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Old 05-25-2012, 01:21 AM   #1
Chris Parkerson
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Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Say folks,

In my own learning curve, my training partner Bill Dockery and I have discovered what I guess you would call an inner seam. Is anyone else practicing such a technique? Please chime in.

It is like a new wold (ashes, ashes, we all fall down).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgGjrbxABs
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:00 AM   #2
Michael Varin
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Can we please get back to some halfway serious posts?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:12 AM   #3
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Can we please get back to some halfway serious posts?
Seriously!? Why not start your own thread with this comment rather than taking up space on this thread?

Lyle Laizure
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:14 AM   #4
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Say folks,

In my own learning curve, my training partner Bill Dockery and I have discovered what I guess you would call an inner seam. Is anyone else practicing such a technique? Please chime in.

It is like a new wold (ashes, ashes, we all fall down).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgGjrbxABs
The video didn't play well on my computer so I could not see what is going on.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:52 AM   #5
philipsmith
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

I'm a little skeptical about "new" methods of Aikido.

IMHO it's just a variation of unbalancing - there's loads of ways to move someones centre and the more experienced you are the more ways you find.

To me this type of training is no substitute for technique (and yes I have trained like his with various instructors)
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:02 AM   #6
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
The video didn't play well on my computer so I could not see what is going on.
I am shifting Bill's center to his far leg, then dropping down his inner thigh
instead of taking the technique to a point outside his base. His hip gets locked and then his structure implodes into itself rather than falling over itself.

Now I have experimented with toppling people on points all around what George Leydyard calls the seam; perhaps even identifying 100 points of throw in specific. But this was new to me in the sense that I did not use the ikkyo curve or seam to make the throw happen.

It made me wonder, is there an "inner seam" and how many points of throw does it contain?
Perhaps this clip is a decent contrast. The first throw is an implosion, the second and third are
throws over traditional points on the outer seam using ikkyo curve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9oMh...e_gdata_player

Gratitude to all who care to respond,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-25-2012 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:34 AM   #7
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
The video didn't play well on my computer so I could not see what is going on.
Lyle, I am sorry that the first video did not play well. I had a hard time downloading it off my Iphone and transferring it as well. I hope the second video was more legible.

peace,

Chris
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #8
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Whoa. There is a problem with this kind of approach. You are talking about subtle energies here. I have no doubt that your partner wants to feel the subtle energy, and is being as cooperative as possible.

This gives us two possible answers to what we are seeing.

A: You've discovered something worth researching

B: Your partner wants you to discover something worth researching, so he's adding a lot to what's happening.

If "A" is what happened, you'll have to start testing your findings against less and less cooperative subjects, that is if you are interested in using your findings in a martial context(a naturally noncooperative environment). The problem you will start to get here, is the less cooperative your partner, the more challenging it will be for you to do it. This may lead to the very real possibility that even if you have found something, it cannot be done with much effect on a noncooperative person, or that you may never get the opportunity (because of the required movement) to do this on a noncooperative person.

With this we must also ask, what type of context do you see this type of move being useful in? In a martial context where you are using surprise as your modus operandi, you may not need to worry about things like challenging movement, because you plan to surprise you attacker with it. But will this have an effect on someone who you surprise with the action? If you believe this to be true, then you'll have to begin research on people who don't know this is coming. The also leads to a problem of, can you do this fast enough to "surprise" someone, or does doing this take to long.

If "B" is true (your partner wants it to happen so badly that he is actually doing all the work), then you don't have anything further to research, at least as far as your original premise goes.

In my opinion you need to do much more research before we could even begin to draw any conclusions about what we are seeing. If you would like any further feedback from the Aikido community as a whole, I would make a montage type video, showing you performing this on at least 10 different subjects, with varying amounts of resistance and surprise. Choosing subjects who have had limited interaction with you, from various walks of life would be ideal. Getting any real findings on subtle energy is very hard, because of it's subtle nature.

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Old 05-25-2012, 04:09 PM   #9
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Hi Chris Hein,

Actually the skills are an extension of small circle techniques I have used and tested.
Indeed, my competitive push hand bout with Tim Hwang required much smaller circles than these.
That was a great venue for learning as he has great skill in hiding his center of gravity and posture.
In bodyguard work, it is true, I sneak up on a target, not using speed - but using same pace of movement and sympathetic motion.

My uke is being "neutral". He is neither trying to punk me nor is he just going into the ukemi. You can tell this by watching closely. He doesn't get Ahead of me and his giggle is one of releasing mental tension in a mild form of bewilderment.
This recording was nearly the first time I pulled it on him.

My ultimate goal is to be able to do this with the flat side of my tactical folding knife. Using the
outward seam and ikkyo curve is easy for me these days. And doing so with the side of a live
blade does not cut uke. thus, it leaves compassionate options intact.

The strategy is influenced by Yanagi - whose art stresses thwarting attacks by making the Ike unstable, creating angles where they cannot attack back, and causing them to fall on your blade. Thus
you see in the neck throw (Kiri Tori) my knife remains on the uke - gutting him and castrating or
cutting his femoral artery. My arm is not rising to help the throw. It is following uke with a long filet.

The final throw is my knife to the kidney throw. It also can be a knife to the brachial artery throw.

I am not sensitive enough to make the inner seam throw (implosion) with my wooden tanto yet. But soon..... : )

Thanks for you input.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-25-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:24 PM   #10
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Hi Chris P, I appreciate your video as a first step and I hope you take Chris H's advice, partially just because I would love to see it! But mostly because I think he is right-on in terms of how to progress. There is a big difference between someone who doesn't know what is coming but is open to it, versus someone who doesn't want to go to the floor.

At any rate, I think what you are playing with is also represented in several videos, such as Ikeda sensei's videos. The compilation from the 2007 summer camp for instance shows a lot of it. I think each person who shows things like this might explain it differently or parse it differently in their mind-- you calling it an “inner seam” in reference to Ledyard sensei's ikkyo seam I think is one good way to phrase it.

Personally, I think of things in terms of yin/yang, and in terms of connection. In other words, there are 2 opposite directions of connection, one towards the attacker (compressive direction) and one from the attacker (tensile direction). If you increase pressure so that he has to step/stumble backward, you are loading the compressive direction. If you create vacuum so that he comes toward you, you are loading the tensile direction.
So, an ikkyo that sucks uke in makes heavier use of the tensile connection, and an ikkyo that projects uke out makes heavier use of the compressive connection. Any functional ikkyo will use both, and I think the positional and directional extremes of those 2 connections represent what you call inner and outer seams.
My point is-- I think any good ikkyo is using what you call the inner seam, but is using it together with the “outer seam.” Here, you are showing it in relative isolation. So from that point of view you are using only 1 of 2 essential tools when you highlight it like that-- good for demo, bad for application. But that's important, because I wouldn't hope to be good at using any tool in combination with others unless I worked with it on its own, to get a feel for it.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:21 PM   #11
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Thanks Jonathan.

Namaste,

Chris Parkerson
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:21 PM   #12
graham christian
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Hi Chris.
Never use the terms you describe but understand your explanation. I can only give you my experience which may or may not relate. Having said that when seeing this with your explanation it does remind me of when I have met some who do certain things similar and I can't help translating it into a simplicity. (once again, just how I relate in my way)

When you mention center and moving his center to a specific location, outside what seems to be from what you say 'the norm' I see basically one thing, something I used to practice a long time ago with Ki development exercises.

We used to practice diligently the principles laid down by Tohei and this reminds me of all the advanced exercises we did with 'one point.' The point here is we did them to the point of being able to put one point anywhere and observe the various effects.

Now I will take time to explain something for you so that you can see where I am coming from.

I teach one point is different to center. I teach one point is first taught the same as center but later that it is in fact different and is a created thing. Thus center is center and is always center and cannot be moved. One point is a discipline, something you create and use from center and later from wherever you want.

Now, Ki extending from center is thus always stable and from the same point always. The difference being is that when another may be trying to move my center or do what they usually call kazushi and find they cant do it is because I know center cant be moved. Your attention can be moved off of center, your mind can be moved off of center etc. but the conclusion most come to is that they moved your center. Not true in my book.

So back to the point. The practice or advanced practice of 'one point' and the theory of was to do with what you could call basic mechanics, albeit spiritual or if some prefer to call it, mental. This basic mechanic, not body mechanics, is not unlike what is known in physics and energy. Energy travels from one terminal to another, point 'a' to point 'b'. The other factor involved is space, distance. There has to be a distance for a flow or 'current' in elctricity for example between the two terminals to occur. From 'positive' to 'negative' as they describe it in elctrical terms.

So basically for energy to flow it needs a stable point to flow to. So do you see where I'm going with this?

By putting a point, one point, somewhere very specific then your Ki will flow to it. Basic mechanics. From your center to that point. Add to that other things like you can thus lead their mind to that point or their attention or even their one poit then I think you get where I am coming from.

Just Ki development exercises we used to do and still do that I thought may add a little something to your enquiry.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:55 PM   #13
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Graham,

I experience that a center of gravity can be moved. in fact it can come right out of the body. Look at high jumpers who use the Fossbery Flop. Arching their back over a pole, their center of gravity is actually below the pole.

Perhaps my physics is at 6th grade level, but it has provided me with an ability to reverse-engineer a portion of the Ropokai (Okamoto) techniques.

But I do thank you for sharing your use of "One Point" and how it relates to your model.

Thanks for your input. : )

Chris
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:06 PM   #14
graham christian
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

I agree Chris. Center of gravity yes. Just terminology and my ways of seeing but center to me is similar to but not actually center of gravity.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:28 PM   #15
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

When the COG travels out of the base (stance) and the structure (skeleton) is unstable, all you need to do is drop some weight on that spot.

Once I employed this model for a couple of years, (follow the bouncing ball), I quickly moved beyond technique. Biped tipping became rather easy. The Ikkyo curve and Seams (full rim of the base stance)
Was a good model for sensing where and when to drop the weight.

Then I got softer, like a massuer tricking his subject into letting him penetrate deeper into their body. Less force produced more effect - even against resistance.

Kuzushi became pivoting (floating) uke at the base of his feet - bypassing his strength. And if he reacted, it was easy to find the next hole in the posture. Again, less was more. I learned to apply subtle force and if it met resistance, I redirected it where the next hole was.

Then, kuzushi wend beyond the floor and feet. I started creating 3 dimensional throws at will from many points in space - all with the exterior seam and ikkyo curve.

Finally, I began sensing how to implode the posture into weak spots inside the stance. This takes much more sensitivity and redirection when resistance is encountered. And resistance happens even when uke is trying to be neutral.

Now, I hope to discover how many places I can lead the resistive momentum uke feeds me. If small circle throwing like Ropokai uses "an inch" of touch along with the outer seam, the inner seam stuff needs at least half that from my experience so far, "less is more". And remaining disciplined only happens if you can trust that less is more.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:12 PM   #16
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Perhaps some examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hn60...e_gdata_player

One with some resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS9gh...e_gdata_player

One with high resistance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1G3A...e_gdata_player
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:25 AM   #17
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Inner seam/ outer seam - very nice analogy instead of resorting to COG and BOS nomenclature and conveys the idea well. Wondering of course that when weight is transferred to a single leg that perhaps both inner and outer seams are outer seams ..but i get the idea...nice

Last edited by danielajames : 05-26-2012 at 04:29 AM.

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Old 05-26-2012, 06:13 AM   #18
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Inner seam/ outer seam - very nice analogy instead of resorting to COG and BOS nomenclature and conveys the idea well. Wondering of course that when weight is transferred to a single leg that perhaps both inner and outer seams are outer seams ..but i get the idea...nice
Funny how we all create nomenclature that is meaningful to ourselves and hopefully to others. The uke in these clips is Bill Dockery. He would call what I am doing "crunch box" and "stretch box" - referring to what a cereal box looks like when one side is compromised. In fact, Bill wrote a book about his experience as uke when Moe Stevens and I started collaborating.

http://www.aikisecrets.com/index_files/Page497.htm

One of the models Bill came up with was his understanding of Baqua and palm changes. In fact, that one really spoke to me was simply "closing the Kua of uke's far hip" makes for some great air throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opcmn...e_gdata_player
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Old 05-26-2012, 07:36 AM   #19
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Hi Guys,
Inner seams/outer seams ? Are we practicing aikido or training to be tailors in Oxford St London??Personally I like designing trilbys/gents jodhpurs and as a side line a subtle line of S/M /bondage evening .wear.The last lot is worn at intimate dinner parties with a few friends.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:22 PM   #20
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Guys,
Inner seams/outer seams ? Are we practicing aikido or training to be tailors in Oxford St London??Personally I like designing trilbys/gents jodhpurs and as a side line a subtle line of S/M /bondage evening .wear.The last lot is worn at intimate dinner parties with a few friends.Cheers, Joe.
You just inspired me to experiment doing big arial throws on adults clad in chain mail and armor. "seams" like a new challenge. Pun fully intended.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #21
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Guys,
Inner seams/outer seams ? Are we practicing aikido or training to be tailors in Oxford St London??Personally I like designing trilbys/gents jodhpurs and as a side line a subtle line of S/M /bondage evening .wear.The last lot is worn at intimate dinner parties with a few friends.Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe

Do you also do a nice range of coloured Aiki dancing ribbons ?
And a nice pair of open toe shoes for toe breathing would sell well.
Henry
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:59 PM   #22
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Funny how we all create nomenclature that is meaningful to ourselves and hopefully to others. The uke in these clips is Bill Dockery. He would call what I am doing "crunch box" and "stretch box" - referring to what a cereal box looks like when one side is compromised. In fact, Bill wrote a book about his experience as uke when Moe Stevens and I started collaborating.

http://www.aikisecrets.com/index_files/Page497.htm
Neato...some of those diagrams look familiar ...


Aikiphysics II - biomechanics of throwing (musings on the topic and a work in progress )
I wonder if Bill would be amenable to conversation?

best,
dan

Last edited by danielajames : 05-26-2012 at 04:04 PM.

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Old 05-26-2012, 06:07 PM   #23
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Neato...some of those diagrams look familiar ...

Aikiphysics II - biomechanics of throwing (musings on the topic and a work in progress )
I wonder if Bill would be amenable to conversation?

best,
dan
I am sure he would. I miss that guy. Tell him Hi for me.
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:21 PM   #24
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Neato...some of those diagrams look familiar ...

Aikiphysics II - biomechanics of throwing (musings on the topic and a work in progress )
I wonder if Bill would be amenable to conversation?

best,
dan
I liked your term "freezing the base". Did you get it from the Indonesian arts? I have seen silat and Kali traditions talk about pocking in a way that causes the opponent to have to "unstick" themselves and find another angle of attack. One system called it "Old Man's hand". So I did what I do and the guri said, "Yes, that's it."
All paths lead to the same root I guess. The difference I have noted is in the manner in which
Tori causes weight to be dropped onto uke's frame. Many try to do this by using muscle to push
with. My experience with this method is that you rely on short leverage and upper body.
But if you use a series of relaxation ( thighs, pelvis, rhomboids, shoulders, humerus, then forearms) long leverage is applied, gravity and momentum aided by your mass and the earth, create great weight without effort or over commitment.

This is how I also deposit weight on the inside seam. Any reflection on this from your experience?

Peace

Chris

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-26-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:56 AM   #25
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Re: Outer Seams and Ikkyo Curve (OK) but Inner Seams???

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Joe

Do you also do a nice range of coloured Aiki dancing ribbons ?
And a nice pair of open toe shoes for toe breathing would sell well.
Henry
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
Dear Henry,
These could be best sellers.not making a sous from Aikido , so maybe designing floral outfits /colourful accessories might help my balance of payments.Might even donate to the Greek economy in exchange for a bag of olives/pitta brad and feta cheese.Getting tired of munching doughnuts. Joe.
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