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Old 05-13-2012, 12:58 PM   #1
Chris Parkerson
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What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Do you believe traditional Tenkan (a step to the outside of the attacker's body; 180 turn and stepping back once again) be successfully executed in street encounters.

If you believe so, what conditions are present that aid in technical success?

If you do not think so, what conditions are present that prevent technical success?

I would especially love to hear from those who have tried it in a real street encounter. Tell us your story.

I also welcome others who may not have had actual street encounters but train against non-aikido grappling attacks (Judo/Jujitsu/Lua/wrestling/Dumog/Sambo) or percussive attacks (Kenpo/Boxing/stick or knife fighting/tappy drills/ etc.).
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Old 05-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #2
graham christian
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Why not? It should be natural.

When asked these type of questions and when watched them debated then I think it can lead down the wrong path.

For training purposes yes, debate away. But real life? Noooooo, not me.

The reason I say this is in real life you don't have time to think and thus should do what comes naturally.
Therefor to get to a degree of competence where the kata, the drills of how to naturally move the body are second nature then you would be oblivious to how you moved and only in retrospect would go over it in your mind.

Real life situations though I found great for learning although it's one of those funny things that generally you don't want to promote for to me state of mind is far more important and that alone leads to correct action.

So in retrospect if I was to go over the different encounters in real life and then go over exactly which foot movements and body and hand movements etc. I used only then could I answer the question.

I would prefer to say the right Aikido movement manifested in each situation, unpredicted, unplanned and yes some had tenkan in them.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:01 AM   #3
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Graham,

I appreciate your position regarding "no-mind" in action. But doesn't "no-mind" presuppose long hours of training body memory? Thus. Let me try to clarify my question a but.

Long arm Tenkan has a large dynamic sphere in it's kata's protocol. Many folks are suggesting that this tactic needs to be augmented with body-training time in it's shorter or perhaps more subtle versions.

So discussing "no-mind" is not my question. What conditions make traditional Kata Tenkan successful when other adversaries are using a variety of distances, a variety of attack ranges. And non pristine conditions like a cold, dark wet allley on a humid summer night?
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:04 AM   #4
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Do you believe traditional Tenkan (a step to the outside of the attacker's body; 180 turn and stepping back once again) be successfully executed in street encounters.

If you believe so, what conditions are present that aid in technical success?

If you do not think so, what conditions are present that prevent technical success?

I would especially love to hear from those who have tried it in a real street encounter. Tell us your story.

I also welcome others who may not have had actual street encounters but train against non-aikido grappling attacks (Judo/Jujitsu/Lua/wrestling/Dumog/Sambo) or percussive attacks (Kenpo/Boxing/stick or knife fighting/tappy drills/ etc.).
I'm too inexperienced to give any real advice. That said...
I was hoping for some clarification: Do you mean irimi tenkan, or just tenkan? The step, (whether to the inside or outside) constitutes irimi, as far as I know.
My experience is only in using it on the mat and with untrained friends, but the only thing I can think of is to focus on how to carry the weight and body tension such that when the incoming force makes contact with the body, the body is allowed to rotate around the force, regardless of where along the arm contact is being made. This in conjunction with being able to drive from the feet through the body into the point(s) of contact so as to also cause displacement in aite.
...and now that said, i should probably have just sat back and waited to read what others have to say...and with that in mind...
Take care, Chris,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:45 AM   #5
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Thanks Matt for your observations. The primary Tenkan I am interested in is from the outside. Of course, in street encounters or with trained fighters, the two outside rails come together as the opponent's attacks move into his/her own centerline.

I, too, look forward to seeing what other's have experienced.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:36 PM   #6
jonreading
 
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Do you believe traditional Tenkan (a step to the outside of the attacker's body; 180 turn and stepping back once again) be successfully executed in street encounters.

If you believe so, what conditions are present that aid in technical success?

If you do not think so, what conditions are present that prevent technical success?

I would especially love to hear from those who have tried it in a real street encounter. Tell us your story.

I also welcome others who may not have had actual street encounters but train against non-aikido grappling attacks (Judo/Jujitsu/Lua/wrestling/Dumog/Sambo) or percussive attacks (Kenpo/Boxing/stick or knife fighting/tappy drills/ etc.).
In a nutshell, no. We are definitely talking about irrimi tenkan, but I think the traditional kata tenkan is too slow and requires cooperation to be successful. A quicker version of irrimi tenkan is required, but that is fairly successful in more "real" conditions (maybe the success rate of a judo throw). Think more entering slide, tenkai, then step back to make distance. The aiki needs to off-balance your partner before contact. A big issue is that in many cases your partner is actually not over-extending her center when you move so you have to have a great connection.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:50 PM   #7
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Watch American Rules Football or Basketball. The "spin move" is a staple of both games. The spin move is just a tenkan (both irimi and static versions are used). Admittedly, it is used more for evasion - but it definitely gets the other player off balance and off-line of the player executing the spin. So in that context, it clearly works even when the other players know it's coming. From experiences, you have to really practice the spin move to get it to work properly in a game.

Robin

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:10 PM   #8
graham christian
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Graham,

I appreciate your position regarding "no-mind" in action. But doesn't "no-mind" presuppose long hours of training body memory? Thus. Let me try to clarify my question a but.

Long arm Tenkan has a large dynamic sphere in it's kata's protocol. Many folks are suggesting that this tactic needs to be augmented with body-training time in it's shorter or perhaps more subtle versions.

So discussing "no-mind" is not my question. What conditions make traditional Kata Tenkan successful when other adversaries are using a variety of distances, a variety of attack ranges. And non pristine conditions like a cold, dark wet allley on a humid summer night?
Hi Chris. Still not sure what you mean.

I don't see it as a tactic and also I believe all kata are meant to produce body memory. So the thought of augmenting any move with body-training to me is non-sensicle. For those who think so I would say asking the question about street situation is well above their pay grade.

To clarify I would say practice until the movement is natural before you consider such things if anyone asked me. Not so much a matter of being extra good at Aikido or even no mind but rather only asking how to do it in unusual or in life situations after you are comfortable doing it with various people from various distances at various speeds with various amts of force etc. on the mat.

I'm not saying we don't consider such things as we all do right from the beginning but any conclusions when not at least able to do as I quoted above would probably lead to failure.

Also I don't see the terrain question as something to be considered until at a certain competence level either ie: until you are so comfortable with it that you have enough 'zanshin' to take it into account anyway.

I preferred the answer given by Robin who gave an example of where it's used basically in sports routinely. I too like looking at such things to see where the different movements are used in other areas routinely, not necessarily martial arts, to see various situations and what happens. It's probably use in ballet, football (soccer) bullfighting, etc.

A waiter nearly bumped into me once carrying a tray and in turning and aligning and even ending up with hand on his shoulder to steady him would be an example in my mind.

So I still think just practice till it's comfortable so that when anything happens in real life in whatever terrain you have more chance of naturally doing it.

Maybe I'm missing a point still but that's my view anyway.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:41 PM   #9
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Such tenkans are quite similR to Ba Qua palm changes. Only, in Ba Qua, the turning motion is not limited to the large motions of their traditional kata. And they use a subtle "gathering of the opponent's structure (kuzushi) by first "sucking-in" (floating is a good judo synonym) and "spitting-out" (execution of technique) once posture and balance are compromised.

Mifune Judo and Okamoto's Ropokai accomplish much the same effects. I hear Aikido folks talk about "hip wiggle" And some of them are obtaining the same effects. This would be an example of body-memory training. It is not just what your body does, but how each part of your hip wiggle gathers your opponent's balance and posture. Thus, the long arm and even the stances and weight shift can be minimized to a point where they are barely discernible and yet accomplishing great effect.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:54 PM   #10
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

worked fine 4 me when i needed it!
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:22 PM   #11
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
worked fine 4 me when i needed it!
How so?
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:35 AM   #12
graham christian
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Chris, seems like you are genuinely interested if someone has used it, when and how and what happened.

As to me it merely means turning in a pivotal fashion for the sole reason that the front foot was where it was at the time then I can think of many situations and applications in life where I have done so.

Most not being due to being attacked but some fit that bill too.

One for example was when I worked on a market stall in portobello road. After packing up on a winters day, so it was dark, and proceeding to push my loaded trolley back to the storage garage I got surprised by an attempted mugging.

I wore a market pouch, a money bag which you tie around your waist for keeping change in with the pouch at the front. After work I had counted up, stuffed all the notes in a carrier bag and put that in the pouch. Quite loosely, not tucked down or hidden. Someone must have been watching me.

Anyway, as i turned a corner pushing my trolley there was a grab on my neck from behind and hand going down my front into the pouch. I spun round dropping my hand on the wrist entering the pouch. Due to training my weight went down through my hips and my hand and arm had elbow in and weight underside. To an onlooker, as an outside view they said It looked to them like I turned and seemed to sink into the ground. Anyway the result was the other guy was sucked in and down and splatt on his backside on the road.

What I took away from this experience though in retrospect was twofold. 1) A validation of my training. 2) An awareness of all the factors that came into play in that instant and therefor not to tell or teach others that the physical thing called tenkan alone would do what I had done.

Peace. G.
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Old 05-16-2012, 03:16 PM   #13
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Thanks for sharing Graham.
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:00 PM   #14
Gorgeous George
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

This guy talking about realistic self-defence. #Aikido /Thread
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:13 AM   #15
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Thanks Graham. Please Elaborate.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:34 PM   #16
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

We have had several threads recently about what to use in "real" situations (the definition is not elusive to me: a guy, somewhat competent, that in real life -that is, out of the dojo- decides that he must beat the living daylights out of you )

There was some (some) consensus that the best techniques for a real situation are armlocks, followed at some distance by kotegaeshi (why? because a failed armlock normally fails because "uke" energically withdraws his arm - then you have some odds of ending up right with his wrist in your hands). You may also place a sankyo, but the best are by far armlocks.
The worst is iriminage.

Now, let me see if I got your question right: I assume you want to know whether a tenkan can be used in a real situation (I already exclude you meant iriminage).

My personal answer is yes and no.

No, because you don't elude thrusting knives or direct punches at your face with tenkans. It just won't work. It works in dojos, where ukes are slow and one armed. Whoever is frontal to you and thrusts a knife towards your stomach with the real intention to kill you, will get you also if you tenkan - you will not evade it with tenkans - in the best case he will slash you severely all the same. His speed and determination and energy and mobility on feet and hips both is so vastly superior in a real situation, that what we do in dojos with tenkans is fictional once compared to how a real attacker a bit competent (no drunkards, no saturday night idiots - yet not necessarily mike tyson lol) at it behaves.

yes, because it is not that tenkan is useless: rather, it is very powerful: but you can use it in a real situation only after either you have seized one arm or after you have parried and you're set to go lateral. If you produce and armlock, then tenkan reveals all its power. Its real power. You ground, you may cause injuries to an arm by tenkans, you can overcome many resistences.

But in a real situation tenkan is neither for dodging, nor for evasion. It is for projecting.

Incoming arm with intention: just too fast and capable of correcting its trajectory to some degree (at least, in the range a tenkan may try to evade it). Brush it aside with both your arms - violently, lifting the arm upward as if you want to push it against his face. Step forward after you have pushed it aside (pushed aside+stepping forward, basically that's a dissimulated tenkan)and you're set for an armlock.
If he has rechambered the arm (which happens frequently) you're still set to hit him on his face with your elbow (it's an atemi done with the elbow, actually): the next instant you'd have time to manipulate his arm, as soon as you have it secured in your grip, tenkan again at will.

In short: don't evade with tenkan, it won't work in the perfect manner it does on dojos. Parry with your arms, move aside his arm, tenkan to go lateral and close.

I have seen movies where guys tenkan punches. In my personal experience it is impossibile to elude a punch with a tenkan. A punch is just too fast (a quarter of a second to fire and reach you, and then it's half rechambered already- you don't tenkan that stuff) and the margins are too narrow: you need to defend your face in a more traditional manner, with your old fashioned arms. Parry, move his arm away, fight for your path to his side - then tenkan (90, not 180 degrees) to reach such side. Once grabbed his arm, tenkan 180 degrees to ground him. Also 360*3 if you like
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:22 AM   #17
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Thanks Alberto for Sharing your experience.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:54 AM   #18
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
We have had several threads recently about what to use in "real" situations (the definition is not elusive to me: a guy, somewhat competent, that in real life -that is, out of the dojo- decides that he must beat the living daylights out of you )

There was some (some) consensus that the best techniques for a real situation are armlocks, followed at some distance by kotegaeshi (why? because a failed armlock normally fails because "uke" energically withdraws his arm - then you have some odds of ending up right with his wrist in your hands). You may also place a sankyo, but the best are by far armlocks.
The worst is iriminage.
Hey alberto..

I've tried to avoid those threads.....everyones 'real life' in a global forum is just so varied that I feel my comfortable england experience is probably too safe to be of real interest....but it is friday so here are some thoughts you triggered....

Consensus depends very much on those taking part in the voting process? If we restricted voting for presidents to 5 year old...possibly Ronald McDonald would be in charge of USA ...perhaps a thread on this is in order?

Anyway - I do not particularly agree with that consensus and those are not techniques that I've seen deployed outside of dojo over my 35 years in pubs, nightclubs and on city streets ...I can't see myself being concerned with those choices but then again I would never restrict myself to 'techniques' and have no significant interest in them other than as vehicles to train Aikido.

For me personally ...question 1 would be why is this theoretical "somewhat competent out of the dojo guy" attacking me? How did I as a training martial artist and aware human adult allow this to happen? .....In my life it rarely happens. When I'm 'on the street' I look ahead for potential trouble. I am brusque or even totally ignore those that try to engage me on the street and I ensure that I project an attitude that suggests some capability IF cornered. This is my martial arts defence already in play.

In my dealings with all people I am respectful. Everyone is equal and even when I do not like people I am careful not to put them in a position where their only option is to attack me.

So unless someone is totally random, off their heads on drugs, pain, alcohol or mentally disturbed...there is no reason to attack me.

I'm not looking for a fight.
99% of people aren't looking for a fight
Of the 1% that are 99% are looking for a fight they can win against an easy target - that is not me. I'm not saying I'm good or anything like that...I'm just not easy.

So this leaves 1% of 1%....not odds I'm overly concerned with.

However for sake of discussion....

Yes- there have been incidents in my life. Mostly these have been caused by my own mistakes. Drinking to excess as a young man (and older man)...and losing recognition of danger. Easily rectified by moderating public behaviour ...which came with age.

So that leaves extremely rare occasions when perhaps I get cornered by someone agressive. This has happened a few times ...usually in a bar where I can't leave ....or once on the street when I was waiting for a friend at a cash point.

Were the 'opponents' trained competent people? hard to say....if cornered and its clear that action is needed....I'll act. I give them the problem and this works fine. Nothing fancy I'll add. I take the initiative.

I can live with this.

So I 'get in there' ...Irimi is fine for this...maybe not in the irimi nage form you and others see as ineffective...but I get in. Atemi is already coming. Nothing fancy. Just a punch....and another if needed. Until at least 1 registers.

To date that has usually been enough.

If they were competent atacker...well, their opportunity to show it was nipped in the bud.

I do agree on armlocks. When trying for control rather than damage it can happen that the other person gets a shot off. Cover up, lock an arm and grab the throat works nicely here.

This is just my UK based experience. Elsewhere things are different perhaps....but it goes back to lifestyle choice and I simply don't put myself in a position where some trained expert has reason to come for me.

Now...as for the big long arm tenkan described. No...I can't see a time when I would use it.

I'd use some of the things it maybe teaches, but I wouldn't use it and don't even practice or teach it.

For me Aikido is not about the techniques - they are simply convenient tools to express a form that can help the learning process.

Restricting oneself to such rigid structures in a setting where ones opponent is unrestricted is like challenging someone to a horserace and choosing to ride a donkey.

I'm not trying to be some tough guy type - just talking about my experiences. Overriding everything is my view that such stuff is generally a waste of time and not worth anyone getting hurt over.

Regards

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 05-18-2012 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:10 AM   #19
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Thanks Daren.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:48 PM   #20
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

One day, years ago in the UK, I was crossing a road at a junction and was walking behind a car ready to take off. I saw the reversing lights come on as she revved up the engine to go and at that moment I was right behind the car. As the car shot back I put my right hand on the corner of the trunk with a slap and as the car went back I spun around out of the way 360 degrees and carried on walking without looking back.

Now before anyone thinks I am super master, another time, I stepped out in front of a car at traffic lights. I thought is was going to stop as the lights were red but it didn't. I almost managed to step back but it caught my right kneee onthe outside and I did a 360 spin over the top in the air (doubt that counts as tenkan somehow). Did a good breakfall though and was mostly unhurt. Just shaken, literally. (The light was red for turning right, which I had seen, but not for straight on, which I had failed to notice).

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Old 05-19-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
Chris Parkerson
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Re: What is your experience: long-arm Tenkan in "street Defensives"

Great story.
Hart to put a 4 wheeled vehicle into a technique after a perfect tenkan.
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