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Old 05-17-2012, 06:43 AM   #26
Mirubiri
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the pressure at the connection shouldn't change. if it does then you either lost the ground path to the connection point and/or you are shearing the connection. one other thing, make the other person arm your own, i.e. the connection point is your elbow and the other person shoulder is your hand.

dan = dan harden
Phi, that the pressure shouldn't change doesn't mean that is no pressure at all, right?. Im saying this because uke sometimes grab and make contact towards me and others only grabs and waits (incorrectly i think, but it is an option for him), so i have to create some initial presure from my feet to grabbing point to change his behaviour. If i have understand your correctly you shouldīt change (or better, you must try to keep) the initial pressure once you have unity trought it when moving, right?.

I will try make other points as connection point instead the place where im grabbed and see what happens. Thanks for the advice.

Another question:

Do you know what are those "neutral points" wich saotome sensei and ikeda sensei talk about. I have seen him explaining in some dvd but not in detail.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:55 AM   #27
phitruong
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Quote:
Alejandro Jimenez wrote: View Post
Phi, that the pressure shouldn't change doesn't mean that is no pressure at all, right?. Im saying this because uke sometimes grab and make contact towards me and others only grabs and waits (incorrectly i think, but it is an option for him), so i have to create some initial presure from my feet to grabbing point to change his behaviour. If i have understand your correctly you shouldīt change (or better, you must try to keep) the initial pressure once you have unity trought it when moving, right?.
initial pressure shouldn't change. when uke pushed to you, then uke closed the gap, i.e. provide a better connection to you. if uke only grabbed then you have to move in to create a good connection. Ikeda sensei called it "no space", solid connection between you and uke, i.e. no slack.

Quote:
Do you know what are those "neutral points" wich saotome sensei and ikeda sensei talk about. I have seen him explaining in some dvd but not in detail.
it's the connection point, i.e. where you and uke touched. it supposed to be force neutral point. when you bring the ground to the connection point, that point should be force neutral.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:05 AM   #28
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Force neutral is really the key. Where do you create momentum/force from?
From relaxing and letting gravity do it. Thus the criptism "weight underside".

Unbendable arm is also key. But is often misunderstood. Consider this diagram.
If you have a vertical structure with a welded pole near it's top and pointing downward at 30 degrees.
If the structure drops downward, the pole also pushes through anything that resists it.

The bottom of the pole is a force neutral point. The dropping of the underside of the structure creates the momentum and the mass yields force.

Bit dropping like this can be efficient only if you drop straight downward ( not at angles). Angles occur as our legs prevent us from dropping straight down. We get in the way of gravity and prevent momentum from occurring. That is another key issue.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:23 AM   #29
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

The "weld" at the connection between the structure and the pole cannot give way.
When translating this model into human terms, the weld is our "force neutral" shoulder. If you use muscle to keep the shoulder from collapsing, it is not force neutral.

Relaxation of the shoulder is also key. Here is a mental image that has worked for me.
If I am standing erect and pretend I am holding two 80 pound dumbbells, my shoulder site back and low in their sockets. Any forward positioning in the socket is muscle tension and interferes with "force neutral."
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #30
Mirubiri
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Force neutral is really the key. Where do you create momentum/force from?
From relaxing and letting gravity do it. Thus the criptism "weight underside".
Agree. I do so when grabbed. The feeling is like letting go the pressure from your feet and putting it where you are grabbed (I donīt know if the "where" is correct), is like having your hips floating around while playing with the contact point. Where i have a hard time is trying to guide my "floating hips" where i want to be in that situation.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Unbendable arm is also key. But is often misunderstood. Consider this diagram.
If you have a vertical structure with a welded pole near it's top and pointing downward at 30 degrees.
If the structure drops downward, the pole also pushes through anything that resists it.
The bottom of the pole is a force neutral point. The dropping of the underside of the structure creates the momentum and the mass yields force.

Bit dropping like this can be efficient only if you drop straight downward ( not at angles). Angles occur as our legs prevent us from dropping straight down. We get in the way of gravity and prevent momentum from occurring. That is another key issue.[/quote]

Totally agree for me i'm experiencing what you are saying.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
The "weld" at the connection between the structure and the pole cannot give way.
When translating this model into human terms, the weld is our "force neutral" shoulder. If you use muscle to keep the shoulder from collapsing, it is not force neutral.

Relaxation of the shoulder is also key. Here is a mental image that has worked for me.
If I am standing erect and pretend I am holding two 80 pound dumbbells, my shoulder site back and low in their sockets. Any forward positioning in the socket is muscle tension and interferes with "force neutral."
I have a relationship of love&hate with the words "relaxation" and "tension".

1. When you say relaxation, people interprets it as loosen his articulations and letting it without any control.

2. When you say "tension" or "muscular force" or "force neutral", people tries to go to (1) "then you have a shoulder-weld with a hinge that cannot control or transmit anything.

I think we need another word to express the kind of state we must have in our body for doing aikido effectively.

I think that i have identify three states; relaxation, tension and muscular power and for me those means:

Relaxation: Having your articulations totally free and loosen. For me this is the opossite of tension and a bad thing

Tension: Having your muscles tense withouth generating any movement of your articulations and thus locking it. For me this is the opposite of relaxation, bad thing too.

Muscular power: Using only the needed muscles in a movement to create or maintaing extension while grabbed or not, this situation lets you to move your articulations to respond to uke's changes. This is what im doing actually if i manage to.

Any thoughts on that?.

Last edited by Mirubiri : 05-17-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:18 PM   #31
hughrbeyer
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

I agree with you on the problems with the term "relax" but if you use "muscular power" the way you propose nobody else in the universe is going to understand you.

Furthermore, everybody who talks about this stuff talks about getting away from muscular power--the quality of movement you are looking for does not feel like using muscles, it feels like dropping muscular force, like you're not doing anything with your muscles.

The tai chi people talk about "softening" the joints instead of relaxing. I find that a useful image--if the joint is soft, it's pliable and flexible--probably not tense or rigid. And I can always work on getting it softer.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #32
Mirubiri
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I agree with you on the problems with the term "relax" but if you use "muscular power" the way you propose nobody else in the universe is going to understand you.
You are right "muscular power" is not a good term without further explanation. Im trying to find a clearer wording for this. I usually explain it as pushing a rubber band from the inside wich have the other extreme attached/nailed trought your shoulder and to the spine without fully extending your arm (to avoid joint elbow lock and moving shoulder blades tu extend or contract)

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Furthermore, everybody who talks about this stuff talks about getting away from muscular power--the quality of movement you are looking for does not feel like using muscles, it feels like dropping muscular force, like you're not doing anything with your muscles.
But reality is that you are using muscles (only necessary), and this confuses almost everybody.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The tai chi people talk about "softening" the joints instead of relaxing. I find that a useful image--if the joint is soft, it's pliable and flexible--probably not tense or rigid. And I can always work on getting it softer.
MMMM, you give me a good idea. Soft the rubber band but dont let it to reach his initial state!!!!

Last edited by Mirubiri : 05-17-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:13 PM   #33
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

The image of rubber bands is a very useful on for me. For a while I was way too yin; thinking relaxation was like being jelly armed. Then I made a study of bone alignments and how tendons work.

When both flexors and extensors are balanced, bone alignment happens with neither muscle nor tendon working against the balance. This is often cryptically called "non-contention".

If the whole skeletal structure is balanced that way, small flexion and extension movements of the various joints, beginning with the bottom of the feet (metatarsals and plantars) work in sequence and momentum builds. As the saying goes "Good Kung Fu begins at the bottom of the feet, goes through the knees, is directed by the hips and culminates in the hands."

This cumative pattern has been described as a snake traveling through your frame.

It so can be applied in aiki throws simply because force and momentus are at play via long leverage.
A touch, a push, a punch. It is all the same from my experience. Just a question of velocity and intent.

If the leverage is short, uke feels it. If the leverage is long... (The Master's touch is lite as a feather and heavy as a mountain.)

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-17-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #34
Mirubiri
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Re: Exercice to develop sense of center

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
The image of rubber bands is a very useful on for me. For a while I was way too yin; thinking relaxation was like being jelly armed. Then I made a study of bone alignments and how tendons work....
It is encouraging to know that things that I have "discovered" on my own personal training are being used for years. For me it is the best confirmation that a person may have to know that he is on track.
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