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Old 05-30-2012, 04:28 PM   #251
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi David,
That's very in keeping with what little I've learned through the Jinja Shinto of Tsubaki OKami Yashiro. If I am not mistaken, there is a large emphasis on developing intuition; of harmonizing with the heartbeat and breath of kamisama to understand correctness...one must look to Great Nature to understand the way of being virtuous. "A time for every purpose under the sun," comes to mind.
Coincidentally, I think it's interesting to consider the role of the breath and heartbeat for understanding the powers of the universe. Maybe some day I'll have more than vague notions...study study study, I guess. Seems like it would be very fun to be able to embody the universe.
Take care,
Matt
Thank you, Matt. Is the jinja shinto you mention through Barrish Sensei? I had a friend who trained with him several years ago: Sharon OBrien. She's a math teacher now, maybe around Bellingham.

Really, everything changed for me the day I really recognized ki as describe in the Ki Eureka! thread. It was about 16 months ago. Then, at the time of the tsunami, I recognized the Fire and Water principles in my own body. And just a day or two later, I understood kokoro. And I've had a serious of follow-up understandings since then so that my life has been changing and changing very quickly for the past 16 months, most recently with the recognition of Takemusu or ki musubi when that maniac tried to assault me on my front porch.

As to the heartbeat and breath, that goes back to kokoro and I have really been pondering that idea ever since. Here's a line from my most recent poem, Flight of the Venus Satellite, which I hope to make available soon as an e-book:

"Man walks,
woman walks,
hearts beat,
spirits meet,
a fly lights on a pond.

Concentric ripples coincide
With ripples cast by other lives.

Only one side of the surface is water.
The other side is the surface of sky.

Being and nothingness:
in between, the human heart,
a gossamer sheen, vibrates,
resonates
with every thing."

Is that something like you meant?

Thanks and Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-30-2012, 08:36 PM   #252
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Thank you, Matt. Is the jinja shinto you mention through Barrish Sensei? I had a friend who trained with him several years ago: Sharon OBrien. She's a math teacher now, maybe around Bellingham.
Yes, through Barrish Sensei. In fact I just saw Sharon at the Aiki Taisai we just had. I hadn't seen her in several years (I'm just returning to my training), so it was real nice to say hi. I've only trained with her a handful of times, but I always remember feeling like I learned a lot each time.

Quote:
Really, everything changed for me the day I really recognized ki as describe in the Ki Eureka! thread. It was about 16 months ago. Then, at the time of the tsunami, I recognized the Fire and Water principles in my own body. And just a day or two later, I understood kokoro. And I've had a serious of follow-up understandings since then so that my life has been changing and changing very quickly for the past 16 months, most recently with the recognition of Takemusu or ki musubi when that maniac tried to assault me on my front porch.
I'll have to read that thread. I remember skimming it a couple times, but obviously that's not quite the same. I'm still working on finding a distinct recognition of ki so I'm very curious to hear what others experience.

Quote:
As to the heartbeat and breath, that goes back to kokoro and I have really been pondering that idea ever since. Here's a line from my most recent poem, Flight of the Venus Satellite, which I hope to make available soon as an e-book:

"Man walks,
woman walks,
hearts beat,
spirits meet,
a fly lights on a pond.

Concentric ripples coincide
With ripples cast by other lives.

Only one side of the surface is water.
The other side is the surface of sky.

Being and nothingness:
in between, the human heart,
a gossamer sheen, vibrates,
resonates
with every thing."

Is that something like you meant?

Thanks and Cheers.

David
I like that! Thank you! I can't claim to know much of anything on kokoro, but that rings some bells, yes.
Doumo arigato gozaimasu!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-31-2012, 07:14 AM   #253
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi David,

Thanks for your comments and your perspective. I admit, I was somewhat taken aback at your strong reaction to Mary E's analogy. I thought it was certainly worth taking issue with for a couple of reasons, but that it didn't rise to the level of an attack. I'll be honest and say that your level of anger seemed somewhat calculated to me, rather than sincere. But I also don't like it when someone tries to tell others how they ought to feel about something, particularly (as now) when I don't walk in your shoes, and I needed to clarify my own thoughts somewhat. So, thanks for your patience.

To the original comment, here's where I'd take issue with it:

1) It's a flawed analogy to compare a person's choice of attire and a person's decision to engage in discourse and manner of doing so. While it's possible to blur the lines, what I wear isn't about you; what I say to you or about you most definitely is.

2) The use of that particular image (blaming the victim of a rape) was poorly chosen. This may have been simple maladroitness, or it may have been a deliberate choice of shocking or inflammatory imagery. Either the effect was anticipated, or it should have been. Poor choice, either way.

At the same time, I believe Mary E is sincere in believing that Graham is being bullied or victimized on these forums. Again, we disagree. While I find conduct towards him lamentable at times, I don't think it's either bullying or victimization. I see that his behavior is at times insulting and provocative; I've been on the receiving end of his insults and disparaging remarks, too. But I think it's at least conceptually possible that this isn't exactly intentional, self-aware behavior on his part. I agree that it's not consistent, that it doesn't add up, and that he doesn't "walk his talk" in dialogue, never mind aikido...but it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that there's no cynicism in this, merely a rather glaring lack of self-awareness. Mary E seems to see him as a sincere, well-intentioned forum participant (which, on some level, he may be) who is being bullied by others (and it's entirely possible that some people open up his threads thinking, on some level, "Oh boy, I get to have a go at this nutter again!"). But regardless of what level the deception is taking place, whether you're lying to others or to yourself, it's effectively unassailable.
 
Old 05-31-2012, 07:47 AM   #254
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Hi David...

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 08:59 AM   #255
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I thought Mar Malmros's post was a fair assessment of things. I keep hoping for peace in the house, but it's rather foolish to think you are going to get a fairly large group of people... who are not only passionate, but have taken ownership of their training/passion and expect them to all agree on the conclusions or methods.
There is no way to avoid the fact that certain conclusions that have been reached by some, are going to fly in the face of the conclusions of others, some of whom don't even think there are any relevant standards that should apply.
Only a certain type of person will put their conclusions/training out there to be tested-on any level-video or in person. The exposure to scrutiny would reveal all, and they would lose what little voice they thought they had. I've no issue with Graham, his videos have been appraised by any number of people around the world. Whether he likes it or not, the results have not been good, and the level of accomplishment/experience and ability implicit in his tone when he writes is simply being "called on" by just about everyone around the world here....BUT... Ron and Mary. I don't know what that says, but it is why he has come under fire so much. I also found it very interesting in that when it happened to me, it was not only approved of, it was greatly supported by just about everyone here.
The difference?
I stepped up.

Victim
I think it is pretty hard to call yourself a victim when you put video after video out in front of a world of serious budoka, ask for discussion, make claims about what you can do, and then complain when both you and your views of budo are assailed by scores of professionals.

Spirituality and IP
There are some profound answers to be had regarding this interesting topic. I had a lengthy-multiple hours long- discussion with Bill Gleason over this very thing; encompassing historical precedent and personal journeys, trials and results. He and I have some conclusions of our own about transparency, being vital, and your soul/spirit/mind/ body being one and how that is accomplished from meditation through randori to produce a certain unshakable presence. There are definable source materials and practices to produce results.
I never share it publicly for two reasons.
a. It is personal and my results have been tested round the world
b. I don't want to debate it with someone with no palpable results yet it is deluded into thinking they have equal voice.

"Houston we have a problem...."
Many high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called. Their teaching does not meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed. They now avoid forums.
Other high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called and their teaching does meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed and desired. They now avoid forums because they are sick of being debated by pretenders.

Is the result a better place?
I do know that Aikiweb is very well known for a standard, and the quality of information/discussion and calling people on their B.S.. Is it making it better? Well, I recently learned Aikiweb has attracted readership from Shihan very close to Doshu, as well as the likes of Sam Chin and Chen Zhonghua for that very reason. That's saying something.
Budo people have been "called" for thousands of years. In the past they had no choice but to step up. The good news was that it silenced the voices of pretenders, leaving the purity of the arts to remain. Really, it is only the faint of heart who object. Budo, by its very nature must be strong, the process demanding and the results put to the test. Giving voice to a pretender is like the proverbial wanna be walking around with a scroll unearned and claiming expertise in swordsmanship. Eventually they were cut down.
Today the process can be kinder, but the results must be the same. Spirituality has always come at a price, so does IP and so does Budo. The discipline of each is not for the faint of heart.

Dan
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:18 AM   #256
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I think this calls for my response.

My view to sum up me and my perspective with regards to 'perceived' or real attack is based on masakatsu and agatsu. The only enemy is in yourself.

To me when people lose it or even think they know about someone else is a prime example.

Even in the world as a whole, country to country you can look at it from this viewpoint and see a lack of masakatsu and agatsu. A country warring with another, usually under false pretenses, etc, all due to power etc. The thing is meanwhile their own country is less than normal let alone perfect with suffering and unemployment etal. The blame and the solution is not elsewhere but is used as an excuse for such warring behaviour. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Get your own house in order, make your own house a wonderful place for the only enemy to doing such is within.

This does not mean I am anti military or any such thing for if you are beset upon by another country who cannot get their own house in order and thus chooses to attack you to get your oil or resources or to manipulate their own people for internal power reasons or whatever then you stike and strike hard.

Thus the same goes in any circles including and especially Aikido. Get your own house in order. Others houses are none of your business really and attacking them because of personal belief is foolhardy, shows me something is wrong in your own scene, and there we go again. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Do I care what anyone says about the videos? No for they don't know. They shout about the need to feel it yet at the same time think they can be experts without doing so.

Do I care about attacks of me? No for it is only a lack once again of masakatsu and agatsu. They are attacking themselves without even knowing it.

I have a house. My Aikido house is happy, in order, progressive. My way is mine. My way gives what it promises. That's all I really need to know and oversee.

Like all those who have their way they are thus certain and opinionated as to how they do it and their views, be they Ueshiba, Saito, Tohei, Bill bloggs, whoever.

Their responsibility is their way and making sure it delivers what they promise. There responsibility is not attacking others or proving to others.

I welcome all constructive sharing of opinions and refute all 'assumptions'. The assumptions may apply to all manner of people they have met or read or whatever but I am me and they are they. Very simple.

There is a powerful connection between spiritual and application and the vehicle of Aikido is perfect for such. That as the prime is my way. 99% may not be aware or used to this approach. That's fine by me I only say it is and I do.

If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

You can be glad someone is doing a style their way and their students are winning and happy or not.

All else pales into insignificance.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't follow others 'you must do this or do that to be accepted by us' . I teach only those who want to learn the connection of spiritual and the reality of it and effectiveness. I do this from day one, no twenty years nonsense. It is not the same as I/P and yet it is not physical either and there again it is not airy fairy either. Therefor that alone tells you you have not felt it and chances are don't have much experience of it. The only times I heard someone follow what I have said and say openly that they have felt such things ( for example George Ledyard) but don't see how I could be doing that brings me to a main point also.

I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.

Those who approach me in the right manner in order to learn my way are satisfied, in fact more than. Those who just want to feel so they can talk about are given short thrift. As a three times karate champion told me, she was fed up going around doing seminars and demos like some kind of show pony. She was fed up with other karateda wanting to know how to knock people out etc. She knew the real gains of Karate and wanted no more to do with the politics and show.

She wishes they would concentrate on getting their own house in order too and stop trying to prove something. A very aware lady.

Have fun doing your own way, I do.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:24 AM   #257
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think this calls for my response.
Graham,

Suppose some guy comes up doing some really crazy looking stuff, wearing a T-shirt that blasphemes Islam, for instance, wearing a Pirate hat, and tells everyone he's doing Zen Shin Kan Aikido.

And suppose further that he says he learned everything--even his blaspheming Islam--from Graham Christian?

Will you then say "It's all good"?

Would you really? Would you not even post somewhere that "This guy is NOT my student and I didn't teach him any of that?"

I can't believe you would allow that kind of insanity to parade as something you endorse. And if you don't speak against it, you tacitly endorse everything he says.

Would you really just remain silent?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:25 AM   #258
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Many high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called. Their teaching does not meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed. They now avoid forums.
Other high ranking teachers no longer post because they have been called and their teaching does meet a standard, their knowledge and abilities revealed and desired. They now avoid forums because they are sick of being debated by pretenders.
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:31 AM   #259
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.
That's true, but it starts with their making a claim that stimulates a question.

No claim, no blame (to paraphrase Lao Tzu).

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:42 AM   #260
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think this calls for my response.

My view to sum up me and my perspective with regards to 'perceived' or real attack is based on masakatsu and agatsu. The only enemy is in yourself.

To me when people lose it or even think they know about someone else is a prime example.

Even in the world as a whole, country to country you can look at it from this viewpoint and see a lack of masakatsu and agatsu. A country warring with another, usually under false pretenses, etc, all due to power etc. The thing is meanwhile their own country is less than normal let alone perfect with suffering and unemployment etal. The blame and the solution is not elsewhere but is used as an excuse for such warring behaviour. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Get your own house in order, make your own house a wonderful place for the only enemy to doing such is within.

This does not mean I am anti military or any such thing for if you are beset upon by another country who cannot get their own house in order and thus chooses to attack you to get your oil or resources or to manipulate their own people for internal power reasons or whatever then you stike and strike hard.

Thus the same goes in any circles including and especially Aikido. Get your own house in order. Others houses are none of your business really and attacking them because of personal belief is foolhardy, shows me something is wrong in your own scene, and there we go again. No masakatsu and agatsu.

Do I care what anyone says about the videos? No for they don't know. They shout about the need to feel it yet at the same time think they can be experts without doing so.

Do I care about attacks of me? No for it is only a lack once again of masakatsu and agatsu. They are attacking themselves without even knowing it.

I have a house. My Aikido house is happy, in order, progressive. My way is mine. My way gives what it promises. That's all I really need to know and oversee.

Like all those who have their way they are thus certain and opinionated as to how they do it and their views, be they Ueshiba, Saito, Tohei, Bill bloggs, whoever.

Their responsibility is their way and making sure it delivers what they promise. There responsibility is not attacking others or proving to others.

I welcome all constructive sharing of opinions and refute all 'assumptions'. The assumptions may apply to all manner of people they have met or read or whatever but I am me and they are they. Very simple.

There is a powerful connection between spiritual and application and the vehicle of Aikido is perfect for such. That as the prime is my way. 99% may not be aware or used to this approach. That's fine by me I only say it is and I do.

If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

You can be glad someone is doing a style their way and their students are winning and happy or not.

All else pales into insignificance.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't follow others 'you must do this or do that to be accepted by us' . I teach only those who want to learn the connection of spiritual and the reality of it and effectiveness. I do this from day one, no twenty years nonsense. It is not the same as I/P and yet it is not physical either and there again it is not airy fairy either. Therefor that alone tells you you have not felt it and chances are don't have much experience of it. The only times I heard someone follow what I have said and say openly that they have felt such things ( for example George Ledyard) but don't see how I could be doing that brings me to a main point also.

I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.

Those who approach me in the right manner in order to learn my way are satisfied, in fact more than. Those who just want to feel so they can talk about are given short thrift. As a three times karate champion told me, she was fed up going around doing seminars and demos like some kind of show pony. She was fed up with other karateda wanting to know how to knock people out etc. She knew the real gains of Karate and wanted no more to do with the politics and show.

She wishes they would concentrate on getting their own house in order too and stop trying to prove something. A very aware lady.

Have fun doing your own way, I do.

Peace.G.
Graham,

I get this.

Conrad
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:50 AM   #261
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that these two explanations cover all cases of high ranking teachers who no longer post. Likewise, let's not make the mistake of assuming that anytime someone refuses a challenge to "put up", it's because they don't have the goods. Unfortunately, it seems like this assumption is all too often made in these debates. There are many reasons why someone might choose to not "come out and play"; fear/expectation of failure is only one of them.
Sure, Mary. I can agree with that.
I would only start to doubt when they; chose to be a part and then not take part, make declarative comments and then refuse to support them.
There is an inconsistency in that, that only triggers warning signals. When I think of Spirituality and IP and the whole man (man/woman), it usually delivers decisiveness, courage, and a surety that can be quite defining and often dividing. When one claims one thing, but everything else is missing, I think of a poor man, putting on someone else's expensive suit and pretending.
Dan
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:52 AM   #262
DH
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If that scares you, if you see that as some kind of threat, if you see that as impossible, if you see that as not fitting to your empirical methods, if you see that as strange, so what? That's you not me.

I am beholden not to you, only the people I have delivered the promise to.

I have never met a person yet who wasn't happily impressed. That's all I need to know. I don't fit your usual image or progress line. Not my problem.
Peace.G.
Hi Graham
In many ways I have found your demeanor admirable. You do have failings sometimes, as we all do. I would suggest you consider some advice given to me by Jun, Marc and George; You, like me, and everyone else here are beholden to each of us in a way. We make the community and we invest time and our lives in training and talking to each other. We have built a community here from around the world. If we are here talking, then we are a part of that by choice. That comes at a price. And it is a good thing not a bad thing. Since you made yourself part of the community here, you have made some startling and declarative commentaries on Aikido, Ueshiba and certain truths. I was intrigue by some of your writing and thoughts. That they will draw attention and a desire to come feel/test it to see if your ideas are sound or not (Judging by the declarative and authoritative nature of some of your posts) should not come as a surprise to you. Virtually everyone here, myself included who has written in this manner has been pushed to demonstrate and they have met people from here and did exactly that.

Ellis paid a wonderful compliment to me by telling me "You need to get out there and let people feel this and teach it, and if you don't want to, then get your ass off the net and shut up. Be a part of the solution!" It was probably some of the best advice I ever received this late in life.

I would only suggest that you have chosen to be a part of a community, and that has certain obligations. One of which is support your writing when asked, with physical demonstrations occasionally. I was fortunate that I listened.
Peace in return
Dan
 
Old 05-31-2012, 11:00 AM   #263
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
When one claims one thing, but everything else is missing, I think of a poor man, putting on someone else's expensive suit and pretending.
Dan
Or like claiming to be a CPA and giving financial advice when you're not really a CPA.

Or, as you said elsewhere, carrying a scroll you found and claiming to be an expert swordsman.

Not cricket, really.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 12:57 PM   #264
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's true, but it starts with their making a claim that stimulates a question.
Meaning that no one is/has been challenged to "put up" unless they've made a claim?

Good to know...
 
Old 05-31-2012, 01:10 PM   #265
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Meaning that no one is/has been challenged to "put up" unless they've made a claim?

Good to know...
Well, I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of any examples.

Graham has certainly made voluminous claims but has never backed any of them up.

So he gets called down a lot....

And then there are those who say only what they can prove, but they're disputed by someone with no real basis for dispute: "You can't really do it" though hundreds of people know they can.

That's another kind that gets heat.

1) saying you can but refusing to back it up
2) saying someone can't when they've proven repeatedly that they can

But both are kinds of claims...

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 09:53 PM   #266
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Behaviour is an interesting thing. On the spiritual side of all budo and all things you will find it is a must, a discipline of the utmost importance.
Speaking of Richard Kim, he quotes his teacher, Yoshida Kotaro, as saying there is a difference between attitude and behavior in that we can fake an attitude, but we can't fake our behavior. Our fake attitude may impress people, but eventually, our true nature is seen in our behavior. Further, he says, we're always the last to see our own behavior.

Anyway, I say, it's better to be yourself and behave as you will, intentionally, instead of not being your true self and therefore behaving unconsciously.

My first karate teacher, in 1972, had a picture of himself in a group with Mas Oyama, the bull killer. He had a wall hanging that said "Kyokushinkaikan Karate Do" and claimed some degree of black belt with Oyama.

Later, it turned out the picture was from a seminar this guy attended with Mas Oyama in Alabama, but the guy who organized the seminar, an actual black belt under Oyama, said that the fellow in question was only a green belt. He had black belts in other types of karate, apparently, but he claimed the one art he didn't have rank in. I left his class to train with the other guy.

Although the first guy had pretty good dojo decorum and dignified bearing, his behavior in the larger context was deplorable. So there's "behavior" and then there's "behavior...."

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:09 PM   #267
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Bless you. No one is killed in Aikido. But I know what you mean.
Are you aware that it was Ueshiba who said "In aikido, the opponent is killed at a single blow!"?

And this was after he'd had two major enlightenment experiences, including the one in the garden, when he drank from the well and saw the golden lights, etc.

He was talking about actual application, not what's normally shown at demos. In this case, he felt compelled to show the real, inner truth because he was showing it to the Emperor: the God of Japan.

So that was the inner truth.

Later, he had another great enlightenment experience and he said, ""The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.""

He placed his emphasis, then, on protection, but do you think his technique lost its deadly edge? Did his sword or his spear become dulled or soft (like Nerf foam)?

Budo must always be deadly in essence or it cannot function as effective protection.

That's the paradoxical nature of budo. It works for peace, but its method is always in handling physical violence.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-31-2012, 10:20 PM   #268
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I'm reminded of a brouhaha in a fitness forum I frequented some years back.

One guy on the forum advised a pregnant woman to do chin-ups. If you know what pregnancy does to ligaments, not to mention how the weight of the pregnancy is supported by the back (badly), you'll know why everyone on the forum who knew anything dumped all over him. He insisted he was correct and that the woman should do chin-ups.

Should everyone have said, well, that's his truth and it's just as good as any other truth?

Or, people exercise for different purposes, and if she likes chin-ups she should go right ahead?

Or, you can't correct every stupid statement on the internet, so just let it go?

In the event, the forum moderators banned him.

I'm not suggesting banning anyone here, but I do suggest that if we think we are doing anything more than stylized exercise, some vigorous response is only appropriate.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 04:55 AM   #269
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham,

Suppose some guy comes up doing some really crazy looking stuff, wearing a T-shirt that blasphemes Islam, for instance, wearing a Pirate hat, and tells everyone he's doing Zen Shin Kan Aikido.

And suppose further that he says he learned everything--even his blaspheming Islam--from Graham Christian?

Will you then say "It's all good"?

Would you really? Would you not even post somewhere that "This guy is NOT my student and I didn't teach him any of that?"

I can't believe you would allow that kind of insanity to parade as something you endorse. And if you don't speak against it, you tacitly endorse everything he says.

Would you really just remain silent?

David
David, the truth is 99% of the time I would remain silent and find it funny. I have learned in life that the main, the single most important thing is hold your own counsel. I cannot stop nutters saying what nutters say and I'm not going to spend my life looking out and worrying about it. It's a waste of time and energy.

Truth always comes through and whoever does that kind of thing may have short term satisfaction but will become the bad effect of their own action.

If it's stupid enough then I would no doubt get calls from friends asking me if I know him and so it just takes a simple no.

Famous people must get this sort of thing all the time but eventually realize they can't give out counter statements all the time, they'd have no time left.

Funny thing is only the paranoid or those with things to hide go to extortionate lengths to make sure no one ever says anything against them which isn't true (which in this day and age just means can't be proven) to protect their 'good name' Prime example: Tiger.......

Top footballers in this country do it too at great cost (called gagging orders) and low and behold it turns out it always turns out it's because they have secret affairs or dealings or corruptions to hide.

For me, who cares, I don't. I'll leave that to those who want to end up nervous wrecks.

The old saying 'He or She protests too much'.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 05:18 AM   #270
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
What is the right way?

IN AIKIDO, THE OPPONENT IS KILLED AT A SINGLE BLOW!

Are you aware that it was Ueshiba who said "In aikido, the opponent is killed at a single blow!"?

And this was after he'd had two major enlightenment experiences, including the one in the garden, when he drank from the well and saw the golden lights, etc.

He was talking about actual application, not what's normally shown at demos. In this case, he felt compelled to show the real, inner truth because he was showing it to the Emperor: the God of Japan.

So that was the inner truth.

Later, he had another great enlightenment experience and he said, ""The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love.""

He placed his emphasis, then, on protection, but do you think his technique lost its deadly edge? Did his sword or his spear become dulled or soft (like Nerf foam)?

Budo must always be deadly in essence or it cannot function as effective protection.

That's the paradoxical nature of budo. It works for peace, but its method is always in handling physical violence.
No David I wasn't aware of that particular statement or the context you gave it in. Being in bold letters it appeared you were 'shouting' it at me. My mistake.

Are you aware I say the same thing in that respect? I have said as such in threads to do with fighting trying to show the difference between martial art and fighting. Ie: Enter, finish, (or lose, or die) that's real battle field, not rolling around putting on locks or holds or cage fighting. Big difference.

On budo is love and his application thereafter, no it did not lose it's effectiveness but where we differ in view may be on wording or reality. I say it remained potentially deadly and that actually it became much more powerful and effective yet 'undeadly' ie: not harmful. A subtle difference which to me makes all the difference.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:32 AM   #271
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
No David I wasn't aware of that particular statement or the context you gave it in. Being in bold letters it appeared you were 'shouting' it at me. My mistake.
Yes. It was Morihei Ueshiba. And Musashi was the same kind of thing. That's the fine edge of budo.

Having put it in all caps, I guess it did appear to be "shouting".

Of course, it was actually silent....we supply the sound tracks in our own mind. I guess it's no surprise you interpreted it as my shouting. It was intended to appear as if carved in stone....

Actually, it was intended more like Tezuka Sensei's "ORENJI! GAMBARE!"

Which, by the way, does not actually "mean" "FIGHT!"

It "means" GAMBARE! which seems to have no exact translation in English. "Don't give up!" is one interpretation. "FIGHT!" is one, "HANG IN THERE!" is another....Sensei just said "GAMBARE!"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Are you aware I say the same thing in that respect? I have said as such in threads to do with fighting trying to show the difference between martial art and fighting. Ie: Enter, finish, (or lose, or die) that's real battle field, not rolling around putting on locks or holds or cage fighting. Big difference.
After Mohizuki Sensei showed me exactly what Ueshiba meant by "killed at a single blow," I realized that the willingness and formed intent to end the encounter permanently in the first move communicates directly to the attacker's subconscious mind, as I described in the encounter on my front porch.

With that inexplicable knowledge electrifying his spine, an attacker finds it difficult to move against you.

In that case, you can apply an arm lock or wrist lock and be effective, if he manages to attack. I've never had anyone do it.

On the other hand, make no mistake, I have been in a position to be attacked when it was literally too late to do anything. If the other guy had been serious, I would have been dead. So I always try to develop good will from people I meet. You never know who might "get evil thoughts" and decide to teach you a cruel lesson. Fortunately for me, the guy didn't have actual ill will. He did scare me seriously, though. I am aware of my own mortality. Only God keeps me alive.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
On budo is love and his application thereafter, no it did not lose it's effectiveness but where we differ in view may be on wording or reality. I say it remained potentially deadly and that actually it became much more powerful and effective yet 'undeadly' ie: not harmful. A subtle difference which to me makes all the difference.
It makes an art that people can learn and become strong with IF they understand that it really is a hard, sharp and pointed blade. Too many people take the smug and self-assured attitude of "Surrounded by guys with sticks and you don't have a weapon? Just take one of theirs!"

Well...maybe...

Cheers.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-01-2012 at 06:46 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:46 AM   #272
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
David, the truth is 99% of the time I would remain silent and find it funny. I have learned in life that the main, the single most important thing is hold your own counsel. I cannot stop nutters saying what nutters say and I'm not going to spend my life looking out and worrying about it. It's a waste of time and energy.
Well, that's why I made the guy so extreme: not because I'm saying you're like that. I doubt you hate Islam or that you wear a pirate's hat.

But if a guy like that is telling people he learned it all from you....you wouldn't speak up?

I mean...it hardly seems that you "hold your own counsel" about anything.

Why would you hold it about that?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Truth always comes through and whoever does that kind of thing may have short term satisfaction but will become the bad effect of their own action.
But if it blackens your name and the name of your art, as well as aikido in general...it can cause us all a lot of trouble.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If it's stupid enough then I would no doubt get calls from friends asking me if I know him and so it just takes a simple no.
But the "call" may not be from a friend. And it may not be a call...if he insults the wrong people in your name....Ask Salman Rushdie, for instance.

So I think it's vital to be very clear about someone who claims to represent you...or your art.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
For me, who cares, I don't. I'll leave that to those who want to end up nervous wrecks.

The old saying 'He or She protests too much'.
OK. But when some nut job in a pirate hat is giving out ranks in your name, don't say I didn't warn you!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 06-01-2012, 06:53 AM   #273
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Graham
In many ways I have found your demeanor admirable. You do have failings sometimes, as we all do. I would suggest you consider some advice given to me by Jun, Marc and George; You, like me, and everyone else here are beholden to each of us in a way. We make the community and we invest time and our lives in training and talking to each other. We have built a community here from around the world. If we are here talking, then we are a part of that by choice. That comes at a price. And it is a good thing not a bad thing. Since you made yourself part of the community here, you have made some startling and declarative commentaries on Aikido, Ueshiba and certain truths. I was intrigue by some of your writing and thoughts. That they will draw attention and a desire to come feel/test it to see if your ideas are sound or not (Judging by the declarative and authoritative nature of some of your posts) should not come as a surprise to you. Virtually everyone here, myself included who has written in this manner has been pushed to demonstrate and they have met people from here and did exactly that.

Ellis paid a wonderful compliment to me by telling me "You need to get out there and let people feel this and teach it, and if you don't want to, then get your ass off the net and shut up. Be a part of the solution!" It was probably some of the best advice I ever received this late in life.

I would only suggest that you have chosen to be a part of a community, and that has certain obligations. One of which is support your writing when asked, with physical demonstrations occasionally. I was fortunate that I listened.
Peace in return
Dan
Thank you Dan,

I see where your coming from and I see it is your sincere view.

I agree it is like a community, an internet community. A talking and sharing community for that's what one of these is. The community can thus only remain strong and bubbling if it has 1) Courteous, respectful communication. 2) Many diverse views.

Those are the two main important obligations, contributing to such.

The other things you mention to me are not obligations. As I see it if the first two are kept in then you cannot but have relationships forming and as a result people then going to meet each other. It is natural and not an obligation but depends solely on the first two.

This is not an organization, a command structure. It's a communication forum and informtion depository. The only shoulds are on how to conduct yourself.

I come to any one of your or anyones dojos then it's different, I follow the rules and shoulds and shouldn'ts and must dos etc according to instruction and rank. Apply that kind of thing to a forum and you destroy it and end up with a clique left and much public avoidance. That's my view.

I'm sure nearly everyone knows really that respectful communication is the major factor far and above anything else for a forum.

I found early on to my surprise people were getting in touch with me by p/m with queries about spiritual things I said. Sincere enquiries, (just to clear up what I meant) and yet telling me similar things they do. I was bemused as to why they had to ask in ;secret'. Ridicule was the reason. It keeps people away, it's the main reason, negativity.

Now what Ellis told you I can see fits you perfectly, look where it's led you to. Great.

We are all different.

What I didn't expect was that my views and experiences and what I say would draw people to want to feel it and test it. I actually thought and believed it may draw people to discuss it, to ask about it leading to sharing of views. You may say that's naive and maybe so. I didn't envision me be wanted to go anywhere let alone being told I should.

Nonetheless I knew one thing. If I struck up any relationship with anyone and they happened to be interested and passing my way they would be welcome. It would be fun.

The internet scene, me with you, broke all my rules of having someone come train with me or me wanting to train with them. I hold fast to those rules in life so why change them for 'cyber world'?
No, the scene was too farcicle and others appeared to look at it as some show waiting for the outcome. That's just not me.

Now to add to that I then met Mark. We had a few jokes about the internet world and of course very briefly actually you came up as a subject, or should I say our communications. I let him know I don't care who a person is if we don't get on or I don't think his behaviour is o.k there's no way I want to meet them. Now in response he told me that he found you very amenable and fun and that I had got you wrong, in a polite way. It was brief and it was short but his communication did reach through to me. Just thought I'd let you know that.

Anyway, that leads me to a reality. You point of physical demonstrations occasionally when asked.

Reality: I have been asked by some on this forum via P/M, only about five or six, if when they pass by they could train with me, meet up. I have always said yes.

Reality: One person has done. He is I take it of good standing in the organizational world of Aikido and just as an added bonus had also met you but once. So I would say the occasionally criteria has been met or started.

There are many things we did at that brief time, many things we showed each other, many things he asked me to show or demo, and many things I asked him to test based on things he must have heard me say on here.

Therefor there is one reality people can refer to. We did, or rather I did pick up the sword or bokken. Actually, you should have seen the look on his face. It was one of those moments. Him being an experienced Aikidoka, just that split second I could see he was confident with such and yet in his mind I picked up just the one thought of probably 'how many times have I been in this situation and had to show someone that's not how you do it' I felt that, you would have to ask him if that is correct or not, but it led me to immediately say how I just want him to test and feel based on what I had said and he had no doubt seen on here.

So actually as many things I had said about that we had time for het tested, plus adding his own tests or barriers and vice versa. These included such things as him attacking cutting and me using sen no sen and moving without him being able to follow me or 'get' me. Pleasantly enough he could do the same.

Bottom line I think we ended up happy with each other and impressed with each other. Now any negative person can find a way to put even that down with a yeah but and oh it's because. That's why I don't follow the 'you must' (prove) route because it's never ending. So I say no I musn't.

So there you are. They are my views and that's me. At least you know noew I didn't learn what I know from the back of a matchbox..ha,ha.

Peace.G.
 
Old 06-01-2012, 07:18 AM   #274
mrlizard123
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So there you are. They are my views and that's me. At least you know noew I didn't learn what I know from the back of a matchbox..ha,ha.
Though we shouldn't discount the teachings of the matchbox...


I'm pretty sure it kills older people too but it's useful knowledge in case you get attacked by children I guess...

Joking aside, I just wanted to comment that I think there's been a noticable shift in the tone/manner of posting by people (on all sides) in the last few posts and wanted to commend it as being a pleasant read!

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 06-01-2012, 07:19 AM   #275
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, that's why I made the guy so extreme: not because I'm saying you're like that. I doubt you hate Islam or that you wear a pirate's hat.

But if a guy like that is telling people he learned it all from you....you wouldn't speak up?

I mean...it hardly seems that you "hold your own counsel" about anything.

Why would you hold it about that?

But if it blackens your name and the name of your art, as well as aikido in general...it can cause us all a lot of trouble.

But the "call" may not be from a friend. And it may not be a call...if he insults the wrong people in your name....Ask Salman Rushdie, for instance.

So I think it's vital to be very clear about someone who claims to represent you...or your art.

OK. But when some nut job in a pirate hat is giving out ranks in your name, don't say I didn't warn you!

David
I don't care what a guy like that says.

I do hold my counsel. I do not complain about others. I have never consulted Jun about any perceived or real insults, hurtful remarks, even slanderous ones, or even many I could perceive as racial. I hold my own counsel. It is actually ignorant and funny to me for the most part. Maybe that makes me odd or mad but not to me.

Friends tune in sometimes and even ask me 'why do you put up with it and find it funny?' My reply is always the same. I say it's like Aikido and that you can't go around in life being affected by such things. I actually use it as a lesson to them.

It can't blacken my name. I don't fall for such rubbish. I am not a name. Those who believe that is all important good for them. It can't actually blacken the name of the art or Aikido. Only gossips can't tell he's he nutter and prefer not to.

You know I actually do drills on this kind of thing in Aikido? In these drills the opponent is allowed to say anything, to insult you anyway, to find a way of taking your center, of putting you off, of leading your mind in order to then dump you splatt.

I say when you reach a point where it doesn't matter, where it really doesn't matter to you and you can keep calm and relaxed and centered and smile only then do you deserve to do anything and even then without malice. The lesson is be willing to calmly face anything no matter what without need for any action against for any reason whatsoever then and only then will you know what true action rather than re-action really is. Only then will you not be led by things and start being the master of your own life.

Salman Rushdie was the effect of his own actions be that right or even crazy.

Peace.G.
 

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