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Old 05-08-2012, 08:49 AM   #1
jackie adams
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Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Hello, and greeting Aikido community. A huge apology for this embarrassing topic about the faults of Aikido being made public.

It always been my belief Aikido, unless the person of Aikido is really good at baiting and of high skill, doesn't have a chance against a MMA/BJJ. Aikido is effective and MMA/BJJ is not the best or only measuring tool. Aikido was not developed for competition. The paradigm Aikido has, hasn't adapted to the broader spectrum of martial arts. Aikido is limited to deal with several specific martial arts. It hasn't adapted to deal with the variety of other martial arts.

When you view the youtube video, if you hold your head in shame, your not alone. It should really be a wake up call in many areas. It is a hard dose of reality for some. I harp on the issue of the harder you train the better you are, this proves it. Aikido is an art of kazushi, this is embarrassing.

A must see video of Aikido vs Judo

Major Debatable Points:
1. The Aikido guy was over-weight, out of shape.
2. Lacked the understanding of a fundamental principle in Aikido, kazushi
3. Didn't understand Aikido at all. He had no knowledge of the situation he was in, constantly on the wrong type and side of being on the defense.
4. Fought the other guy's fight and feel in to trap after trap.
5. How can this situation be changed for the better, or improved for the Aikido guy. What should he have done realistically.

Again, I apologize. It is my intention not to degrade Aikido, but take this as an opportunity of education through discussion. Honest self-critic is growth. Thank you and looking forward to the constructive comments. Everyone have a great day.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:59 AM   #2
Richard Stevens
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Your post lacks basic logic. You claim that this video should have Aikidoka hanging their head in shame as if it proves that their art is useless. However, you then go on to state that the Aikidoka in the video lacks fundamental Aikido skills. You are wasting people's time by posting useless garbage like this. Maybe you should spend more time training and less time trolling.

Also, I believe it is "kuzushi" not "kazushi".
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:29 AM   #3
lbb
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello, and greeting Aikido community. A huge apology for this embarrassing topic about the faults of Aikido being made public.
It's ok, Jackie, no need to apologize for what you haven't done, i.e., raised an embarrassing topic. Please don't weep crocodile tears on my account; I don't find imaginary things embarrassing, nor do I consider something to be a "fault" unless it is a real (not imagined) deficiency in contradiction of an actual (not falsely posited) claim.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:40 AM   #4
jackie adams
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Aikido community, let me apologize if my post doesn't come off as sincere. It is. May I make corrections to lessen confusion, Kazushi/Kuzushi = 崩し to break. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/崩し

This is not to criticize Aikido in a negative way. There is lots of criticism already about Aikido and it's failings in a negative way. In the video communicates these criticisms without the negative tone in a visual neutral way. It was too a hard pill from me to shallow when I watch the video. I was embarrassed, and in shame because much of the criticism was revealed in the video. I had to face the facts too, it was a wake up call for me to change my paradigm. I am interested in how to fix the problem the Aikido guy was facing, to improve these situations. I find it difficult to ignore this, it needs to be respectfully discussed.

For one, many of us in Aikido are over-weight, out of shape. Americans are the most over weight people according to many professionals. The excess weigh doesn't work well for these situations, our Founder an his great deshi were not over-weight. It is a valid concern. We see in the video how being over-weight hinders technique and works against you. Aikido isn't Sumo.

It is up to the Aikido community how they want to handle this, if at all. If we don't treat this subject honestly, and see the reality are we going to be better off for it, are we?

Thank you everyone for your time and understanding. Have a great day.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:55 AM   #5
chillzATL
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Where's the embarrassing part? I guess the title of the video is accurate, but what I see is an aikido guy seeing if he can do anything against a judo guy. You see several times that he has ideas of things he could do, using atemi/etc, but in the context of what they're doing (friendly training/testing) he's obviously not going to do that. Props to him for playing like this.

If you think it's all about kuzushi, what is the aikido guy missing to allow him to get kuzushi on someone clearly intent on downing him? 1000 more reps of ikkyo? 5000 shihonage's? more "hard training"?
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:04 AM   #6
jackie adams
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Hello everyone.

Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.

Please enjoy your day and best of training everyone.

Last edited by jackie adams : 05-08-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:08 AM   #7
John Connolly
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

There are many reasons to criticize Aikido, but why is this video a talking point? is it that the Aikido guy got taken to the ground over and over? What are their comparative skill levels/years in training? This is clearly an experimental session and not true sparring anyway. Bad video example.

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Old 05-08-2012, 10:11 AM   #8
chillzATL
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

obvious troll is obvious...
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:30 AM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Why should I be ashamed because a couple of guys are making a video? WTF does it have to do with me, my training, or a supposed "aikido community"?

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:30 AM   #10
gregstec
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

I agree with John here, that video is nothing more than two guys playing around - I did not see anything against anything for comparison, nor is it a high level representation of either art.

I really don't see your point - maybe Jason is on the right track there.

Greg
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:33 AM   #11
gregstec
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Why should I be ashamed because a couple of guys are making a video? WTF does it have to do with me, my training, or a supposed "aikido community"?
WTF ??? - I guess you can take the girl out Brooklyn but not take the Brooklyn out of the girl

Last edited by gregstec : 05-08-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:49 AM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch!

BJJ/MMA taught me alot as an Aikidoka. It taught me that I really did not understand alot of things about fighting and the application of fighting and martial methodologies. So far that most valuable lesson in life...THANK you BJJ/MMA.

Now, on that note, I STILL do and practice aikido. and there is a reason for that. Given correct training and the correct perspective and understanding of why we should and do train in aikido. it is a very good methodology for training.

The problem lies in the fact that many in our practice of AIkido do not understand these things and go out and write checks they cannot cash. It really is as simple as that and their failings do not prove or disprove the practice of Aikido..for the right reasons.

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Old 05-08-2012, 10:52 AM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello everyone.

Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.

Please enjoy your day and best of training everyone.
This wasn't a problem for me. I got my ass handed to me by a BJJer so I started studying BJJ. So now I can competently handle the criticism. Problem is...too many people want to make excuses and find out ways to avoid going outside of their comfort zones.

Not saying everyone should go out and study BJJ, but if you want to gripe about it and it is an issue for you...then maybe some time with a guy that is good with takedowns and figuring out how to answer the problem set is time well spent. Just saying.

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Old 05-08-2012, 11:31 AM   #14
lbb
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Before I leave this up to the Aikido community to discuss as they please. One last comment. Aikido is the most sensitive to criticism of most of the other martial arts. The other arts welcome criticism they take the negative and turn it into a positive that improves those who practice the art. Criticism can be painful, but it isn't always bad, it is the lack of criticism that is the most damaging. My biggest criticism of Aikido is how we as a community handle criticism. We don't take the negative and work it into a positive that works for us. We make it personal and hold it against the critic. We kill the messenger.
Another invalid generalization. "Arts" don't do anything, for heaven's sake; why anthopomorphize a loose amalgamation of people who are doing more or less the same thing, as if it were a single entity with a coherent collective intent?

Sorry, Jackie, it sounds to me more like you wanted to grind an axe and so you manufactured a burning issue that needs to be discussed, and nobody's biting on the hook in exactly the way you want. I think we've seen enough one-true-wayers here that we can spot 'em a mile away by now.
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:31 AM   #15
philipsmith
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Hmmm................

Maybe it's embarassing for some but not for others.

Had my ass handed to me lots of times by Aikidoka and other martial artists - also done the vice versa thing (i.e. handed people their ass). All situations differ and there is always somebody tougher faster and stronger than you
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:22 PM   #16
Cliff Judge
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

This video? This is a judo shiai. Why would anyone expect an Aikidoka to do better than a ranked Judoka in a Judo shiai?
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:24 PM   #17
dps
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

. I am an Aikido hobbyist according to the elite Aikido professionals, and not a member of the Aikido community. Therefore I am not embarrassed at all.

However I think the Aikido guy does have a cool pony tail.

dps
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:59 PM   #18
ryback
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Tho only embarrassing thing that I see here is that anyone would make such claims about aikido,let alone judging from a video such as this.Each aikidoka has his own level of ability,training and choices to be judged by but they don't reflect on aikido as an martial art or it's effectiveness.By the way,every aikidoka who respects himself has a cool ponytail.Hahaha!
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:00 PM   #19
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

I'm not really sure why I need to be embarrassed or ashamed of being an aikidoka based on that or any video. Seeing as how I did not get into aikido in order to become the baddest ass in town nor do I feel a special need to be able to beat another martial artist of any kind in a silly contest to see who is a better fighter. To me all of the posturing and the whose MA is best arguing is ridiculous and a waste of good training time. If someone is looking for a MA because they want to go get in fights then they should probably pick something else.

If people want to criticize aikido then let them. That is their problem. Personally I am proud to be an aikidoka and proud to be a student of my teachers.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:38 PM   #20
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello, and greeting

A must see video of Aikido vs Judo

Major Debatable Points:
1. The Aikido guy was over-weight, out of shape.
2. Lacked the understanding of a fundamental principle in Aikido, kazushi
3. Didn't understand Aikido at all. He had no knowledge of the situation he was in, constantly on the wrong type and side of being on the defense.
4. Fought the other guy's fight and feel in to trap after trap.
5. How can this situation be changed for the better, or improved for the Aikido guy. What should he have done realistically.

Again, I apologize. It is my intention not to degrade Aikido, but take this as an opportunity of education through discussion. Honest self-critic is growth. Thank you and looking forward to the constructive comments. Everyone have a great day.
I agree with the idea that this wasn't a serious attempt at sparring. Rather than feel ashamed at his performance, I like that he was trying some things out and working on his "game." Unless there is more information about the guys involved it's hard to pass judgement on his training...and the judo guy was pretty good sized and in good shape, which accounts for quite a bit. The Aikidoist never seemed to really try and seize control like the Judo guy did. So the questions I have are related to the idea that I didn't see any major attempts by the Aikido guy. Perhaps he was trying something very specific that was hard to see. I kept wishing there was no music so I could hear what they were saying.
Failure is a chance to work toward success. It looked very one-sided, but let's suppose this is a video of a shodan Aikidoka training with a sandan (for the sake of argument; not that rank is a valid marker for success, particularly in interdisciplinary randori). Even if he's a very highly ranked Aikidoka with a first year Judoka, as it was pointed out, this doesn't reflect on me or anyone else. I have a similar response when people talk about the decline of Aikido: "Is your training declining?"
There will always be people like me who make their chosen practices look bad in some way; de facto lessening the overall quality to some degree. What matters is how each of us engages our own training; not how others engage theirs. I have no problem with people thinking Aikido is a weak art full of [insert derogatory remarks here]. I'm confident there are folks who are dedicated to doing very serious work and creating very serious quality. Let's look to those examples when we try to define Aikido in the context of other arts.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:57 PM   #21
Tengu859
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Jack,

Seems to me you may need to look deep inside of yourself. All the best.

ChrisW
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #22
Rob Watson
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

The aikidoka that see no value in having a midlevel judoka (or fill in your fave/feared MA/venue) dump them are the ones you have to worry about.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:01 PM   #23
Aikibu
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Just because this dudes Aikido sucks does not mean Aikido does. Troll.

Why do I think the guy's a Troll? Because there is enough good Aikido on the Web to objectify his "example" for discussion...Instead we get another old, tired, and juvenile meme with one video as "proof"

I have a few vids on tape of my days as a beginner and yup... at one time in my life My Aikido mostly sucked too...and depending on the skill level of my attacker that my still be the case LOL Though it is much rarer these days.

Like any Martial Art your practice is as "effective" as you want it to be. The choice is yours.

Practicing Hard with a full commitment to being the best you can be has always been the solution for any Martial Art you chose to learn.

William Hazen
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:12 PM   #24
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Jackie Adams,
While your post has a general merit about it- question your system and find what is lacking. Overall it shows a lack of understanding about context. In this video they are basically "doing Judo". When doing Judo who do you think will be better at it, a guy who does Judo all the time or a guy who doesn't do Judo? If you have a boxing match, and pit a boxer against a Judoka, who do you think will win the boxing match?

Aikido isn't Judo, it isn't boxing it isn't anything other than Aikido. This context is not Aikido's context, so why would you expect Aikido to work in it? I had this problem for years, and it took lot's of work for me to find the way out of the box.

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Old 05-08-2012, 03:19 PM   #25
Janet Rosen
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Re: Reality? Embarrassment for Aikido

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
WTF ??? - I guess you can take the girl out Brooklyn but not take the Brooklyn out of the girl
you talking to ME?

Janet Rosen
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