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Old 05-09-2012, 12:22 AM   #51
dps
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

[[quote=Jackie Adams;308753]
1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.
Quote:
The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.

No attack no Aikido

dps

Last edited by akiy : 05-09-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:52 AM   #52
JanP
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Jackie, tis the judo guy your boyfriend ? ...and by the way a fast Nikyo would do a lot of damage to any wrist.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #53
gregstec
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Um.... sorry....people from Brooklyn know better than to recognize a cheesesteak as something to be desired, or eaten.
Pizza. Pasta fagiole and baked ziti. Deli. Chinese. Middle Eastern. Fresh seafood. Those are foods.
Sheesh.
Yeah, we have all those too; PLUS cheesesteaks
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:04 AM   #54
Cliff Judge
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
How does this continue to work after all these years? It is not that BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu is necessarily "BETTER" than any other martial art. It is simply that BJJers of GJJers have a keen understanding of the standard "fight" environment....better than most. They understand the "ruleset" in which most people will agree to fight under, and they practice the range of combat and skills that will give them a significant advantage to win. Judoka and Sambo Players also are two other examples where you can find guys that understand this. Other non-grappling based arts....well for newbs...and some non newbs too...they don't get it. They simply do not understand the context and applcation of what they do. Many simply also really do not understand the dynamics of what goes on in a real fight.
I think BJJ has adapted to a ruleset that exists in a sweet spot of competitive martial arts where the goal - submission - translates particularly well to other contexts / rulesets (you can submit a Judo player, you can submit a mugger, etc) while the amount of physical damage you inflict is very managable. So a BJJ player competing against a practitioner of another art is going to find it relatively easy to make the other guy play by BJJ rules.

(...and then BJJ people get this attitude that no other martial art is worth anything at all, and I have to endure those fricking videos with the no-touch atemi guy popping up on facebook every year, with "hey isn't this the stuff Cliff does?" inevitable appearing in the comments)

Striking to knockout is the other dominant paradigm, though it is on the other end of the "managable amounts of physical damage" spectrum.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
However, if it is a priority of your's to learn fighting, well you need to study fighting. Want to defeat a boxer..understand boxing.
That is actually the best way for an Aikido guy to beat a practitioner of a competitive martial art - train in that other art for awhile. Then make sure you are the same rank and weight class as the guy you are going to spar with! If you are still practicing Aikido when you do this, then you will be, by definition, using Aikido, because Aikido is a martial way and not just a set of techniques.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:18 AM   #55
phitruong
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

wondered why the aikido guy kept pulling back and stuck his butt out behind? also wonder if he understood the concept of irimi? it's a game of real estate and the aikido guy kept giving up his.

now i wonder if i would look good with a pony tail and a goatee. might be a problem since hairs kept falling off with a case of getting old and all.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:22 AM   #56
Cliff Judge
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.
Nah, the Judoka would just carefully close the distance until they were at a range he was comfortable with. Then he'd get a grip and throw. The Aikido guy is never going to get the committed attack he is used to in training. The Aikido guy is much better off taking the initiative and doing something aggressive that is outside of the Judo box, like striking or something. Of course you might lose friends that way.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:57 AM   #57
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think BJJ has adapted to a ruleset that exists in a sweet spot of competitive martial arts where the goal - submission - translates particularly well to other contexts / rulesets (you can submit a Judo player, you can submit a mugger, etc) while the amount of physical damage you inflict is very managable. So a BJJ player competing against a practitioner of another art is going to find it relatively easy to make the other guy play by BJJ rules.

(...and then BJJ people get this attitude that no other martial art is worth anything at all, and I have to endure those fricking videos with the no-touch atemi guy popping up on facebook every year, with "hey isn't this the stuff Cliff does?" inevitable appearing in the comments)

Striking to knockout is the other dominant paradigm, though it is on the other end of the "managable amounts of physical damage" spectrum.

That is actually the best way for an Aikido guy to beat a practitioner of a competitive martial art - train in that other art for awhile. Then make sure you are the same rank and weight class as the guy you are going to spar with! If you are still practicing Aikido when you do this, then you will be, by definition, using Aikido, because Aikido is a martial way and not just a set of techniques.
good synopsis of the issue Cliff. lol. on the no-touch atemi. It is too bad that BJJers get exposed to aikido guys that can't explain the conditions/context of there practice. THe challenge for me has been to "bridge" between the two practices. That is, in order to show an BJJer the benefits of Aikido, you have to discuss it and demonstrate it in a context that makes sense to him. Hard to do if you don't have at least a "mid-level" grasp of BJJ. Vice versa as well. Hard to demonstrate the value of BJJ to an aikido guy unless you can understand the context/application of aikido principles in BJJ.

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Old 05-09-2012, 09:15 AM   #58
Basia Halliop
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

I wasn't embarrassed or sad watching that video, for most of the reasons others have mentioned (it doesn't really have anything to do with me, I don't know what the ranks of the people are or who trained them, the 'aikido' guy was basically trying to do judo anyway rather than aikido, etc.), but also because I didn't even think there was anything particularly negative about that video, it was just a couple of people trying to learn -- I thought both guys, but especially the aikido guy, were showing a positive approach to learning, being curious, asking questions, trying to get better, trying to see what would work well or not in different situations.

I rather admire someone who will go search out a training partner or situation or set of rules where they're at a disadvantage, for whatever reasons, and play around a bit and see what they can learn from that person.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:45 AM   #59
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Where's the embarrassing part? I guess the title of the video is accurate, but what I see is an aikido guy seeing if he can do anything against a judo guy. You see several times that he has ideas of things he could do, using atemi/etc, but in the context of what they're doing (friendly training/testing) he's obviously not going to do that. Props to him for playing like this.

If you think it's all about kuzushi, what is the aikido guy missing to allow him to get kuzushi on someone clearly intent on downing him? 1000 more reps of ikkyo? 5000 shihonage's? more "hard training"?
Hal Von Luebbert (my judo coach) used to argue with Phil Porter that training harder (till you puke) would not produce any different results. This video is a good case in point. The Aikido man should have learned allot about strategy and adaptation from this encounter.

And the I here t lessons are available to all who watch it.

1) if you cannot get the opponent to give you some juice (look at Tohei's judo aikido rondoris) you may need to adapt your aiki into smaller circles so it will create the juice you need for kuzushi.

2) if you resort to pulling on an opponent's sleeve, collar or torso, you are doing judo. The same grips can be used, but you must push from behind. Age-sage, placing your center at the conjunction point of the push (behind/under) must be a subtle process.

3) kata teaches principles that are expressed most often by going through 3 joints -( shoulder, elbow and wrist). Use the same principles by going throughout the torso or shoulders only. Yes, the aiki looks like Mifune's judo. But that is aiki under these conditions.

4. Learn what Sensei Ledyard calls seems and the Ikkyo curve. You cannot get kuzushi on a trained grappler sloping. Every effort must be on the seam.

Just my observations from a few years playing similar experiments.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:54 AM   #60
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
wondered why the aikido guy kept pulling back and stuck his butt out behind? also wonder if he understood the concept of irimi? it's a game of real estate and the aikido guy kept giving up his.
Funny, when you pull back on an immovable object ( when you separate centers) you end up with you but going back. You can only keep posture if the object moves or if you close centers. Belly to belly is still aiki. But you Gotha create instability in the spine and bleeds the instability along the seem or you are just using linear force. We need to experiment training circular force at the belly to belly range.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:15 AM   #61
phitruong
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
We need to experiment training circular force at the belly to belly range.
ya, we called it "huggy waza", as in, go in and hug the other bugger and see if you break his balance. sumo anyone? didn't Takeda sumo when he was young?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:25 AM   #62
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

The main difference between the Judo and Aikido guys in the video is they were trained for encounters at different distances. As close as they were in the video the Judo guy had the advantage. If they were further apart and the Judo guy had to step across a larger distance to attack, the Aikido guy would be better able to use Aikido technique.

No attack no Aikido

dps
I don't think distance is really the issue. Your statement seems to be that an attacker with more momentum than the judo guy had would be easier for the aikido guy to deal with. Well sure. Try a higher momentum attack on a judo player sometime. I think they'll also be pretty comfortable with that attack.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:45 PM   #63
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Mark,

You said, "I don't think distance is really the issue. Your statement seems to be that an attacker with more momentum than the judo guy had would be easier for the aikido guy to deal with. Well sure. Try a higher momentum attack on a judo player sometime. I think they'll also be pretty comfortable with that attack."

Would you tell us more about your experience with this. What kind of momentum and what techniques do you use to make it happen in "huggy waza"?
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:04 PM   #64
Aikibu
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Well I hope everyone watched the clip I posted of Tohei. Since he seems to use "belly to belly" stuff. Also it's telling that questions about Aikido's "effectiveness" go back 60 years. LOL I don't think the clip of Aikido vs Judo guy is in anyway representative of Randori... they were just playing, and our Aikido friend in the clip had a nice pony tail but that's about it as far as demonstrating any semblance of technique. He did show Atemi on a couple of occasions but I would not allow a Judoka to grab and hold me and push me into an opening. Instead of entering the Aikidoka is always backing away allowing the Judoka to control his center. In the Tohei clip the moment the grappler makes contact with Tohei he presents an opening and Tohei immediately begins to counter which frustrates the grappler and makes him more aggressive while Tohei just allows him to enter everytime with the same result. any hold the grappler has on Tohei is just used against him. One could suggest that in that sense that is the way Judo is supposed to work too. Nishio Shihan (and I) studied Judo ( He was a 4th Dan me a 2nd Dan) and we're technically able to counter Judo...

It's just a matter of being able to execute and again that's on me.

William Hazen
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:13 PM   #65
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Nah, the Judoka would just carefully close the distance until they were at a range he was comfortable with. Then he'd get a grip and throw. The Aikido guy is never going to get the committed attack he is used to in training. The Aikido guy is much better off taking the initiative and doing something aggressive that is outside of the Judo box, like striking or something. Of course you might lose friends that way.
Funny how a knife attacker would thoroughly change the traditional judo man's style. If he did not compensate, a Silat or eskrima knife cuts him at every entry and cuts him at every attempt at a finishing move. I am not talking about restricted knife Kata. I am talking about the man who knows knives.

Similarly, aiki came from the tactics of samurai who used long (comparatively heavy) blades. The
moves and entries compensate for the presence of these blades in most traditional kata. This has often been a sticking point for me (pun fully intended). My aiki works great with a blade in my
hand. And I am happy to rondori with most any style under these conditions.
I study and practice 6 different arts. Yes, I am a bit of a fanatic. But aiki strategy is not about
besting a different style by becoming the best practitioner of it. Strategy is about looking at their
training practices, picking up on their silent assumptions, and changing the terrain so that the bulk
of what they train in get's shut down from the get go.
The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.

Kali players love the medio and corto range, training tappy tappy drills. If you can crash their line
by touching center and create kuzushi, you can bypass this tactical strength. Then your throw
must be a fight stopper as you continue to cut the falling opponent.
Aiki is a strategy. Atemi (contact or just maneuvering to shut down an angle, zone or intent)
dominates an opponents mistakes and openings.
Judo man? Standing knee breaks and fighting from the flank (Russian 2 on 1 grips) with a knife in one hand thoroughly confuses the traditionalist. Add 3 knives (2 to throw and 1 to go) to crask his carefully planned contact and he'll likely be be thoroughly confused.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-09-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:25 PM   #66
Aikibu
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Well Chris... Knives are a wholly different paradigm and I know I don't train enough with them since I left the service. Hopefully one of these days we'll hookup and practice together.

William Hazen
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:02 PM   #67
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Mark and I were doing tappy tappy last Sunday hubud lubud and a few others).
He was trying to pull me into a long drawn out Ikkyo front takedown but the sweat caused too much slippage - not unlike what we see in this judo aikido video but without gi.

It is hard to create kuzushi when the center is guarded like in tappy drills or with this cautious judo man. But traditional ippon dori done with small circle at the shoulder works just fine to accomplish the same Ikkyo take down. But you must change the entry strategy. Same with this judo man in the clip.

You cannot go into a linear or big circle "yin" receiving of an attack if the opponent's center is guarded. But if you apply aiki center touching (like a sonar pinging forward) kuzushi begins at the opponent's far left toe and a small dynamic sphere happens as you bleed the kuzushi forward into the toes of both feet - along what Ledyard calls the "seam" - a simple Ikkyo curve. Crash the line
and make it happen.

Fun stuff with or without a knife.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-09-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:09 PM   #68
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well Chris... Knives are a wholly different paradigm and I know I don't train enough with them since I left the service. Hopefully one of these days we'll hookup and practice together.

William Hazen
I believe You and I have been destined to meet for a few years now. I have always enjoyed your wisdom and approach. I welcome the chance to hook up.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:33 PM   #69
sakumeikan
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello to everyone, even those mad at me. I hope the anger directed at me will recess, seeing the value in my comments to discuss ways to improve Aikido's paradigm. I will take your criticism to heart in improving my communication skills. The quotes at this point are the ones I liked to highlight for myself.

Of those angered by my comments and have expressed them, may I ask some sincere questions to you:

1. teach me to defeat a Judo player using Aikido?
2. can you defeat this Judo player using Aikido?
3. what are three major faults of the Aikido guy that resulted in him never throwing the Judo player, and instead was thrown. why was he successful.

My embarrassment and shame is that I have high expectation of Aikido, knowing full well what Aikido is capable of achieving. I will make it my challenge to place a "yes" to the first two questions. For the third I will train to eliminated those faults in my training.

Thank you everyone for responding. Good training.
Dear Jackie,
Teach you how to beat a judoka?Simple, kick the Judoka in the crown jewels. If you think thays to drastic how about a kick on the kneecap, a nice head butt or better still grab the nearest 2inch by 4 inch piece of wood and crash it over the guys head.Why complicate matters?cheers, Joe,
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:36 PM   #70
sakumeikan
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Funny how a knife attacker would thoroughly change the traditional judo man's style. If he did not compensate, a Silat or eskrima knife cuts him at every entry and cuts him at every attempt at a finishing move. I am not talking about restricted knife Kata. I am talking about the man who knows knives.

Similarly, aiki came from the tactics of samurai who used long (comparatively heavy) blades. The
moves and entries compensate for the presence of these blades in most traditional kata. This has often been a sticking point for me (pun fully intended). My aiki works great with a blade in my
hand. And I am happy to rondori with most any style under these conditions.
I study and practice 6 different arts. Yes, I am a bit of a fanatic. But aiki strategy is not about
besting a different style by becoming the best practitioner of it. Strategy is about looking at their
training practices, picking up on their silent assumptions, and changing the terrain so that the bulk
of what they train in get's shut down from the get go.
The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.

Kali players love the medio and corto range, training tappy tappy drills. If you can crash their line
by touching center and create kuzushi, you can bypass this tactical strength. Then your throw
must be a fight stopper as you continue to cut the falling opponent.
Aiki is a strategy. Atemi (contact or just maneuvering to shut down an angle, zone or intent)
dominates an opponents mistakes and openings.
Judo man? Standing knee breaks and fighting from the flank (Russian 2 on 1 grips) with a knife in one hand thoroughly confuses the traditionalist. Add 3 knives (2 to throw and 1 to go) to crask his carefully planned contact and he'll likely be be thoroughly confused.
Dear Chris,
Loved the end quote about seeing the moon clearer.Cheers, Joe
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:39 PM   #71
Noreaster
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well I hope everyone watched the clip I posted of Tohei. Since he seems to use "belly to belly" stuff. Also it's telling that questions about Aikido's "effectiveness" go back 60 years. LOL I don't think the clip of Aikido vs Judo guy is in anyway representative of Randori... they were just playing, and our Aikido friend in the clip had a nice pony tail but that's about it as far as demonstrating any semblance of technique. He did show Atemi on a couple of occasions but I would not allow a Judoka to grab and hold me and push me into an opening. Instead of entering the Aikidoka is always backing away allowing the Judoka to control his center. In the Tohei clip the moment the grappler makes contact with Tohei he presents an opening and Tohei immediately begins to counter which frustrates the grappler and makes him more aggressive while Tohei just allows him to enter everytime with the same result. any hold the grappler has on Tohei is just used against him. One could suggest that in that sense that is the way Judo is supposed to work too. Nishio Shihan (and I) studied Judo ( He was a 4th Dan me a 2nd Dan) and we're technically able to counter Judo...

It's just a matter of being able to execute and again that's on me.

William Hazen
Spot on!
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:54 PM   #72
phitruong
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
The Judo man trains without blades for the most part and sport Judo is a sucker for the hidden
knife.
.
nah! don't need blades to muck with the judo folks.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:12 PM   #73
phitruong
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nah! don't need blades to muck with the judo folks.
was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....

Last edited by phitruong : 05-09-2012 at 03:14 PM.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:47 PM   #74
Marc Abrams
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
was going to put another line. if i have to resort to blades to handle judo folks, then my aiki sucks big time, which means i have to punish myself by eating a dozen donuts to get rid of my depression which would require extra heavy coffee and medium rare steaks and ....
Red Wine Dammit, Don't forget the Red Wine! Nothing really goes better with medium rare steaks! When you are done with the bottle, simply smash it over the offending person's head.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:57 PM   #75
Aikibu
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Mark and I were doing tappy tappy last Sunday hubud lubud and a few others).
He was trying to pull me into a long drawn out Ikkyo front takedown but the sweat caused too much slippage - not unlike what we see in this judo aikido video but without gi.

It is hard to create kuzushi when the center is guarded like in tappy drills or with this cautious judo man. But traditional ippon dori done with small circle at the shoulder works just fine to accomplish the same Ikkyo take down. But you must change the entry strategy. Same with this judo man in the clip.

You cannot go into a linear or big circle "yin" receiving of an attack if the opponent's center is guarded. But if you apply aiki center touching (like a sonar pinging forward) kuzushi begins at the opponent's far left toe and a small dynamic sphere happens as you bleed the kuzushi forward into the toes of both feet - along what Ledyard calls the "seam" - a simple Ikkyo curve. Crash the line
and make it happen.

Fun stuff with or without a knife.
Agreed... and Mark is good... but I am better. LOL (just ribbing you Mark) Forget Ikkyo and Nikkyo a little Irimi Nage and it's many variations seems to work best for me "belly to belly" Ippon Dori sounds good too. In my experience with drills... most Aikidoka seem to get "lost" by taking their focus off Uke's center and concentrate on the arm. This just tells me they have not made the transition from basic arm grab practice in class to Irimi. When I see someone do this... I just roll with it and crash into their center as a gentle reminder. To a BJJ or Judo Guy it's like handing yourself over on a silver platter. That in my opinion was the Aikido dudes issue on the vid.The Judoka would take his mind by grabbing his arm and then woosh! He was on his back. and you're right when you enter (aka crash the line) thats when the magic may happen though you're fooling yourself if you don't think a Judoka or Grappler does not know how to handle this. So the hard part in Aikido is to make sure they "come to you" by you staying open or as Shoji Nishio puts it Yurusu Aiki aka "Accept The Attack."

Easy to describe but unless you practice "live"... very hard to do. (Just ask my chin or backside. )

William Hazen

PS. It's one reason some folks hate to train with me as their Uke because I was taught that without a sincere effort Nage would never learn anything... Indeed... weak attacks will actually erode a Nage's chances to improve. Thats another thing to take away from Tohei's vid. If you don't learn to "use it"... you will definitely never "have it".... when you "need it".

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-09-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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