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Old 06-05-2012, 04:22 AM   #326
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
I have enquired as to my teacher 'prior' to teaching me and met some interesting folk. One, who is also a high Dan grade told me if I get any grief regarding Mikes credentials to put them in touch with him and he'll soon sort them out.

Graham

Just curious, is Gareth Jones the high grade you refer to ?

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-05-2012, 06:54 AM   #327
phitruong
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

i have a question. why do we need spiritual? as a descendant of Barb and one of the horde, i was just wondering the need for spiritual stuffs. we, the horde, tend to help folks who seek spiritual stuffs by sending them to the spiritual world. we have not been able to grasp the concept. it seemed a bit more complex than we could cope, since we have been accustomed to simple concepts, such as, foods, drinks, women, camels (not necessary in that order). so it's a puzzle to us about this spiritual thing. maybe, it's related to them white foreigners which we referred to as ghosts, who kept pestering the living, so every once in a while we would light some incense, fake money and a few fire crackers to send them in their way. perhaps if we sit on the mountain of our enemy's skulls and have a wild party, we might be able to grasp this spiritual concept. we have also thought that a few dozen of donuts and gallons of black bitter coffee would do it too?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 06-05-2012, 08:34 AM   #328
Garth
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i have a question. why do we need spiritual? as a descendant of Barb and one of the horde, i was just wondering the need for spiritual stuffs. we, the horde, tend to help folks who seek spiritual stuffs by sending them to the spiritual world. we have not been able to grasp the concept. it seemed a bit more complex than we could cope, since we have been accustomed to simple concepts, such as, foods, drinks, women, camels (not necessary in that order). so it's a puzzle to us about this spiritual thing. maybe, it's related to them white foreigners which we referred to as ghosts, who kept pestering the living, so every once in a while we would light some incense, fake money and a few fire crackers to send them in their way. perhaps if we sit on the mountain of our enemy's skulls and have a wild party, we might be able to grasp this spiritual concept. we have also thought that a few dozen of donuts and gallons of black bitter coffee would do it too?
Phi,
Just want u to know that post is going down in my top ten list. I believe BTW that i was more a descendant of the legions , as in Roman. Not all of us are pesky ghosts.
Conan said it best. The meaning of life , " to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to hear the lamentation of the women"
Quite a SPIRITual contemplation

Reveling in reality
Greg

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
 
Old 06-05-2012, 08:56 AM   #329
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Conan said it best. The meaning of life , " to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to hear the lamentation of the women"
But Leno said, "Ehh! As long as I host The Tonight Show, I don't care."

Phi...did you see the comment someone made about you on the zombie thread?

Never mind. I see that you did!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-05-2012, 10:30 AM   #330
MM
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I can say that no one is ever under any delusions that my approach is anything to do with any organizational Aikido.

Peace.G.
For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark
 
Old 06-05-2012, 10:53 AM   #331
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye........................................
Mark
Actual Mark I think there are any number of versions of Aikido.....those I see are:
  • Pre War (alot of the old guys)
  • Immediate Post War period (a few of the old guys)
  • Modern Aikido
  • Post Modern Aikido
  • Impressionist Aikido
  • Post Impressionist Aikido
  • Some"thing" else all together (balloons without air)

As for Phi.........are you talking Shaka Khan or the other one?

Gary
 
Old 06-05-2012, 11:59 AM   #332
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.

 
Old 06-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #333
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.
I thought the same thing watching Noro as I did watching certain other people...What does this have to do with budo or Aikido? Only later did I find out that Noro got that as well and knew well that he should call it something different, so he changed the name. Hence no comments. It's clean.

Somewhere or another, Budo needs to be tested as a budo...
No matter what they say
No matter how they defend it.
No matter their arguments to the contrary
It must be martially effective or it isn't a bu-do...its just a-do.
It's always been that way, and always will be.
Dan
 
Old 06-05-2012, 12:29 PM   #334
Hellis
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.
I would agree with this. If I recall correctly, Noro Sensei was involved in a car accident, he had difficulty for some time getting back to Aikido. He found he could practice the soft graceful flowing movements which he name Kinomichi. He doesn't claim to teach Aikido anymore.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
 
Old 06-05-2012, 12:31 PM   #335
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Actual Mark I think there are any number of versions of Aikido.....those I see are:
  • Pre War (alot of the old guys)
  • Immediate Post War period (a few of the old guys)
  • Modern Aikido
  • Post Modern Aikido
  • Impressionist Aikido
  • Post Impressionist Aikido
  • Some"thing" else all together (balloons without air)

As for Phi.........are you talking Shaka Khan or the other one?

Gary
How about Cubist Aikido???
Like Picasso and Braque. The traditional perspective is seen by combining many perspectives and the planes of the composition are broken up and fused into interlocking facets thereby fragmenting and disintegrating the image....

Just sayin'

Chris
 
Old 06-05-2012, 12:35 PM   #336
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi David,

Sorry for replying to your apparently rhetorical question so much later in this thread.
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But show me one "spiritual" person, with pathetic physical abilities who gained the respect of OSensei.
In all seriousness, what about Onisaburo Deguchi?

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
 
Old 06-05-2012, 01:01 PM   #337
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi David,

Sorry for replying to your apparently rhetorical question so much later in this thread.
In all seriousness, what about Onisaburo Deguchi?

Jim
Good point.

I meant only respecting them as budoka.

I'm sure he respected every individual he met--everyone in the world--as divine creatures.

But he would not have wanted just anyone claiming to teach his art and I think that includes Deguchi, really.

Good point, though.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-05-2012, 02:25 PM   #338
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Indeed. Noro Masamichi at least had the decency to change the name of the thing he ended up doing.
Ha,ha. Decency? For such academically gifted folk you sure seem to me to read things as you prefer. I suggest you read up on kinomichi along with with it's philosophy and heritage.

Also. it's much like Ki Aikido. Inoue was almost a co founder of Aikido and what he did was nearer Aikido than most 'Aikido' I see. So enjoy your word games, it's all good.

At least Tohei had the decency to call it Shin shin toitsu ha, ha.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #339
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark
For your heart let me reply.

I consider many things about many Aikido but hold my tongue. It's a budo thing.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #340
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Talking of spiritual I remember a very short lady coming to watch once. She was very spiritual. I had helped her husband and she wanted to see what this Aikido was about. She watched and loved it. Now this was back in the watford days.

She said it was fascinating and hearing our explanations understood a lot just by watching. As a test (and a validation) later me and the teacher asked her if she wanted to do something she had seen. She said yes she'd love to.

We called over two big guys, told her to stand there as she had seen, all five feet nothing of her, and asked the guys to lift her up. Grab her wrists, one guy each side, and lift her up. They couldn't budge her.

She had never done any martial art. Everyone there was amazed for many of them couldn't do it.

But there again it takes 20 years or special technique with short unseen movements or I/p to do these things..or, or or......

Ha, ha. Just sayin....

Peace G.
 
Old 06-05-2012, 03:02 PM   #341
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
For the faint of heart, this is all in my opinion.

I don't think you're doing aikido at all. Period. End of story. I don't even see why you're here on this forum in the aikido sections.

As a blatant personal comparison, Mary Eastland and I don't see eye to eye. I've seen her videos on her website and she's doing aikido. I would call it Modern Aikido, but that's part of our not seeing eye to eye. I have never thought that she isn't doing aikido (Modern Aikido to me). It has value, it has the form, the function, and can be recognized as aikido (Modern Aikido). We have our disagreements as to the foundational aspects of aikido as a whole, but IMO, she's still doing aikido.

You, on the other hand and from where I'm standing, are not. I fail to see any form, function, or recognizability in the videos you have posted. There is a mimicry of some small portion of certain movements, but generally, no, I really don't see any aikido to it. Had you created your own art and stated that your creation was in a small way influenced by aikido ... that I could see.

Maybe if I ever make it over there, you can show me more of your training. As with everything I post, the standard caveat is that I've been known to be wrong. Maybe there's a whole lot more than what you've shown so far ... Until then, I have to go by what you've written and what you've shown, neither of which leads me to any conclusion that what you're doing is aikido.

Mark
Until then......

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-05-2012, 08:13 PM   #342
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Until then......

Peace.G.
Graham
You are the 'Artful Dodger'........

Gary
 
Old 06-05-2012, 08:56 PM   #343
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
At least Tohei had the decency to call it Shin shin toitsu ha, ha.
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.
 
Old 06-05-2012, 09:21 PM   #344
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.
Mochizuki Sensei promoted me to nidan in 1990, when I had 15 years of aikido, having opened the first yoseikan budo dojo in North America, etc.

About that time, I became his uchi deshi. I lived with him twenty-one months and continued to practice at his dojo until 1995. I declined the opportunity to test for higher rank, but when I came back to the US, I "promoted" myself to a rank of my own making: "zero degree". It's a reference to Zen, tao, etc. It also means to "zero in" on oneself.

Not much money in promoting your students to "zero degree!" Let me tell you!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-05-2012, 09:45 PM   #345
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.
Hmm...one word that never came to mind when I thought of Koichi Tohei was humility.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 06-05-2012, 11:04 PM   #346
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hmm...one word that never came to mind when I thought of Koichi Tohei was humility.
He was probably humble with Kisshomaru, though.

I saw the photo on your blog where Ueshiba is arriving in Honolulu, with Tohei off to his right, with a big smile that looks as plastic as window sushi!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-06-2012, 05:06 AM   #347
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Not sure what the "ha, ha" signifies here, but it's a very good point. The senior instructor at Hombu, the guy who opened up the Americas to Aikido, the guy with major high-level certification from O-Sensei himself walks away from the name and the history and gives his new organization a different formal name.

I think there's a level of humility and, I don't know, recognition of the facts on the ground about this that I find admirable.
The ha, ha, signifies how every person who makes their own way with a new name be it tomiki or whatever is doing so out of respect and humility. To show it is different.

The name tells you it is different in some way. It's for you to ask and find out their particular methods and philosophy and way. They have done their bit.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-06-2012, 05:12 AM   #348
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
You are the 'Artful Dodger'........

Gary
Ha, ha. I'll take that as a compliment. I need to be with some, dodging bullets here and there.

Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know.

They could also stick to the the topic and stop dodging about and disrespecting the rules of the forum.

Lots of artful dodgers methinks.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-06-2012, 05:29 AM   #349
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Of course they can always step up to the plate and meet me and learn something they don't know.
Peace.G.
Really?
I am in London twice a year and I have an open mind. I would like to do that. I'll buy dinner.
Dan
 
Old 06-06-2012, 05:36 AM   #350
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Back to topic.
There is a spiritual approach which many will in the future and many in the past took. Tohei studied shin shin toitsu and it led him to his way. Way before the split. It led him to understand what Ueshiba was teaching number one.

Inoue was very spiritual in his approach and his way which he wouldn't call Aikido yet it was more Aikido than much of what followed by many.

The fact that these 'modern' folk can watch Inoue for example and laugh and joke and not understand what he is doing just shows me how much they don't know rather than how much they do.

The usual thing is to say it's not martial, ha, ha. Spiritual ways and blending ways are not martial or budo or bu even. To me that's the biggest joke around.

In it's purpose and even name Aikido means not much different to yoga and many have and will even describe it as a form of such in order to get a point across. The difference is the bu or budo aspect and that about sums it up.

Now many are used to the physical approach. Some are now getting used to the I/P approach but it seems to me not too keen on showing that via film. I wonder why? I think I know why.

Then there is the spiritual approach which not many on here by the looks of it seem to have much reality on.

Now here is the major difference for me. A person doing the physical approach can get very very good and can reach the highest Dan Ranking and can be an excellent Aikidoka. Admirable. To me that is admirable.

The same goes for if someone does the same complete with I/p knowledge. Admirable.

Nothing is admirable to the negative mind except destructive things. So they enjoy being negative and thus admire themselves. Very amusing.

Peace.G.
 

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