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Old 04-06-2012, 07:32 AM   #76
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Not questions, Lars, but more like reminders to myself and our club as to why we practice the aikido weapons. That is, "are we demonstrating proper balance, are we demonstrating proper angles and are we demonstrating proper breathing?"

The second set of questions are the focus of our traditional weapons (Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu) classes. Here, it's all about the teacher-student relationship ... the pressing teacher, never giving the student a chance to relax ... and the yielding student, ever-watchful, always responding to the teacher's attacks ... and then nothingness, the zero state, those times when the teacher and student are one.

If ever I pose a question in a post, it's always to myself.

Cheers,
Ok, thanks for explaining. How do you incorporate Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu into your practice ?
I know maybe itīs a bit of a broad question, but I think itīs interesting because I have been wondering to try more "traditional" weapons practice to get a broader understanding of sword work.
Thanks
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:17 PM   #77
bothhandsclapping
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

We keep them separate ... aikido is aikiken and aikijo. The traditional sword and staff are separate. While some aikido students train in the traditional weapons, not all.

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Old 04-12-2012, 12:06 AM   #78
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
We keep them separate ... aikido is aikiken and aikijo. The traditional sword and staff are separate. While some aikido students train in the traditional weapons, not all.
I did som qi gong practise some years ago and it made me conscious about how I align my hipbone with my spine.. my stance, how deep it is.. how to (try and) relax the shoulders, the knees, overall weight distribution...small adjustments, small improvements I guess.. refining the basic stance and movements..
Maybe you have similar experiences with your other weapons practise that inspired you to look at your aikido in other ways than usual..
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:52 AM   #79
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

At the school I train at Tanto (Knife) and Double Tanto are required for Shodan. Yari (spear) is to come when I am more advanced. Unfortunately we will not be taught Bokken or Sword, primarily because my instructor was not taught them. We would welcome anyone to teach us. It is something to see.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:34 AM   #80
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Mathew,

You have some very prominent Aikido senseis and shihans in your home country who knows traditional aikido weapons extremely well. Like Pat Hendricks, Bill Witt, Hans Goto, David Alexander, Stephanie Yap, Miles Kessler, Mark Larson,Vincent Salvatore and many more. If they canīt explain that to you.. well.. I guess nobody can.

Peace
Lars
Hi Lars, Dont forget Chiba Sensei /Shibata Sensei .Cheers Joe. ps check out Birran online [Youtube ].
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:28 PM   #81
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Kenneth Hannah wrote: View Post
At the school I train at Tanto (Knife) and Double Tanto are required for Shodan. Yari (spear) is to come when I am more advanced. Unfortunately we will not be taught Bokken or Sword, primarily because my instructor was not taught them. We would welcome anyone to teach us. It is something to see.
What is the name of your school? Sounds amazing.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:30 AM   #82
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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What is the name of your school? Sounds amazing.
Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo in Tampa, Florida. Our Instructor is Phil Van Treese Shihan (Hachidan) and we are learning Tomiki. Phil was a student of Kenji Tomiki (who was his Judo instructor as well) and has trained and taught all over the world. I am truly honored to be Phil shihan's student and represent him when I go to seminars. How about you? Where do you train?
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:29 PM   #83
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Kenneth Hannah wrote: View Post
Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo in Tampa, Florida. Our Instructor is Phil Van Treese Shihan (Hachidan) and we are learning Tomiki. Phil was a student of Kenji Tomiki (who was his Judo instructor as well) and has trained and taught all over the world. I am truly honored to be Phil shihan's student and represent him when I go to seminars. How about you? Where do you train?
I run an independent dojo in Jacksonville, Florida. I teach the Aikido and Kali classes. We also offer Kenjutsu and Iaido. I teach Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo alongside with everyone else. I'll be sure to look you up if I'm ever in the area. Please feel free to stop in if you are ever in Jacksonville.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:31 AM   #84
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Hi Lars, Dont forget Chiba Sensei /Shibata Sensei .Cheers Joe. ps check out Birran online [Youtube ].
I wonīt, but this is the lineage I study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=21y32ASY3Sw

Enjoy !

Lars
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Old 05-26-2012, 08:45 AM   #85
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
I wonīt, but this is the lineage I study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=21y32ASY3Sw

Enjoy !

Lars
Hi Lars,
As it happens Chiba Sensei [as did most everybody] considered Saito Sensei a great man.Have you read Chiba Senseis eulogy in relation to Saito Sensei passing on the net?The volumes relating to Saito Sensei [Takemusu aiki]did much to bring knowledge of Riai to early 70s Aikidoka.So in a nutshell I personally admire Saito Sensei and his legacy.However Saito Sensei , great as he may have been, does not imo have all the answers.There are a few innovators in Aikiken /Aikijo still active.I simply mentioned two other Shihan. No more no less. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:28 PM   #86
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Autrelle Holland wrote: View Post
I run an independent dojo in Jacksonville, Florida. I teach the Aikido and Kali classes. We also offer Kenjutsu and Iaido. I teach Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo alongside with everyone else. I'll be sure to look you up if I'm ever in the area. Please feel free to stop in if you are ever in Jacksonville.
Please do, we are always welcome to new things. Look forward to future meeting.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:39 PM   #87
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Hi Lars,
We do a bit of weapons stuff too, so I guess I'll jump in here and share some. We have seven jo kata, two bokken, seven tanto, and several paired sets. We also have some renzoku waza/drills, and solo rezoku. There is also a killer, ju no kumi tanto, which is a ten set pairing we have to learn for shodan....both as uke and shite. Its brutal for later on tests because it be called as a previous technique....got to love it when sensei calls a previous technique that is basically 20 movement set, lol. Anyway, I looked through my youtube manager and found one of the kumi tanto jo pairings....can't recall the name of it, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Gg-KZ3ykc

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:54 PM   #88
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Actually, just found this...way more appropriate to the discussion. So when my teacher went off on his own to start his organization he felt there were way too many weapons techniques in the curriculum. Because of this he made a separate class, named it Aiki Buki, for those wishing to spend more time with in-depth study of weapons. The movements are altered from their original weapons styles to be more of a training tool for aikido (you will notice some adaptations of stances and maai) than for learning practical fighting with weapons. Our regular aikido syllabus retains an atypically large amount of weapon work, but much of it was cut out and put in a separate syllabus for those interested in more weapons training. Anyway, here is a clip of the opening introduction to one of our in-house training/curriculum tapes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSgCsvnsdc

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:41 PM   #89
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Actually, just found this...way more appropriate to the discussion. So when my teacher went off on his own to start his organization he felt there were way too many weapons techniques in the curriculum. Because of this he made a separate class, named it Aiki Buki, for those wishing to spend more time with in-depth study of weapons. The movements are altered from their original weapons styles to be more of a training tool for aikido (you will notice some adaptations of stances and maai) than for learning practical fighting with weapons. Our regular aikido syllabus retains an atypically large amount of weapon work, but much of it was cut out and put in a separate syllabus for those interested in more weapons training. Anyway, here is a clip of the opening introduction to one of our in-house training/curriculum tapes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSgCsvnsdc
Hi Adam,
Thats interresting, I have never seen a "jo tai tanto" kata before. How do you apply those principles to tai jutsu ?
Cheers
Lars
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Old 06-04-2012, 05:53 AM   #90
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-04-2012, 09:42 AM   #91
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the good explanation, itīs quite impressive I must say !
Do you practise Yoshinkan Aikido ?
Regards,
Lars
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:12 PM   #92
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Lars,

Thanks Lars, I hope you would find it interesting given your inquiry about various weapons forms. We use a litany of kumi buki.

Naming of our weapons pairing techniques are pretty simple; "Kumi Weapon A, Weapon B, First movement, Last movement." So, for example, "Kumitachi Kote giri Kote Osae" is a kihon buki waza that pairs sword vs sword starting with a wrist cut and finishing with a wrist control. Or "Kumitachi Jo Kote Sando giri" is a sword vs jo pairing that involves wrist cut three times.

These movements were changed slightly from their original forms and altered slightly to adhere to basic principals of our aikido training. More extension, our particular stances, and most importantly spiritual training (ie 'harder training' since its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard).

To answer your question a little more specifically I will say that varied length kumibuki are my favorite weapons techniques. Pairing a tanto against a sword or jo really teachers a student to move confidently; a student with appropriate ma'ai and timing who is moving in and out of the danger ranges of a student with a jo can really get good training in their aikido principals and train a budo spirit. If I want to see how serious a fellow student is, I pay attention to how they go about their weapons work. If they lazily slap sticks with their partner, don'y fully lock into the stance from 'step one' before transitioning to 'step two' then I have a bit of a gauge of what training means to them (or myself).

Specific application to 'tai jutsu.' So we don't really have the famous 'four/five principals of aikido' as staple specifically talked about in our training. We are guided to be aware of other martial arts styles and organizations, so we are aware of these principals, but we do not use them as 'taught training methods.' Rather than telling a student to 'extend ki,' we require specific body posture and movement that will result in appropriate application of ki. Or rather than saying 'keep weight underside' students are required to have a specific orientation of heads/shoulders/hips that result in weight being 'underside' or centered. And, of course, movement and transitioning from position to position while maintaining these appropriate postures is key for hand techniques when training buki waza. Thanks again for your interest...all the best!

hope that wasn't worded too poorly!
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the good explanation, itīs quite impressive I must say !
Do you practise Yoshinkan Aikido ?
Regards,
Lars
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:52 PM   #93
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Lars,
my federation has Yoshinkan aikido influence, among others, but our weapons forms mostly stand apart and are derived from other weapon arts. Take care,
Osu!
Adam

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:22 AM   #94
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Lars,
my federation has Yoshinkan aikido influence, among others, but our weapons forms mostly stand apart and are derived from other weapon arts. Take care,
Osu!
Adam
Which weapons forms does your weapons practise derive from ?
Do you practise emptyhanded jo, tanto, tachi dori in your particular style ?
Onegaishimasu !
Lars
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:28 AM   #95
hughrbeyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
... its a little safer to go all out with weapons training than aikido hand techniques..so we can really push focus and go hard
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:33 AM   #96
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:29 PM   #97
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:37 PM   #98
sakumeikan
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan
Dear Dan
Hip hip hooray!! I agree with you here.Could there by chance we are drawing closer in respect of a common viewpoint?Answers on a 100$ bill , please . Cheers, Joe.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #99
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan
I love those vids of Otake showing a kata then explaining 'of course, with real weapons you would never do it like this ... for the sake of training, etc' (paraphrased). Some folks must have had the sound turned down and only saw the kata but never heard the explanation.

I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that for the sake of safety the baby has been chucked out with the bath water.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:58 PM   #100
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons...
Hey! I resemble that remark!
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