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Old 05-29-2012, 10:57 AM   #151
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I figured that the stuff Dan was talking about was either:

a) some interesting methods/tricks/etc that would be handy
b) something which was inflated beyond it's purported effects

I ummed and ahhed and wondered about it, an easy thing to do when I wasn't about to swim across the pond to check and I'm too poor for a speculative holiday.

I happened to stumble across the notice for a UK seminar, thought about it and decided that I would go for a weekend away and invest that time to see for myself what the fuss was.

Let's be clear, I largely expected to come away feeling robbed of a weekend (sorry Dan!)... reality was far far from that - it's something that is a fascinating thing to take and run with.

You're faced with two choices; pretending that you can put the genie back in the bottle and acquire selective amnesia or accept that there are skill sets that really can be focused on, developed and deployed into your martial arts.

There is a danger when discussing it because there are phrases such as "move from centre" that people would jump on with "we do that already!" possibly... that depends on what you mean by it. It's easy to see how you could take a dozen sound bites from a workshop with Dan and have other people (devoid of the face time and hands on comparison) who would state confidently that it was already in their repertoire but the devil is in the details; what do these terms mean when we say them? Why are they important? How do we do them?

To believe that the number of people who've seen Dan and the number of people who are/were not just sceptical (as I was) but downright disbelieving and incredulous I simply cannot believe that you can expect we are all just confused/deluded/protecting our "investment".

Where are the posts by people who've met Dan and said there was nothing special?

Considering the assumptions required for 1000 odd people from all manner of arts, from wide levels of skill to all be confused/deluded/worried about appearing foolish Occam's razor suggests that actually we might be right in that perhaps Dan isn't just talking out of his hat.
Thanks for the excellent first hand account! I wish I had 1000 more like it.

I'm not saying Dan's talking out of his hat. I'm just saying that it is one of my personal mantras to never underestimate the human capacity for delusion.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:59 AM   #152
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I'm just saying that it is one of my personal mantras to never underestimate the human capacity for delusion.
That's why length of experience and time in Japan carry weight in one's opinion.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:01 AM   #153
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary, that is a low, unworthy and Foul thing to say.

You have no right to say that and when you do, you seriously undermine your image as a responsible thinker or any kind of serious person.
+1 I was thinking to myself: "She couldn't shoehorn in a Hitler comparison too?"
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:12 AM   #154
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
+1 I was thinking to myself: "She couldn't shoehorn in a Hitler comparison too?"

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:17 AM   #155
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad, it might help you to consider the backgrounds of the people who have met Dan and been incredibly impressed by what he can do and how easily he can teach others to do it. We're talking about people with decades of experience with direct students of Morihei Ueshiba, many of them having lived a number of years in Japan.

On the other side of the argument, who ya got? Graham?

Show me someone with decades of experience and time in Japan who has met Dan and found him lacking. Give me one name, huh?

David
That's a good argument, but there could be other reasons why nobody has publicly come forward with a negative opinion. In the public sphere, Dan has a history of being somewhat aggressive in the face of criticism. Most people would rather not get dragged into a public conflict.

To clarify, I'm certainly not arguing that IP/IS is BS. I'm simply pointing out that I don't feel convinced based on what I've read on the Internet (absent of direct experience, admittedly) that it is the holy grail of martial arts and the missing component in 99% of the world of aikido. The rhetoric around it has been pretty hot and heavy.

That's a pretty small and personal claim to make, in my opinion. I don't think any rational human would begrudge me the right to apply the usual critical thinking skills. Once you give that up, things get cultish pretty quickly.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:21 AM   #156
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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That's why length of experience and time in Japan carry weight in one's opinion.

Cheers.

David
Again, I agree, but Japanese can be deluded too, as well as people with a lot of experience.

Still, I would give more weight to an opinion with a great deal of experience behind it.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:21 AM   #157
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
That's a good argument, but there could be other reasons why nobody has publicly come forward with a negative opinion. In the public sphere, Dan has a history of being somewhat aggressive in the face of criticism. Most people would rather not get dragged into a public conflict.

To clarify, I'm certainly not arguing that IP/IS is BS. I'm simply pointing out that I don't feel convinced based on what I've read on the Internet (absent of direct experience, admittedly) that it is the holy grail of martial arts and the missing component in 99% of the world of aikido. The rhetoric around it has been pretty hot and heavy.

That's a pretty small and personal claim to make, in my opinion. I don't think any rational human would begrudge me the right to apply the usual critical thinking skills. Once you give that up, things get cultish pretty quickly.
Don't give it up, just don't try to assume it's bunkum either.

My suggestion would be to take an opportunity to train with Dan or someone teaching the sort of skills being discussed if you get the chance.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:23 AM   #158
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
That's a good argument, but there could be other reasons why nobody has publicly come forward with a negative opinion. In the public sphere, Dan has a history of being somewhat aggressive in the face of criticism. Most people would rather not get dragged into a public conflict.
Maybe that's people who can't put up so they decide to shut up?

Usually, however, if people have that kind of mind, in my experience, they just throw insults at Dan from a distance because they are too frightened even to meet him. They have black belts and they're proud of those black belts, but their real power is in the tongue, which has no bones.

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
To clarify, I'm certainly not arguing that IP/IS is BS. I'm simply pointing out that I don't feel convinced based on what I've read on the Internet (absent of direct experience, admittedly) that it is the holy grail of martial arts and the missing component in 99% of the world of aikido.
Thus, it has to be felt. You really can't comment until you've felt it. And Dan's not the only one who can show it. He has often said that.

But what is it that compels people with NO experience on the subject to make continual repetitive comments about it?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I don't think any rational human would begrudge me the right to apply the usual critical thinking skills. Once you give that up, things get cultish pretty quickly.
They also get very cultish among people who refuse to experience it but assure everyone that they understand it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:26 AM   #159
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Again, I agree, but Japanese can be deluded too, as well as people with a lot of experience.

Still, I would give more weight to an opinion with a great deal of experience behind it.
Good. So people with a lot of experience in aikido (decades with Ueshiba trainees), who are well-established teachers with hundreds of students AND who have felt what Dan, Mike, Ark, Rob and so many others are teaching....I would think they would be best able to comment here. I would also think they'd be the ones you'd listen to more than some who come out of the mist wielding swords like magic wands.

Good luck.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #160
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Thanks for the excellent first hand account! I wish I had 1000 more like it.

I'm not saying Dan's talking out of his hat. I'm just saying that it is one of my personal mantras to never underestimate the human capacity for delusion.
Hi Conrad,

I share your views on the human capacity for delusion, and my post will make you 999 away from your pursuasion target. I first met Mike Sigman with exactly the same head on as Rich, I was sceptical, but like him was prepared to gamble a weekend of my life, finding out the truth for myself. I have seen Dan each time he has been to the UK. Take it from me, Dan's not talking out of his hat. I've been with a great teacher for 20 years, and was happy with the progress I have been making. The last 2 years, after having experienced these guys, has moved both my practicing and teaching up another level. You have to be prepared to put the work in yourself, but being given a clear set of mind/body exercises, to work on and develop, for me as an aikidoka, is what I search for.

Personal investment can be measured in time, money, effort, blood, sweat and tears etc... Learning what they have to teach, for me, is worth it. Everyone else has to work it out for themselves.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:39 AM   #161
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
I would characterize it as 1.1) A very highly informed mode of training working on subtle aspects of body dynamics. The form isn't much different than other practices, but I get the impression the depth of understanding of specific aspects is the real difference. And there's always something to be said for inspirata to make a person focus better.

I think the hype tends to drown out the message. I'm not exactly an awesome martial artist, but I do think I have a realistic (enough) view of things. It's not BS. Perhaps it's more than some folks think it is, but I'm inclined to think it just comes across that way because of the hype.
I attended the first time just out of curiosity for the kind of training and went back because it struck me as worthwhile and the people I got to meet were incredibly nice, so my wife gave me the second go 'round as a birthday present.
I sympathize with the blowback because I think the message has come across as a bit pushy at times. I've decided to chalk that up to differences in communication styles as well as the natural problems the internet creates.
For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. I'd like to add I agree with David's idea that it's not either-or when it comes to spiritual or physical. There is a high degree of biofeedback training (I believe) which demands such a high amount of mental focus that it is a great place for the two to come together.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-29-2012 at 11:42 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #162
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Maybe that's people who can't put up so they decide to shut up?

Usually, however, if people have that kind of mind, in my experience, they just throw insults at Dan from a distance because they are too frightened even to meet him. They have black belts and they're proud of those black belts, but their real power is in the tongue, which has no bones.

Thus, it has to be felt. You really can't comment until you've felt it. And Dan's not the only one who can show it. He has often said that.

But what is it that compels people with NO experience on the subject to make continual repetitive comments about it?

They also get very cultish among people who refuse to experience it but assure everyone that they understand it.

David
David,

I'm just defending my right to withhold judgement on the issue until I've encountered some convincing evidence (I know, IHTBF).

I'm not hurling insults at Dan (though I believe you that some do), and I'm not commenting on his ability to do things or teach things.

I can still comment on the quality of the evidence, the quality of the arguments in favor or against, the general quality of the discussion around the topic, and the attitude and demeanor of those who participate. These are all public sphere, open for observation and comment, and I use these publicly observable phenomena to decide how much energy to invest in further investigation. In the end, it is my own decision and it only affects me.

You seem very convinced and very sincere, and maybe one day I will be a believer as well. Until then, I don't see any reason why my criticality should be seen as an insult. After all, IHTBF, right?

I'll take your to determination to convince me and others as a genuine enthusiasm to share something that you feel is special and awesome. Thank you for that.

Cheers,

Conrad
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:47 AM   #163
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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I don't see an effective solution; other than just not caring about anyone else's views, including all the people who may be forming them as opposed to holding on to them which doesn't appeal greatly either.
Eh. You don't control the truth, and you can't protect people from falsehood. You have to not treat them as children and let them protect themselves. It's not your responsibility to keep people from barking their shins and scraping their knees (and a damn good thing, too, because you have no power to do so).
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:52 AM   #164
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hugh,

I completely agree with you. Anyone can go to a seminar and judge for themselves. It's not at all like having to travel to the south pole!

In my case, I don't have any teachers or personal acquaintances that have come back from a Dan Harden seminar to say IHTBF. I'm not saying that the whole thing is untrue, I'm just saying that until this happens, I'm not going to prioritize a Dan Harden seminar over other opportunities (holidays with my family, for example).

So far, all I have seen is people making claims on the Internet, and a relatively small number of people jumping on to back up those claims. I know that IHTBF, but if there were some videos of the training or whatever I might be less skeptical.

I am also aware that once a person has made a commitment (travelling to a seminar, training for X number of hours), one becomes invested and is less likely to be critical of it because of the loss of the initial investment that would occur by rejecting it. Take Scientology, for example. If someone invests their life savings and decades of commitment to the "religion", it makes it very difficult for them to think critically about it. There are lots of Scientologists on Internet forums who claim that Scientology is "The Truth" (ring any bells here?), but that doesn't inspire me to run out and join up in order to prove or disprove this for myself.

The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
Hi Conrad
I take no offense to critical analysis when it is applied.
Unfortunately it is almost never applied.

Here you leave out critical pieces.
a. This isn't the Dan show. It would be more incredulous, even ridiculous, were we discussing some "method" I found or as you put it "rediscovered. That is not the case. Others teach this-though they are rare and although Ueshiba discussed it, people didn't even know what he meant or how to translate material that you can have found in any number of internal Chinese sources. Hence, the lack of real education of Ueshiba's students and biographers remains self-evident.
b. To wit; you left out "what" it is...because you and the vast majority don't know, and of those that know some things, they don't know how to train it or really use it.
c. Any reasonable person would accept the fact that thousands are going out to meet me and others training and teaching this. Indeed, it becomes incredulous as a counter argument to avoid the seriously experienced people opting to train this way.
d. Total B.S. can then...only apply If you want to call 14 Shihan 6 6th Dans and a host of Go dans, who have trained for decades....deluded idiots susceptible to B.S. and not being able to differentiate. Thats seems rather desparate and dismissive to me as a counter.

On the whole, credibility needs to win over emotion, prejudice, bitterness and anger, so we can all see certain truths or at least highly probable answers. At this point "total bullshit" as a possibility and counter protrays either total ignorance of the narrative thus far, or a willing denial of some pretty obvious facts, that this work is larger, older and more established than any single individual.
People have hired contractors and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trusting them with a project with less word of mouth recommendations than has been shown here.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-29-2012 at 12:05 PM.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #165
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hi Mary,

in my experience of what Dan and others are doing, it has as much to do with the mental state, as the musculoskeletal condition/ing. As for these things being separate from a spiritual component, how can you have spiritual, without mind and body and vice versa?
That's a bit like saying "How can you have a sandwich without mayonnaise?" It's not on me to prove that; that's a whole separate discussion, and not one that I care to engage in in current company (in other company, I might, but this one? hell no). I'm simply pointing out that when you're using two similar (but not the same) terms that are composed of words that have multiple meanings, it's a mistake to assume or assert that the two parties using them mean the same thing.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 12:04 PM   #166
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I would characterize it as 1.1) A very highly informed mode of training working on subtle aspects of body dynamics. The form isn't much different than other practices, but I get the impression the depth of understanding of specific aspects is the real difference. And there's always something to be said for inspirata to make a person focus better.
Not having seen it or done it, this is also my impression.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think the hype tends to drown out the message.
As do issues in personal style and attitude about things beyond martial arts.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #167
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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I sympathize with the blowback because I think the message has come across as a bit pushy at times.
I think the "pushy" feeling comes from replies to people who push in a passive aggressive way, haha!

They dismiss valid statements with no proof or experience and then up the ante when a reply comes in. They don't know what they're talking about, but they just love to talk.

If "put up or shut up" is pushy, then people have just lost touch with the real nature of budo.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 12:19 PM   #168
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi Conrad,

I thought we were long past first hand accounts being important in this, but it does seem the internet forgets... A while ago, in a different age of aikiweb history, I wrote this:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=23
If anything, I have become a lot more enthusiastic of Dan's work since. So make it 997.

Is that the ONLY way to me? Hell no. To each their own. I'd still find it presumptious to even say its mine.

Now, considering all the people in history who have fooled themselves about all sorts of quite relevant things, could it conceivably be that Dan is some sort of high-power con artist who manages to fool hundreds of people, including myself?

I personally dont think so at all, but, as an exercise of mind, it could conceivably be. But you know, I remember the good times had, I see what I get out of the exercises I learned, how it deepened my understanding of what aikido could be and how it could work, and I really could not care less. In a way, I do not even understand the reasoning behind the thought (which you, admittedly, did not put that way, but it is a continuous implication here on aikiweb), because for me it is a question of whether I want to Find Out About Things In My Own Life Myself. And not just exchange opinions.

BTW, IP is spiritually relevant to me in a non-trivial way - but I am not going to discuss that here.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 05-29-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: improvements, hopefully
 
Old 05-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #169
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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I think the "pushy" feeling comes from replies to people who push in a passive aggressive way, haha!

They dismiss valid statements with no proof or experience and then up the ante when a reply comes in. They don't know what they're talking about, but they just love to talk.

If "put up or shut up" is pushy, then people have just lost touch with the real nature of budo.

Best to you.

David
Passive-aggressive!? Why must you hate freedom, David?
I agree the pushy feeling has been experienced on both "sides" of the debate. The nature of past conversations has definately colored the present. Human politics as usual, I suppose.
Also, I'd like to be clear, I don't think people are trying to be pushy, just that it comes across that way sometimes.
And I think there's something to be said for the fact that we are martial artists to some degree or another (me to a lesser extent than just about anyone else here, I know). My perhaps not-so-humble opinion is that many people who have very assertive natures tend to be attracted to martial arts and that assertive quality can make a "colorful" conversation "pregnant with pushy." Then agan, I'm often told I'm not assertive enough, so maybe my vantage is biased in that regard.
Regarding put up or shut up, I agree with the principle of proving through example, but I don't believe in the "shut up" part. For lack of a more subtle description, people have the right to be wrong, never mind the "half-right" things that might get said. I think the "shut up" side of that equation poisons conversations that could be better, if not, plain ol' good. In person it makes more sense than on a forum of communication, at least.
I dunno...maybe I'm not a budo-dude. I understand the severity to budo; even like it, but I don't think it's automatically the best way to handle people. I'd rather be severe with myself and soft on others...but I'm rambling now...
...and hey, wasn't I going to post less?
Take care, David!
Matt


Quote:
Mary wrote:
As do issues in personal style and attitude about things beyond martial arts.
Aint that the truth!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-29-2012 at 02:00 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #170
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Mary, that is a low, unworthy and Foul thing to say.

You have no right to say that and when you do, you seriously undermine your image as a responsible thinker or any kind of serious person.

I demand an apology and I am not kidding!

That is entirely uncalled for, dishonest and insulting.

I want an apology NOW!

Your statement above is a glaring example of exactly that.

There is no excuse for such an insipid comment here.

David
Don't hold your breath. You are completely obfuscating the issue.

 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #171
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Here you leave out critical pieces.
a. This isn't the Dan show. It would be more incredulous, even ridiculous, were we discussing some "method" I found or as you put it "rediscovered. That is not the case. Others teach this-though they are rare and although Ueshiba discussed it, people didn't even know what he meant or how to translate material that you can have found in any number of internal Chinese sources. Hence, the lack of real education of Ueshiba's students and biographers remains self-evident.
b. To wit; you left out "what" it is...because you and the vast majority don't know, and of those that know some things, they don't know how to train it or really use it.
c. Any reasonable person would accept the fact that thousands are going out to meet me and others training and teaching this. Indeed, it becomes incredulous as a counter argument to avoid the seriously experienced people opting to train this way.
d. Total B.S. can then...only apply If you want to call 14 Shihan 6 6th Dans and a host of Go dans, who have trained for decades....deluded idiots susceptible to B.S. and not being able to differentiate.
Dan,

No argument here.

a. Point taken, and I'll remember this for future threads. I'd be curious who else you would put on the list, inside or outside of aikido.
b. I left it out on purpose. It would be disingenuous of me to try to describe something I don't understand (never claimed to).
c. I think it is evident that you're not making up the fact that you have lots of students and lots of positive endorsements from those students.
d. As for myself, I've ruled out total BS (based on c).

As for the pushiness thing, I think this particular forum thread has civil and enjoyable. I've learned something and I'm grateful for the well-written posts.

What I'm still withholding judgement on is the claim that this teaching is integral to "real" aikido (or "O-Sensei" aikido) but that almost nobody can teach it or do it. It just seems a bit far-fetched considering all of the great, dedicated teachers out there.

So let me re-direct the discussion. How do you know if someone is doing aikido without IP? In order to make the claim that almost nobody can teach it or do it, you either need to go around challenging everybody (which I highly doubt is what is going on) or you have to judge them based on videos or interacting with their students.

Doesn't IHTBF apply in both directions?

Thanks again for the interesting discussion.

Conrad
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:18 PM   #172
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Don't hold your breath. You are completely obfuscating the issue.
Don't worry, Mary. It takes some character to apologize for a statement like you made. I expect none from you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #173
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Passive-aggressive!? Why must you hate freedom, David?
You, know, of course, that I wasn't referring to you?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Regarding put up or shut up, I agree with the principle of proving through example, but I don't believe in the "shut up" part. For lack of a more subtle description, people have the right to be wrong, never mind the "half-right" things that might get said. I think the "shut up" side of that equation poisons conversations that could be better, if not, plain ol' good. In person it makes more sense than on a forum of communication, at least.
Well, it's "put up or shut up...or be recognized as a phony," really.

The thing is, someone makes an idiot statement that they cannot back up with actions. Then they have to expect to be called on it.

And then others rush in crying that you told a phony to "put up or shut up."

I don't see the "shut up" as "poisoning" conversations that "could be" good or even better.

If a "scientist" claims E=MC3, for instance, what will all the other scientists say? Prove it!

What was Einstein's achievement?

He proved E=MC2 with mathematics.

In budo, claims have to be proven with ability, or they are simply BS. Or, as in the case of Ueshiba's many references to Chinese concepts, you have to have documentation.

Now with so many of our passive-aggressive posters, they cannot show because they don't have ability, but they also reject documentation of Ueshiba's statements, claiming that the existing translations are perfectly fine, though they, themselves cannot read Japanese....

They can't prove what they, themselves claim and they reject claims that others have thoroughly proven.

What kind of useful conversation can come of that, ha ha?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:37 PM   #174
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And then others rush in crying that you told a phony to "put up or shut up."

I don't see the "shut up" as "poisoning" conversations that "could be" good or even better.
Do you see any "poisoning" -- or, never mind that word, anything problematic -- in your characterization of what Matthew said as "crying"?

I think it's a loaded word, at the very least, and I think it's problematic.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 02:38 PM   #175
Gary David
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Folks
This has gone on way to long........it went on way to long last time.........

There are any number of folks on here that push back hard against the idea of the training that Dan is providing.......some of these folks are within hours of where Dan lives, some are within miles of locations that Dan visits regularly doing workshops.....and will not take the opportunity to see what is going on..........

Now if you have never wondered what was on the other side of the fence, across the street, down the road or on the other side of town....then you don't need what Dan is offering.....

If you let what you see as Dan's hard to take personality keep you away (which is not the case in reality) then you are better off staying you own back yard...you really didn't want to know anyway.....

If you think that you can already do that and don't need to verify or validate your personal understanding then you don't need to visit Dan or feel what he is doing.........

If you have never questioned your instructor (no matter who he or she may be)...that is wondered about some aspect of what they were doing...if you could stop it or jam it up or counter it....then you don't need what Dan is offering....

If you don't have 5 or more years to just explore this.......just to retrain you body out of the bad habits it has now......then you don't need Dan.........

(Heck....I am not sure I will live long enough to get a solid understanding and then integrate it in to the other components that make up the whole....)

NOW....

If you have ever tried to look through a crack in the fence, tried to cross the street or take the bus to get to the other side of town.......then you need to check out what Dan is offering.....

If you have wondered while taking those falls for your instructor....Then you need to go check out Dan.....

If self-discovery is not quick enough or it has stalled....then go check out Dan.......

CONSIDER......Dan has not even started training on the other components.....or on Aiki....come on out...may he will get to it.......

CONSIDER.....Dan has not displayed his IP (and other components) through techniques.....he is not teaching from that perspective.....come on out...may he will get to it........

CONSIDER....in my 38 years at this art I have only personally gotten touches on what Dan is providing and talking to from 3 of the major players in post war Aikido...Two have passed on and one is still teaching. I got clues that several others were in this group, but I didn't feel it or see it displayed in a recognizable way.

REMEMBER....... you can replace Dan's name with number of others and get a start at this......

THOUGH in the end, for those of you that won't come and take a chance....but continue to carp.......I will refer to a quote from an old movie "Gone With the Wind"

Rhett Butler: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
[Rhett walks off into the fog]

have a good day......
Gary

Last edited by Gary David : 05-29-2012 at 02:45 PM.
 

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