Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > External Aikido Blog Posts

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-05-2012, 08:00 AM   #1
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 679
United_States
Offline
Two Hundred and Fourteen

Uke can only be either in motion or stationary. If uke is in motion there's no need for me to move him. If uke is stationary, again, there's no need for me to move him.

Uke can only attack while he's moving. Since he's moving there's no need for me to move him.

Uke attacks and stops, remaining motionless. Since he's not moving he's not attacking and there's no need for me to move him.




(Original blog post may be found here.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 08:57 AM   #2
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Ron
I think this posting on movement points to the central difference between how you approach Aikido and that of others (me included). There are some who can move on you and you will not be able to affect that movement, stop or handle their attack other than be at the effect of it. They are so stable in their movement, within themselves, that you can't sense the intent of their movement before it is visible as movement or deal with it.

Just go straight

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 09:15 AM   #3
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

I like this Ron. Very simple yet powerful in it's expression.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 11:16 AM   #4
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Uke can only be either in motion or stationary. If uke is in motion there's no need for me to move him. If uke is stationary, again, there's no need for me to move him.

Uke can only attack while he's moving. Since he's moving there's no need for me to move him.

Uke attacks and stops, remaining motionless. Since he's not moving he's not attacking and there's no need for me to move him.

(Original blog post may be found here.)
Invalidated very simply - attacker is standing motionless, but his position is preventing me from reaching a desired goal. For example, assisting a friend who is being assaulted by the attacker's compatriot.

Also it assumes that anything moving is, but it's very nature, unstable. That is not, as Gary pointed out, always the case.

This is the kind of thing that I heard a lot of when I first started Aikido - seems to make sense, but upon examination you find that there are just too many situations where it just doesn't hold up.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2012, 09:07 PM   #5
OwlMatt
 
OwlMatt's Avatar
Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

I like this post a lot. It's a good reminder for ukes who plant themselves like statues. If you're not moving, you're not attacking.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #6
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

I think you will find Ron makes no mention of you as nage standing still or planting yourself or anything like it.

No mention of blocking or being a barrier in any shape or form.

It's actually in my estimation a good description of both ma ai and de ai and taken forewrd would be blending and Aikido.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 07:45 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think you will find Ron makes no mention of you as nage standing still or planting yourself or anything like it.
Neither did I - try re-reading it.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 12:02 AM   #8
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 155
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Neither did I - try re-reading it.

Best,

Chris
Mere factual details...
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 05:32 AM   #9
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Neither did I - try re-reading it.

Best,

Chris
Chris, I wrote more than one sentence. If I was to direct a communication to you on how you read what he put then it would be more as follows:

1) I don't think he implies that the attacker in motion is unstable.

2) I don't think he implies uke being motionless in front of you is a barrier or is preventing you from doing anything. No different to a lamp post really.

3) He implies what I said in the last sentence, ma ai and de ai. He implies in my estimation Aikido blending motion.

Only he knows. I may be completely wrong.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 05:59 AM   #10
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Uke can only be either in motion or stationary. If uke is in motion there's no need for me to move him. If uke is stationary, again, there's no need for me to move him.

Uke can only attack while he's moving. Since he's moving there's no need for me to move him.

Uke attacks and stops, remaining motionless. Since he's not moving he's not attacking and there's no need for me to move him.
The following makes as much sense:
  • An enemy soldier can be either firing or reloading. If he is firing there is no need for me to fire. If he is reloading, again, there's no need for me to fire
  • An enemy soldier can only fire at me if he is firing. Since he's firing there's no need for me to fire.
  • An enemy soldier fires at me and then stops to reload, since he is not firing at me there is no need for me to fire.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 07:48 AM   #11
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,811
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
There are some who can move on you and you will not be able to affect that movement, stop or handle their attack other than be at the effect of it. They are so stable in their movement, within themselves, that you can't sense the intent of their movement before it is visible as movement or deal with it.
Gary
yup. that old phrase "motion in stillness and stillness in motion" has a whole new meaning with those folks.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 10:31 AM   #12
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) I don't think he implies that the attacker in motion is unstable.
I did - in that he implies that the attacker being in motion is a requirement for doing something.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
2) I don't think he implies uke being motionless in front of you is a barrier or is preventing you from doing anything. No different to a lamp post really.
A lamp post can block you from going somewhere if it's in the right position. That was my point - this theory is invalidated that by the fact that there are many times when you will have to deal with someone who is not moving.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 11:01 AM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Invalidated very simply - attacker is standing motionless, but his position is preventing me from reaching a desired goal. For example, assisting a friend who is being assaulted by the attacker's compatriot.

Also it assumes that anything moving is, but it's very nature, unstable. That is not, as Gary pointed out, always the case.

This is the kind of thing that I heard a lot of when I first started Aikido - seems to make sense, but upon examination you find that there are just too many situations where it just doesn't hold up.

Best,

Chris
Good points. It is why I prefer OODA as a model for a dealing with a threat as it does not necessarily require physical movement or contact. To be successful in winning under the theory of OODA you simple need to take whatever action is necessary to disrupt the decision cycle of your opponent. Thinking in terms of Musahsi it can be as simple as meeting your opponent on the beach with the sun behind your back.

If we deal with things purely in terms of the immediate and physical, we lose sight of a great deal of what is really important which is the strategic. IMO, this is what we are striving to reach in our studies, an keen understanding of cause and effect and being able to affect things long before the physical.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 12:03 PM   #14
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I did - in that he implies that the attacker being in motion is a requirement for doing something.

A lamp post can block you from going somewhere if it's in the right position. That was my point - this theory is invalidated that by the fact that there are many times when you will have to deal with someone who is not moving.

Best,

Chris
O.K. Chris so we disagree on the first point as to what he implied.

On the second I think I know where he is coming from so I don't think your point invalidates it at all. More that you misunderstand it.

There are not many times when you have to deal with someone who is not moving, especially in Aikido and especially when the scenario is not one of already being held.

A lamp post does not have to be moved even if it's threatening to fall on you.

In blending style Aikido there is no doing to, it's not necessary. That's where I believe he is coming from. We shall see.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 12:43 PM   #15
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 894
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Uke can only be either in motion or stationary. If uke is in motion there's no need for me to move him. If uke is stationary, again, there's no need for me to move him.

Uke can only attack while he's moving. Since he's moving there's no need for me to move him.

Uke attacks and stops, remaining motionless. Since he's not moving he's not attacking and there's no need for me to move him.

(Original blog post may be found here.)
First, if someone chooses to use their attack to remain motionless, that is a poor attack, but they wish to affect me. Likewise, our modern ukewaza, which centers around the free-giving of her balance, is an attack; a poor one, but an attack. In any other martial art if uke were to attack as we do, you would practically hear nage squeal with joy. Second, theoretically we are practicing aikido as either uke or nage, Aikido happens on both sides, so we necessarily need to align our principles as they may be applied as both uke and nage.

For me, theses two points create some issues with Ron's statements. Not that his statements are wrong, but that they assume 1. uke is either in motion or not. 2. Nage is doing something different than uke. 3. nage can do something to uke.

The whole concept of hanmi is to present a stable structure that offers no suki. There are plenty of people with whom I train who may stand in hanmi and simply dominate the space between us. While not attacking, they offer no suki and present a real threat of retaliation if I invade the space they dominate. Sundadomari sensei is one of the best aikido people who simply own the space around them. If you have not seen Kenji Ushiro sensei back someone off a mat, he also owns his space.

Now that I am looking for it, I see a lot of parity in the relationship between uke and nage, often even their stances and body movements are in parallel, excepting the grafting of uke's center onto nage's. Ron's rhetoric is more dependent on "doing" something to uke and uke acting in a fashion to allow nage to "do" something to her. I try to look for answers that involve uke and nage both practicing aikido, not uke being the "bad guy" and nage being the "aikido guy".

For me, I think rather than saying, "If uke is in motion there's no need for me to move him. If uke is stationary, again, there's no need for me to move him." I would say, "My movement is my own and not subject to affect by another."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 12:59 PM   #16
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

In blending style Aikido there is no doing to, it's not necessary. That's where I believe he is coming from. We shall see.

Peace.G.
For all else that has been said....my initial response was to the idea that a blending style of Aikido handles all..... I know people who you can not feel move, you can not feel their intention to move...you can not sense it and once moving you can not blend with it.....you are just at the effect of it.

That is not to say you can not reach a level where you are the one that moves without others awareness.....maybe with the ability to "blend" early enough so the attack doesn't happen... just hard to reach at half that level....and there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing even that .....so.....

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 01:37 PM   #17
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,811
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

you know that there are uke who can attack without moving, at all; yet can force you to move at high speed. these ukes employed ancient secret and deadly ki techniques which involved kimchee, eggs, re-fried bean, cheese, onion and sour cream. now if such uke employs such technique in enclosed space, say an elevator, there can no defense.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #18
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
There are not many times when you have to deal with someone who is not moving, especially in Aikido and especially when the scenario is not one of already being held.
In a normal urban scenario? I think it happens all the time.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 04:02 PM   #19
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,209
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
The following makes as much sense:
  • An enemy soldier can be either firing or reloading. If he is firing there is no need for me to fire. If he is reloading, again, there's no need for me to fire
  • An enemy soldier can only fire at me if he is firing. Since he's firing there's no need for me to fire.
  • An enemy soldier fires at me and then stops to reload, since he is not firing at me there is no need for me to fire.
Not applicable to our dojo as we request that everyone check their guns at the door.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 04:11 PM   #20
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Not applicable to our dojo as we request that everyone check their guns at the door.
Even this guy?



Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 05:06 PM   #21
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,209
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen


Last edited by Mary Eastland : 05-08-2012 at 05:06 PM. Reason: wrong smiley

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #22
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,811
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Even this guy?



Best,

Chris
definitely that guy! can't have some nut job with bayonet and talked to kami doing aikido, what would people think of us!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 11:01 PM   #23
OwlMatt
 
OwlMatt's Avatar
Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
United_States
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think you will find Ron makes no mention of you as nage standing still or planting yourself or anything like it.
I think you will find that I make no mention of it, either. My post was talking about uke, not nage.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 05:08 AM   #24
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Not applicable to our dojo as we request that everyone check their guns at the door.
Pardon my misunderstanding, I thought that those statements were meant to be applicable beyond a room in Great Barrington, MA, in a context of a general confrontational situation.
The OP plays on the vague meaning/implications of the verb "motion" and the way it relates to "attack". I used different verbs with same syntactic structure to explore the meaning.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:35 AM   #25
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,209
Offline
Re: Two Hundred and Fourteen

It wasn't vague at all. I took literally. Last night when I illustrated it in class I saw just how profound it was.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:58 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate