a negative slight, we all have things we can learn, should we choose to, the problem is when we misrepresent ourselves, with comments such as "been there done that" when it is clear to people even with only a little experience that you are either mistaken or disingenuous, I'd like to believe it's the first.

The above series of quotes paints a quite simple picture; you were saying that people attending seminars as little as twice a year (coincidentally just after Dan mentioned he was in the uk twice a year...) or thereabouts are dilettantes but when it's pointed out that this definition includes yourself you introduce ad hoc reasoning that because you subsequently "wanted to arrange" further visits you do not fall in to this category; I'm afraid that doesn't logically hold water.

More accurate would be for you to say that you don't want to meet Dan (or other proponents of "internal" training) because you are not interested in learning anything about what people doing IP/Aiki are doing and you're happy doing what you're doing and leave it at that. To add to this that it's because you know it already and understand it (which, it seems, you say about pretty much anything on any subject) raises the obvious questions of why it isn't reflected in your discussion or movement?

It's ok to not know, it's ok to not want to know, as long as we're honest about it.
Rich.
Do you think that is logic? More accurate would be you being more accurate.

Did Mark come to study something he didn't know? Think you'll find the answer there in plain sight. Therefor it can't come under dilettante. Quite straightforward really.

Dilettante is dipping your toes in, not committing to, ending up saying you have done all these various things and being very 'knowledgeable.

Does that equal those who went to Dans seminars? Some may be or maybe none are. Your twist not mine.

I don't agree with doing things for people short term, (teaching) for it attracts dilettantes. It's a fact.

Now those who know it's a fact and are not doing such things just for money or fame or such then they could take responsibility and vet in such a way as to not get many. Dan may be one of these but as I said he is not the subject except in your head.

The series of quotes therefor sure paint what you would like it seems.

Your conclusion is not correct either. So much for logic then. Let's see....

1) I can't help meeting people who have forms of internal strength or power training, how could anyone avoid it.

2) I have said numerous times I'm happy with what I do and not interested in learning I/P. Nothing new there. So not more accurate, just accurate.

Lots of things I don't know Rich. I don't know you so I don't comment on you for example.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 01:36 PM   #438
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Henry Sim wrote: View Post
It is evident you have no idea about IP. Concur that continuous training in a dojo would be better than just taking a seminar. However, with IP, solo and mental training is a big part of it. Once understand the concept, it will take a long time to train solo. Once "succeeded" in IP, it can be applied to any martial art or style. Of course, it would be beneficial to have a teacher around "all the time" but to say IP seminars are baisically not effective is just showing that you have no concept of what IP is really about. Just my opinion, not intended to be insulting.
It is evident I don't do I/P and don't profess to. I say nothing about I/P seminars or what you learn or how.

Nice explanation otherwise.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #439
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
I look in the mirror every morning and what I see is what I think I should be seeing.........grey hair, grey mustache....like that......

When I want a true reflection of who I am at the moment I look into the faces of the people I am talking with, read the tone of their responses to me and the body language. With emails, the net, blogs and such....I look at the responses, how they are worded, the tone implied by the structure and like that....... that is one of the mirrors I use to adjust how I interact in the communities I am involved in.... the other ones are the good council of my wife and advice freely given from my friends........

You know..........I liked Bo Diddley as well.....

Gary
Nice twirl.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 06:06 PM   #440
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Just taking a turn on the merry-go-round...

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) I can't help meeting people who have forms of internal strength or power training, how could anyone avoid it.
Since you've heard in these discussions that there are very few people out there with the specific skills we are talking about when we say "IP/IS", why do you ask whether "anyone could avoid it?"

Since whatever skills you're talking about are so common no one could avoid them, surely the people who are impressed by IP/IS skills have met the skills you are talking about, weren't impressed, and went on to be impressed by Dan, Mike, Howie, or the others. Doesn't that suggest that the skills you are familiar with are not the IP/IS skills?

And until you meet Dan, Mike, Howie, or one of the others, how can you be sure the skills you've encountered and dismissed are the skills that these folks (and the rest of us) are talking about?

(Pissing into the wind, I know. But any thread which throws up that roundabout photo isn't all bad.)
 
Old 06-08-2012, 07:37 PM   #441
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Just taking a turn on the merry-go-round...

Since you've heard in these discussions that there are very few people out there with the specific skills we are talking about when we say "IP/IS", why do you ask whether "anyone could avoid it?"

Since whatever skills you're talking about are so common no one could avoid them, surely the people who are impressed by IP/IS skills have met the skills you are talking about, weren't impressed, and went on to be impressed by Dan, Mike, Howie, or the others. Doesn't that suggest that the skills you are familiar with are not the IP/IS skills?

And until you meet Dan, Mike, Howie, or one of the others, how can you be sure the skills you've encountered and dismissed are the skills that these folks (and the rest of us) are talking about?

(Pissing into the wind, I know. But any thread which throws up that roundabout photo isn't all bad.)
Hugh. I've heard a lot on here about when 'you say' I/P skills. Roundabouts may well fit.

I've heard Dan deny it's his or any small band of peoples I/P and it's been around for centuries. Mmmm. Seems quite well spread to me.

Now, I've heard Dan say his method of teaching is new and in fact by all reports, better.

I've heard Dan say that there aren't many worth their salt out there doing it. Which would mean to me that encountering anyone very good at it may thus be rare. That is probably true.

So that means many practice and probably many many more 'say' they practice I/P skills of which I have met and so is in my experience. Those from the small set of people you mention one. Those with good ability from that small set I/P wise, none.

Does that tell you something? ( I would be intrigued if pissing in the wind was one of the methods though, does it spiral?)

There can't be many any good at it because after the initial fervor it's all quietened down as reality sinks in and they realize it takes a long time to develop.

So it tells me Hugh that all those who are so used to physical have had their eyes opened to other possibilities. 'Dan opened my eyes to' may become a catchy phrase don't you think.

It also tells me Dan can demonstrate this particular set of internal skills and can do so under 'pressure', It tells me people have felt him do so. It tells me they liked it. It tells me they go away and practice bits. It tells me some have ventured to describe benefits they have gained from it. It tells me quite a lot Hugh.

Now, is there anything else you want to tell me I don't know? People here seem to love to, good game.

Maybe I should do an M and M and give you and them a nice list or even a few pages of what I don't know. Then all the 'clarences' could go back to their mums...:

Peace. G.
 
Old 06-08-2012, 09:07 PM   #442
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

<Slides from the painted pony with a silly grin on his face and wobbles uncertainly across the midway*, staggering perhaps from the disorientation caused by going around in circles but more likely from the stiff three fingers of Laphroaig imbibed before the ride started>

* midway = fairgrounds, for you Limeys.
 
Old 06-09-2012, 06:38 AM   #443
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?
 
Old 06-09-2012, 06:43 AM   #444
mrlizard123
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Laphroaig
Magic roundabout and Laphroaig; recipe for disaster! Good whisky choice though

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-09-2012, 07:17 AM   #445
Hellis
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?
Unbalanced ?

Mr Lizard

Just listened to the `magic rounabout` tune again - I wonder if Jun could add it to this thread ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikidoboard.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-09-2012, 09:23 PM   #446
Tengu859
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

From some of my friends...

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste..."

"Ignorance is bliss..."

"You can lead a horse to water..."

I think most of you get the point...take care.

ChrisW

PS what do I know...
 
Old 06-10-2012, 02:37 AM   #447
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
From some of my friends...

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste..."

"Ignorance is bliss..."

"You can lead a horse to water..."

I think most of you get the point...take care.

ChrisW

PS what do I know...
I agree..

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-10-2012, 02:43 AM   #448
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
@ Graham:

What does the "/" in your "I/P" mean?
It means 'keep an open mind' in a 'roundabout' way. Boing........

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-10-2012, 02:59 AM   #449
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
OSensei went a seminar or two with some quirky guy named Takeda. Next thing you now he stalks the guy for like 20 years and even buys him houses and stuff. Maybe some are afraid they'll do the same after a few seminars on IP. Seems like a good reason not to go to silly old seminars. Or even to met with 'them' folk.
Good idea. I could do with a few houses. Can you afford it? Ah but I don't want you following me around like a lapdog though.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-10-2012, 08:04 AM   #450
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It means 'keep an open mind' in a 'roundabout' way. Boing........
Ok. Thank you for answering. I didn't mean to provoke in any way.

I just don't understand the intention to seperate a given word with oblique stroke. In the Geman language this wouldn't make any sense at all. There would be no "information" in it.
 

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