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Old 05-29-2012, 08:22 AM   #126
lbb
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Matt, the problem here is that so many people read this site and gather ideas on which they build "understandings" about aikido and budo in general.

Is it really correct to allow utterly inexperienced "teachers" to put out goofy claims without challenge?
"Correct"? I don't think that word really applies here. Sure, if someone says something that you consider "goofy", you're entitled to challenge that if you want. But that's your choice; it's not some kind of imperative. Ultimately, you don't control the dialogue; you can't control the access to information of all these people you're talking about. You can't prevent them from reading ideas that you consider "goofy", and you can't control their minds and prevent them from drawing conclusions from what they read that you consider equally "goofy".

You'll never get consensus; you'll never eliminate the goofy. You'll never eliminate the problem of bad information and silly notions. You may view it as your personal life mission to challenge the "goofy" wherever and whenever you see it. Personally, I view that as counterproductive. I imagine someone new to aikido comes into these forums, takes a brief look at this sound and fury, and forms an equally poor opinion of all the shouters. I see that bad ideas can be put forth persuasively and good ideas can be represented poorly. I don't think you solve the problem you want to solve by making it your mission to participate fully in this neverending call-and-response shouting match.

And really, when you get down to it, it's a rather paternalistic view, that new people who come to this forum need to be guided to the light (or your version of it). People don't have to have an advanced degree in martial arts history to have simple common sense. Someone who knows what bullshit smells like is going to smell it whether it's wearing overalls or a hakama. If your ideas make sense to a newbie, then they'll accept them; if not, if they require a prerequisite understanding of concepts that the newbie doesn't know yet, then where's the ethics in trying to get someone to swallow your brand of the truth hook line and sinker -- even if it's true? "Protect the ignorant from the charlatans" sounds like a good and noble thing, but it's a very slippery slope. Ultimately, I think you do more good by making information available (not spamming it into every thread on a forum) and then stepping back, showing some respect for the people you want to protect, and letting them figure it out for themselves.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:26 AM   #127
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahem.......Don't you mean separating them in one thread? They are not opposites you know so I'm sure you can think of more diverse things.

Come to think of it, one day I'll do a write-up on the two. (I don't mean on here) This write up will be quite brief and divided into three sections.

1) Things in the two which are the same.
2) Things in the two which are similar.
3)Things in the two which are different.

Your comment has inspired me. Nice.

Peace.G.
The point I was making was that the two do not have a logical relationship and can very easily stand on their own - and, that each of them has very diverse viewpoints, not that they are necessarily diverse in themselves, but I guess they could be depending on the individual. How's that for straightforward

Greg
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:28 AM   #128
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Inner power is defined differently for different people. I think it is a combination and blending of the 2 extremes of the 2 camps that appear on this thread. The spirituality comes from the humility of taking responsibility and letting others be on their own path.[/i]
I believe that Dan et. al. are using "internal (not inner) power" to refer to a set of musculoskeletal causes and effects, that has little or nothing to do with one's mental or spiritual state. I could be wrong about that, so hopefully they will correct me if I am -- but I don't think they've claimed the term "inner power", and I'm pretty sure they haven't claimed any spiritual component as such.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:30 AM   #129
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Ultimately, I think you do more good by making information available (not spamming it into every thread on a forum) and then stepping back, showing some respect for the people you want to protect, and letting them figure it out for themselves.
I would like to think this would be true but the reality (IMO), from my understanding of forums, is that newcomers only read the most recent posts and don't really take the time to read through.

They get the impression from the surface; hence all the repeat posts on the same topics "I like the idea/philosophy/etc of aikido but will it work in street/octagon/space?" etc.

There is no easy solution, but I think not saying anything runs the risk of allowing the signal to noise ratio to creep in the wrong direction until finally no one can see the woods for the trees.

I don't see an effective solution; other than just not caring about anyone else's views, including all the people who may be forming them as opposed to holding on to them which doesn't appeal greatly either.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:39 AM   #130
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's unfortunate. I for one am going to try and change his mind. Three or four people don't make a forum. If I had caved, while fighting the tide of ignorance over this extremely important, even vital work, none of the teachers would have ever met me.
Alec has very worthwhile opinions and viewpoints from very broad experience. Interestingly, those embracing this work are typically people with several decades of experience in and out of Japan and China. In one sense most of the detractors don't even come close to their level of comparative ability and judgement.

Don't give up so quickly Alec. Contrary to all the unsupported hubris and huff and puff that continues to fall apart in person...not all opinions it turns out...really are equal.
Try to adopt an informative mindset as opposed to a debate mindset. I don't come on these forums anymore thinking I am debating with my equals (in skill level only of course, not as people). A wise Master Class teacher when asked why he doesn't talk on forums, looked up bemused and said. "Why argue....with students."

Of these detractors-who can stand on a mat and be tested this way?
Not a single one of them.
And Alec? They know it.
So don't take it so seriously. Remember you are talking to thousands of readers, far past a handful who will oppose you no matter what you say. Look at me. I am being asked to come to Japan and teach friends of doshu and go to China...and I am arguing with some sandan on a forum?

These seminars with me and others are all booked for a simple reason. Their stuff simply doesn't work. Ours does. How many are thrilled to see that they had wasted decades in the wrong direction? Do you think their happy about that?

The art is finally moving forward and gaining power. So, does it really matter what they say? In time...if they are not doing this type of work, they will be sidelined as not doing Aikido.. as they simply will not be able to hide it. They won't be able to stand on a mat and function with those who do.
Look ahead Alec.

Greg
On the one hand I agree, except that a lot of this work was tied to the spiritual aspects....in VERY physical ways.

Cheers
Dan
That's true, but maybe that is also where the problem lies in understanding and transmission because of the diversity of the two - IMO, it it not just a simple addition equation of bringing aspects of the two together but more of a logarithmic one where things get multiplied exponentially

Greg
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:47 AM   #131
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I think you are right, Mary M. I don't see the 2 as separate but I think others do. Thanks.

 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:47 AM   #132
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The point I was making was that the two do not have a logical relationship and can very easily stand on their own - and, that each of them has very diverse viewpoints, not that they are necessarily diverse in themselves, but I guess they could be depending on the individual. How's that for straightforward

Greg
meant to say: "Logical dependent relationship..."

Greg
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:50 AM   #133
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
This is not a logical analogy but rather an appeal to emotion.

If someone had jumped Graham in the street and beaten him with a bat and David was condoning it using the argument that Graham considered his art to be effective so was "asking for it" then the analogy would hold; he's not, he's merely stating his viewpoint on the nature of Graham's presented views.

People are welcome to assert whatever they like, including that anothers assertions are a load of rubbish.

One should be prepared to justify/support/defend their opinions or should consider keeping them to themselves if responses upset them.
Thanks for the correction, Rich. I have never been accused of being logical. I agree with your point. I don't agree that Graham was asking for nastyness when he put his stuff on the net. I do agree that he will get it. But David would not be quite logical saying that Graham caused David's action. Right?

 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:55 AM   #134
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I think you are right, Mary M. I don't see the 2 as separate but I think others do. Thanks.
Yes, to many of us inner strength and internal strength are two very different things - however, with that said, IMO, aspects of inner strength can help in development of internal strength/power just like aspects of inner strength can help all endeavors of an individual.

Greg
 
Old 05-29-2012, 08:59 AM   #135
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Thanks for the correction, Rich. I have never been accused of being logical. I agree with your point. I don't agree that Graham was asking for nastyness when he put his stuff on the net. I do agree that he will get it. But David would not be quite logical saying that Graham caused David's action. Right?
No he didn't cause David's post, but we are not discussing cause and effect.

By posting a viewpoint online we are inviting others to read, consider, accept, reject, comment, etc.

Simply because we do not agree with the response does not make it wrong for the person to provide it.

Nastiness is also somewhat subjective and I don't agree that this was/is nastiness; it was phrased frankly without dressing it up, possibly a touch of frustration or exasperation (I can't really speak for David so I'm guessing here...).

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:11 AM   #136
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yes, to many of us inner strength and internal strength are two very different things - however, with that said, IMO, aspects of inner strength can help in development of internal strength/power just like aspects of inner strength can help all endeavors of an individual.

Greg
+1
Very true. While they remain important distinctions the Asians knew they intertwined. There are some specific and very logical reasons why that is so.
Dan
 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #137
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I believe that Dan et. al. are using "internal (not inner) power" to refer to a set of musculoskeletal causes and effects, that has little or nothing to do with one's mental or spiritual state. I could be wrong about that, so hopefully they will correct me if I am -- but I don't think they've claimed the term "inner power", and I'm pretty sure they haven't claimed any spiritual component as such.
Of course, there are musculoskeletal causes and effects, but it has everything to do with your mental state. If you believe Ueshiba then it has everything to do with your spiritual state as well...

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:13 AM   #138
David Orange
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Where AikiWeb fails, I think, is when people won't meet and won't shut up. You've every right to voice your opinion--but if you won't back it it up, there's no reason why others have to respect it.
Yeah, the old "put up or shut up" standard. That's the bottom line, isn't it?

In ordinary discussion of most topics, if you make a claim, you can "explain" it or "back it up" with more and more words. But in budo, if you make a claim, you have to demonstrate skill or you look like a fool.

And this is vitally important because budo is directly concerned with the problem of human violence. Some methods are known to work and some work so well that the one who discovers them is loathe to share them lest they be turned against him. Part of budo spirituality is understanding who you can teach something to and who you should not teach under any circumstances. Another part is having the humility to recognize that another person knows something very important that you have no idea about, whatsoever. IP is one of these areas and Graham is an excellent representative of the group that thinks he already knows all he needs. Those who support him, then, are betraying a serious flaw in both intellectual thinking and in spiritual depth. Those who follow him, then, are placing their lives in danger even as they become intellectually mushy and spiritually vacuous.

I think the real essence here is in the matter of ki.

If you really, physically, understand your own ki, the claims of most "ki masters" and many "aikido teachers" become clearly ridiculous. Ki exists and works in the zone between mind and body. It's how the mind accesses the body. When one has too little understanding of the body, his "ki" is in fact only an intellectual abstraction and his statements about ki reflect only his own wishes or his made-up fantasies about something he has not directly experienced. From there, everything goes down the drain, including ki, technique and life, itself. How tragic is it if we allow such people to make bizarre and unfounded claims about ki, technique, aikido and spirituality without lodging protest and clarification? From one false master, thousands of people may absorb and spread the false way. I have no problem seeing it and saying that it is false. You don't have to be the greatest in the world to adhere to the true principles. But if you consistently violate all the fundamental principles of life and the universe, nothing you do can find truth.

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The good students, the people who are learning, take the rebuke, think about it, and allow it to change them. The poor students get resentful and close their ears. The choice is yours.
I get "rebuked" almost daily by a ghost and it almost brings me to tears to remember when the man was alive, to understand that what I thought was a "rebuke" and harassment was actually like a pat on the back from an excellent master.

I was at the yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka, in the middle of a randori, almost worn out, doing my best to keep on, when Akira Tezuka passed through and shouted "ORENJI! GAMBARE!" ((Orange! Fight! [or "Try Harder!]))

I felt it as a poke and an unnecessary hassle, criticizing me for not trying hard enough when I was doing my best.

Now I know that Tezuka Sensei was giving me as close as he could (as a shihan) to a compliment and encouragement. It was supposed to be uplifting. He was sending me ki through his kiai and it went right through me.

Tezuka Sensei died a couple of years ago at a fairly young age and I know I'll never see him again, but every now and then I hear that voice barking, "ORENJI! GAMBARE!" and I feel such deep gratitude that it hurts my heart. But it also achieves his desired uplifting effect and I do receive his ki, now, and it helps me along life's path.

It reminds me of something attributed to Yoshida Kotaro: in life, some people can never give back to you, no matter what you give them, because they cannot "contain" what you give them. No matter how much you do, your gifts just go right through them, so they always need more and, therefore, have nothing to give back to you.

So here, we have some people who are always begging for attention and validation because they let everything go right through and can't contain what has been given to them. We have to learn to recognize this and realize that these people simply cannot contain the values we were all given. They always need more and never give anything of real value. And that is a spiritual problem, but it can be overcome by the physical work needed to 1) recognize one's own ki; and 2) develop one's own ki. Without that physical work, budo is reduced to an intellectual "argument" in which all sides are equal. And that's just another way of saying "baloney".

Another reference to Richard Kim comes from his book The Classical Man, in which a would-be spear expert begged for an audience with Yoshida Kotaro. "If he approves my ability, I'm made," the fellow said. The story that follows is pathetic. The would-be master finds that he is worthless against Yoshida. The title of the story: "He Who Seeks a Compliment Gets the Truth."

The truth is a wonderful thing if we find it by searching for it. But if we get the truth while searching for a compliment, it's usually not very pleasant.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:16 AM   #139
Mark Freeman
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I believe that Dan et. al. are using "internal (not inner) power" to refer to a set of musculoskeletal causes and effects, that has little or nothing to do with one's mental or spiritual state. I could be wrong about that, so hopefully they will correct me if I am -- but I don't think they've claimed the term "inner power", and I'm pretty sure they haven't claimed any spiritual component as such.
Hi Mary,

in my experience of what Dan and others are doing, it has as much to do with the mental state, as the musculoskeletal condition/ing. As for these things being separate from a spiritual component, how can you have spiritual, without mind and body and vice versa?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:38 AM   #140
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I think the real essence here is in the matter of ki.

If you really, physically, understand your own ki, the claims of most "ki masters" and many "aikido teachers" become clearly ridiculous. Ki exists and works in the zone between mind and body. It's how the mind accesses the body. When one has too little understanding of the body, his "ki" is in fact only an intellectual abstraction and his statements about ki reflect only his own wishes or his made-up fantasies about something he has not directly experienced. From there, everything goes down the drain, including ki, technique and life, itself. How tragic is it if we allow such people to make bizarre and unfounded claims about ki, technique, aikido and spirituality without lodging protest and clarification? From one false master, thousands of people may absorb and spread the false way. I have no problem seeing it and saying that it is false. You don't have to be the greatest in the world to adhere to the true principles. But if you consistently violate all the fundamental principles of life and the universe, nothing you do can find truth.

David
I like this part - I view Ki as the bridge between the mental and the physical and it has aspects of both in it. IMO, those that view Ki as magical or some part of a pragmatic metaphor will never understand enough to develop and manifest any high level internal skills.

Greg
 
Old 05-29-2012, 09:47 AM   #141
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I am only expressing simple and basic principles of dialogue. You are in fact argueing against those principles. You may do that, but it leaves no place for dialogue. And that is what a forum is all about, is it not?
Tom
Tom,

You're coming from a perspective in which both parties have equal validity from the beginning, but that is not the case on this forum.

If the topic is architecture, then Dan's point of view and opinions are far more valid than mine, though I have built buildings and repaired them and studied construction and so on. Dan is a professional architect, so whatever I may know about the subject, he knows almost infinitely more and his opinion matters more.

On this forum, we have people who trained for decades under direct students of Morihei Ueshiba. And then we have folks like Graham, who...well, it's not quite clear, yet, what he studied or under whom, but the one time he got close to a known master of aikido (Gozo Shioda), he did not touch him.

So are you saying that Graham's opinions on aikido are of equal weight to those of people like Ellis Amdur and Henry Ellis?

To try to put everyone on the same level of validity is ridiculous, I'm afraid.

It produces bizarre and useless perspectives.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:01 AM   #142
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Well, lots of interesting points made. As far as I can see they all go to show that spiritual is different to I/P.

Physical, I/P, Spiritual. Three different things.

Peace.G.
OK. I think that statement very well underlines your lack of understanding, Graham.

I/P is where the physical and spiritual coincide.

But make no mistake: the physical is the foundation of all spirituality in Japanese arts. For one thing, without the physical, there is no spiritual or mental. So we must begin with the body.

In budo, whatever you say about the "spiritual" has to be expressed through the body or other people's bodies. So "spiritual" depends on the physical. Otherwise, you're just an invisible ghost that cannot effect anything in the "real" world.

Budo is a process of developing the mind and spirit through training the body. Without that physical training, the rest is just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:02 AM   #143
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'm quite a fan of YHTGTTSPAMTL, almost as much as the Invisible Pink Unicorn which made a big appearance on the religion listservs a while back.

But extend your example. So agreed, YHTGTTSPAMTL is stupid, but some pigheaded martial arts heavyweight (you know who you are) is stubborn enough to actually go to the south pole, and he comes back and says, oh my god, there actually is a leprechaun and YHTGTTSPAMTL!

And some people who know him go and come back shaking their heads saying, YHTGTTSPAMTL.

And some very high-up guys say, "This is ridiculous. We'll put an end to it." And they come back and don't say anything until the third or fourth beer, at which they can be heard to mumble, "yhtgttspamtl."

The fallacy of calling it a circular argument is that you are assuming you're operating in the closed universe of logical reasoning. You're not. You're operating in the open universe of empirical experience. In that world, there's only a limited amount of denying experience which is consistent with sanity.
Hugh,

I completely agree with you. Anyone can go to a seminar and judge for themselves. It's not at all like having to travel to the south pole!

In my case, I don't have any teachers or personal acquaintances that have come back from a Dan Harden seminar to say IHTBF. I'm not saying that the whole thing is untrue, I'm just saying that until this happens, I'm not going to prioritize a Dan Harden seminar over other opportunities (holidays with my family, for example).

So far, all I have seen is people making claims on the Internet, and a relatively small number of people jumping on to back up those claims. I know that IHTBF, but if there were some videos of the training or whatever I might be less skeptical.

I am also aware that once a person has made a commitment (travelling to a seminar, training for X number of hours), one becomes invested and is less likely to be critical of it because of the loss of the initial investment that would occur by rejecting it. Take Scientology, for example. If someone invests their life savings and decades of commitment to the "religion", it makes it very difficult for them to think critically about it. There are lots of Scientologists on Internet forums who claim that Scientology is "The Truth" (ring any bells here?), but that doesn't inspire me to run out and join up in order to prove or disprove this for myself.

The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:06 AM   #144
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
If Graham Christian questions 1 and 4 based on his own fairly extensive experience and knowledge as a martial artist...{snip}
Conrad
Speaks for itself.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:25 AM   #145
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
Just to note - no one is saying that Dan's way is the one true way, least of all Dan.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:31 AM   #146
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It would in fact be a good exercise for people to inspect what their agenda is rather than say they don't have one.
What is your agenda, Graham?

It seems you want to be the standard bearer for an art in which you have pretty much zilch for experience.

If not that, then what?

Best to you, bud

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:37 AM   #147
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Hugh,

I completely agree with you. Anyone can go to a seminar and judge for themselves. It's not at all like having to travel to the south pole!

In my case, I don't have any teachers or personal acquaintances that have come back from a Dan Harden seminar to say IHTBF. I'm not saying that the whole thing is untrue, I'm just saying that until this happens, I'm not going to prioritize a Dan Harden seminar over other opportunities (holidays with my family, for example).

So far, all I have seen is people making claims on the Internet, and a relatively small number of people jumping on to back up those claims. I know that IHTBF, but if there were some videos of the training or whatever I might be less skeptical.

I am also aware that once a person has made a commitment (travelling to a seminar, training for X number of hours), one becomes invested and is less likely to be critical of it because of the loss of the initial investment that would occur by rejecting it. Take Scientology, for example. If someone invests their life savings and decades of commitment to the "religion", it makes it very difficult for them to think critically about it. There are lots of Scientologists on Internet forums who claim that Scientology is "The Truth" (ring any bells here?), but that doesn't inspire me to run out and join up in order to prove or disprove this for myself.

The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
I figured that the stuff Dan was talking about was either:

a) some interesting methods/tricks/etc that would be handy
b) something which was inflated beyond it's purported effects

I ummed and ahhed and wondered about it, an easy thing to do when I wasn't about to swim across the pond to check and I'm too poor for a speculative holiday.

I happened to stumble across the notice for a UK seminar, thought about it and decided that I would go for a weekend away and invest that time to see for myself what the fuss was.

Let's be clear, I largely expected to come away feeling robbed of a weekend (sorry Dan!)... reality was far far from that - it's something that is a fascinating thing to take and run with.

You're faced with two choices; pretending that you can put the genie back in the bottle and acquire selective amnesia or accept that there are skill sets that really can be focused on, developed and deployed into your martial arts.

There is a danger when discussing it because there are phrases such as "move from centre" that people would jump on with "we do that already!" possibly... that depends on what you mean by it. It's easy to see how you could take a dozen sound bites from a workshop with Dan and have other people (devoid of the face time and hands on comparison) who would state confidently that it was already in their repertoire but the devil is in the details; what do these terms mean when we say them? Why are they important? How do we do them?

To believe that the number of people who've seen Dan and the number of people who are/were not just sceptical (as I was) but downright disbelieving and incredulous I simply cannot believe that you can expect we are all just confused/deluded/protecting our "investment".

Where are the posts by people who've met Dan and said there was nothing special?

Considering the assumptions required for 1000 odd people from all manner of arts, from wide levels of skill to all be confused/deluded/worried about appearing foolish Occam's razor suggests that actually we might be right in that perhaps Dan isn't just talking out of his hat.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #148
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Your reasoning, David, is like blaming a woman wearing a skirt for being raped.
Mary, that is a low, unworthy and Foul thing to say.

You have no right to say that and when you do, you seriously undermine your image as a responsible thinker or any kind of serious person.

I demand an apology and I am not kidding!

That is entirely uncalled for, dishonest and insulting.

I want an apology NOW!

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Our responses and actions reflect on those who make them not on those who supposedly provoke them.
Your statement above is a glaring example of exactly that.

There is no excuse for such an insipid comment here.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:44 AM   #149
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Your reasoning, David, is like blaming a woman wearing a skirt for being raped. Our responses and actions reflect on those who make them not on those who supposedly provoke them.
Jun, I think this comment deserves at least a WEEK of suspension. It's absolutely uncalled for here.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 05-29-2012, 10:56 AM   #150
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
The whole Dan Harden / IP phenomenon could be one of three things:
  1. exactly what they say it is
  2. a group of martial artists who have convinced themselves that they have found the one true way when in fact they have found one way out of many (even if it is a very good way)
  3. complete BS
I haven't seen anything to convince me one way or the other, but I think there is a high enough chance of #2 (or maybe #3) that I'm not willing to invest a whole bunch of time, $$ and effort to find out.

Maybe one day my situation will change. I'm not ruling out the possibility.

Conrad
Conrad, it might help you to consider the backgrounds of the people who have met Dan and been incredibly impressed by what he can do and how easily he can teach others to do it. We're talking about people with decades of experience with direct students of Morihei Ueshiba, many of them having lived a number of years in Japan.

On the other side of the argument, who ya got? Graham?

Show me someone with decades of experience and time in Japan who has met Dan and found him lacking. Give me one name, huh?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 

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