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Old 10-09-2000, 03:43 AM   #51
zen711
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My Aikido

Hi all,

I was quite fortunate to start my training with a great sensei who was a Karate instructor before he taught aikido, but more importantly was a parole officer. The man was like a father to me and several long talks were had about aikido/the world/survival/other arts..you name it. The conclusion, after endless nights of talks with me and countless other artists from other arts on the applicability of all techniques and training methods was this, and I believe it is most important to Aikidoists, who may find themselves constantly questioning if even after years, their aikido would help them defend him or her self. The conclusion is that all you need to become the single most dangerous fighter you can be is to keep an open mind and have someone knowledgable enough sit you down and explain what you are for a good ten minutes or so. By that I mean that really, people are nothing but animals. When we are threatened we usually forget about our animal survival instincts and give in to how society has made us think of things like guys becoming all macho and thinking they can turn into Bruce Lee and down the enemies in 3 seconds or that they have to be all brave and fight a certain way. But, as it was impounded in my mind, "that is the very thing that will have you training for a thousand years and then end up getting you killed." Sit a person down..have them look at their life and all they have to live for and see all that is important to them. Try to have them open their mind and see if they would really be willing to give that up just because they couldnt do something like fight "dirty" as they would probably see it. Once this is realized, you will have the most dangerous fighter of all, and they can go on and practice the arts for their true purpose, to better their lives as a whole. But should they be attacked, not some ridiculous quarrel with a drunk friend or something that can most likely be avoided, but the real fight, meaning the one for survival. They must learn to throw out norms and do what they need to survive..animal instinct. May sound a bit freaky but remember, my sensei and most people at the dojo were police officers, so damn did i hear some stories. So...one of the worst scenarios survivalwise...man or woman..you're being attacked, there are multiple people there...say you're spouse is there also being attacked by these people. Are you going to try and pull off technique, are you going to push your instinct to survive even farther away or r u going to do what should be natural to you. May sound sick but ya know what, my life threatened, anything, any body part of theirs that I can get a hold of is going to meet my mouth and Im gonna take as big a chunk out as possible. And should I have the chance they are going to loose both eyes or have everything I have going for their throat or groin no matter what. Are you laughing or grossed out yet? I was at first too. Then he hit me with "Ok, tell you what, you stay on the ground getting hit while you look over and your wife is being raped. So, then later on should you live, at the hospital you can say, Oh hey honey, I know that was horrible and Im really sorry but c'mon, biting someones finger clean off or putting my fingers to his eyes, thats just disgusting. Think you'll have the guts to say that or think you can stand that feeling. I realize i may be talking about the most extreme cases but I think that is what should be most important to people, not wondering if theyll be able to take their drunk friend and throw him across the room Above the Law style. yeah, that may be what they are hoping to do, which is why we must help and educate them and see that there is so much more to belearned from the art..from all arts for that matter. I believe with a true aikido mindste, most other things can be avoided or gotten around, with much of that skill involving ideas I've heard by teachers like Terry Dobson on how to handle situations and really join the mind of the "enemy". But unfortunately, the worst cases, the ones where there is no reasoning, no logic to it at all where they may be no hope of finding a way out is the one unavidable one where you fight for your life. I'd have no problem knowing a friend was about to be killed and he threw out all his years of aikido practice and all he ever said about being peaceful and healing or protecting the world and just kicked and punched the hell out of the attacker or even blinded him if need be. I rather go to the dojo and see my friend walk in rather than having sensei come over crying with some "bad news". Just thought I'd share the thoughts. Happy training all.
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Old 10-09-2000, 04:22 AM   #52
ian
 
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quandry

The problem with real situations is that you never really know how you will react, and that is why many of us do martial arts; to produce a useful instinctive behaviour.

I asked Yamada sensei whether he had ever used Aikido in a real situation(several years ago, so he may have changed his ethos on this!) His reply was that in a real situation you have to be more serious - which I took to mean that the least you do is make sure they cannot attack you again (for the time being).

A police friend of mine did shiho-nage on someone who was attacking him on the street and the person just got straight back up and punched him again.

I think the ideal of Aikido is not to hurt someone but I do not feel confident enough in my own ability to be able to fend of unlimited attacks. I do not believe that if you defend yourself without causing injury that the attacker will calm down. If anything he will become angrier because he looks a fool. Most young men fight to look tough and to look higher up in the pecking order. My policy is of equal power - I would like to use enough damage/aggression that he is put off attacking yet his spirit is not broken into a demeaning pulp where they could not forgive me (which would probably be the case if you permanently disabled someone) - people should be able to live to regret their actions, but at the same token the attacker should have learnt a 'lesson' and not be prepared to bully everyone he comes across - you don't just have a responsibility to the person you are fighting, you have a resonsibility to the next victim.

However, martial arts are instinctive so I always train to 'put someone out of the action' usually through a pin or more usefully through a dummy strike (cut if using a weapon) to an atemi point. (I'm probably not strong enough to kill someone with a single strike but I could kill someone with a strange hold; but these are far more controllable).

Conclusion: train to put them out of the action quickly, but not to kill or permanently disable.

PS. there is a difference between an attack and someone just trying to push you around, which can often be dealt with in a much milder manner, and which Aikido is also well suited (isn't nikkyo cool!)
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Old 10-09-2000, 04:25 AM   #53
ian
 
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Talking

PPS.
I have let someone hit me because I felt guilty for upsetting him. Luckily he was a boxer and the two punches were fast yet painless.
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Old 10-09-2000, 05:21 PM   #54
Mike Collins
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Thanks Zen711

That was the absolutely best, most realistic post I have ever seen re: the effectiveness of Aikido.

I couldn't possibly agree any more. I would prefer that I was never forced to kill, but should it ever be a choice between me meeting my karma and allowing someone else to hurt or kill others, or taking a life, well as the punchline goes "He says you gonna die!"

I'd never considered the earlier posts thoughts about what happens by allowing a bad person to live, and I agree with that one too. We are all responsible for each other, good and bad. Not to take action can be the same as taking bad action.

Thanks
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Old 03-18-2001, 03:22 PM   #55
Anubis Gohan
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Yes i would

I would kill an attacker not if it came down to it say if he wastwo attack me with a knife i would break his arm if it was a gun i would break bolth his legs club or bat bolth his arms sward (it haas a more honrable meaning than a knife)we would dule
-Brad

"Do Not despise the snake for it has no horns for one day it may become a dragon"
-Some Book I Found In The Libary
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Old 03-18-2001, 04:08 PM   #56
PeterR
 
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I read the question in two possible ways.

Would I use techniques that could possible lead to an attacker's death?

Well a good number of the techniques we practice on a regular basis have that potential especially against a resisting nasty type person. Our level of response is broad but are there situations where I would use the full spectrum of techniques. Hopefully I would recognize when and where and hopefully my level of control is such that the ultimate ending is not the ultimate ending.

Would I purposefully execute a bad guy?

This is how I read several of the responses. You break into my house I have the right to kill you or (I am not sure if the last post was for or against) if you come at me with a knife I will break one arm, etc. If you have neutrallized an attack and then go on to inflict damage as punishment you are no better than the criminal.

I suggest that before the question is answered you ask yourself just which of the above versions you are responding to.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-18-2001, 05:06 PM   #57
guest1234
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To kill or not to kill an opponent i think has been debated more than once here, and probably in many post dojo bar visits. With over twenty years in the military, this reminds me of an often quoted analogy between killing and sex: 'the people who really do it just don't talk about it'
I would recommend reading "On Killing" a book by Lt Col Dave Grossman. There are some suprising statistics in it. Firing rates among infantry on the front line in WWII was 15%; similar rates were found in retrospective studies of the American Civil War. Men drilled for months to react with firing a weapon when fired upon, and yet many died rather than fire at the enemy. Based on these numbers, the US Army used sophisticated psychological techniques and improved the firing rate to nearly 90%; and yet, more than fifty thousand bullets were fired for every enemy soldier killed.
The most ease in firing occured the further away from the enemy: long range missle or bombing easier than rifle, which is easier than knife, which is easier than hand to hand--Gene Hackman's movie 'BAT 21' shows a classic example of this. The psychological toll on most who did have to face killing another human was devastating. And for those who say we are basically animals, even very deadly species, while able to kill non-species memebers, resist killing each other. When pirana fight they do not use their teeth. Rattlesnakes do not bite each other.
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Old 03-18-2001, 05:17 PM   #58
DiNalt
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If you don't have a "program" of confrontation constantly running in your head, there will not be any confrontations.

I tested this involuntarily as I was walking through a "bad" neighborhood late at night.

A several local "toughs" passed by me as I walked, but I managed to get into the mode where I felt synchronized with them, thinking of them as human beings with their own issues and feelings... not as "bad guys".

I felt "clear" with them.

And I felt it reflect in them and come back to me.
I knew they wouldn't attack me.

Another thing was, when I was even younger and dumber, many years ago, I got into a stupid ego-based fight against 2 guys...

It ended up with both of them sitting on me, and one of them started to pound on my face - and at that moment I didn't have a clue about one-point, joining, or anything, but I switched into a no-hatred mode, I felt a part of something bigger than all of us... an "expansion" so to speak...
I saw that the guy above me was confused because he suddenly lost the desire to hit me.
And then they got up and walked away.

Yes they were still taunting me, etc, but they walked away.
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Old 03-18-2001, 07:30 PM   #59
Travis Baker
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Not very many situations would ever require you to make this decision. The easiest way to think of a situation that would force you to choose between life and death is two add a few guns. If someone breaks into your home... you have a gun and he has a gun... you know he very well is going to kill you... could you pull the trigger? I really hate to bring the issue of guns into this forum... and really it's just to give a more valid life and death situation.

Someone was pretty irate about this thread at the beginning... mentioning how Aikido is not meant to kill... and how it disgraces the art to put it to that use. The problem I see with this is that, if you are absolutely unwilling to kill someone... no matter what the circumstances... that is a horrible weakness. If someone wanted to kill you... or someone else... they could try as often as they like... they know they aren't going to die. Seems like a very unpractical way of thinking. I will be the first one to tell you that I know very little about Aikido. The reason I am drawn to it is because of the great respect for life it demands. If everyone in the world followed those ideals, then it wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is though... many people could give a rat's ass about your mercy... and if it comes down to pull the trigger or die... I am going to pull the trigger. It may stick with me for the rest of my life... but at least I have that life to live.

I can see how this would be different for some people. One reason is... I am very unreligious... and as of right now... I don't think there is anything like heaven after this life. I could be wrong on that one... and I truly respect those who have the faith to believe in that sort of thing. To my way of thinking... this life is all I have, so I want to make the most of it, also my life is my most precious possesion... anyone trying to take that away from me is trying to rob me of every single joy that life encompasses... and when you think about it like that... the decision doesn't seem that hard.

Please excuse if I restated things that have been said way too many times before. I also am not the best at expressing my opinion in writing... so I apoligize if it is a little hard to follow.

-Travis Baker
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Old 03-18-2001, 08:05 PM   #60
Prestige X
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It depends on the specific situation , i mean I'd say that personnaly i'd only kill someone if it was premeditated. I mean like if some dude raped my sister, or something completly horrible, then i'd kill the bastard. But if you just get into a scrap on the street then , no i dont' think i could kill someone for something of no importance.
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Old 03-19-2001, 08:05 AM   #61
ronin_10562
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I was taught to defend myself as well as I can. The goal is not to cause the attacker injury, but to prevent injury from occuring to me or my loved ones. If in the course of defending myself the attacker dies the responsibilty rests with the attacker. I have done all I can do avoid the situation. Now I will do all I can to make sure I don't get injured.

Sometimes it is suprisingly easy how people die. When I was younger I had witnessed a fight outside of a bar, the bartender tried to stop it but he was pushed aside and lost his balance hit his head on a curb and died. So every Aikido throw has the potential of killing the attacker. That is what makes Aiki Arts so dangerous.

Walter Kopitov
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Old 03-19-2001, 09:29 AM   #62
Mark Cochran
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I feel it does depend on the cercumstances. Perhaps the greatest question is that of premedation. What is worse killing somebody in purly instinctual act of self defense or sitting down and planning it out. Some would state that the bible allows for murder in self defense whill others aurgue that murder is murder and there is no excuse. Frankly I would take every steep nescesary to prevent my taker from hurting me without crossing over that line. One of the greatest benifits of traning in the martial arts is the ablity not to kill and yet still be able to safely defend yourself. Many may question that in the face of people who have been convinced that traditional martial arts are useless in real street surcumstances. The trick to that is simple don't specialize. Train in multiple disaplines. Aikido is my core art but I am also learning a form of Karate and I'll probably continue to absorb new style all my life. I do all this so that when the time come to deliver or die I'll deliver and leave my attacker with a soar arm, a wounded ego, and nothing else.
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Old 03-19-2001, 11:11 AM   #63
Matt Banks
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A sensei once told me,

''its better to be tryed by 12 then be carried away by six (dead)''




Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-19-2001, 11:23 AM   #64
DiNalt
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Let's face it, we're a bunch of paranoid freaks.

I wish I knew the line between awareness and paranoia but so far I don't see any

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Old 03-19-2001, 02:40 PM   #65
Matt Banks
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Taking a life?

I think with the regular training aikidoka do, they lose sight of how dangerous the tecniques they learn to use each day are. There is a lot in magazines how certain MA tecniques wouldnt work etc, but there is often little talk about how much they COULD work. I know an Aikidoka who accidently blinded an attacker on a night out. After the situation he quite. He was never trained to be an aggresive thug in training, it just happened. I think the idea of killing someone, is something every serious aikido has to contemplate (and fear) when they have a quiet moment alone. I feel a death would be the ultimate failure. But there may be a terrifying moment in my life where, I had to kill someone to stop them killing/raping a family member or friend. I just want to say, this Aikido we learn can be a very dangerous thing, if things go wrong.


Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-19-2001, 03:05 PM   #66
guest1234
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I am reminded of a joke that goes: what do you do if attacked by several Aikidoka in a dark alley? Answer: clap twice and they will let go of you. i think a great example of that was an earlier post where someone used shihonage, then let the attacker up, who reattacked. Martial arts training does not necessarily train you to kill. it may teach you potentially deadly techniques, but not necessarily give you (thank God?) the ability to use them in killing. especially with your bare hands; another person posted he'd use a gun...for many even that is difficult. The book i mentioned earlier, "on Killing" talks about a well known (well, not to me, but i don't really know much) self-defense instructor who put oranges over the eyes of students so others could practice gouging out an eye (also mentioned as one technique above, i think), and how difficult it was to get students to actually go through with the gouging. I am envisioning the expressions on the faces of the senior students at my first--very spotless--dojo at even the thought of the mess.
it is interesting that one of the things that is allowing more soldiers, and perhaps the youth of today, to kill more readily than before is an acceptance of killing. The more the group dynamic talked up how it was OK to kill, the easier it became, especially for the small percentage of individuals who were predisposed (sociopathic tendencies). that kind of group talk and acceptance overcame a very real and deep seated reluctance to take a human life.
for many of those who did the talking, it may have just been posturing, which the author relates to a fierce show in the animal world designed to head off any real need to kill an opponent, by driving him into flight. But the posturing allowed certain individuals to cross over the line and kill.
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Old 03-25-2001, 09:06 AM   #67
Jim ashby
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Could I kill an attacker? Yes. Would I kill an attacker? Depends on the circunstances. I was once told "the quality of true mercy is not killing someone because you can".
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:39 AM   #68
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

I asked my teacher a simular question once, he also happened to be ex S.B.S (special boat squardon), the navy`s equivalent to the S.A.S. He said to me, avoid the situation first!, if a fight cannot be avoided only injure when neccessary, If they wont stay down then disable them, if you must kill because there is a real danger to your life or to other`s, then kill quickly and cleanly because life cannot be waisted even in death. (I still don`t know what this last piece means).

My teacher has told me since, that he had to kill to save not only his life but the life of his friends and comerades. This I believe has haunted him for the rest of his life and he does not talk about this lightly. In fact it took a very long time for me to know him before he even told me he was a soldier, at least ten years of teacher student relationship.
Up until that point I always assumed he had always been a dental technitian as a trade, how little we really know people!

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:54 AM   #69
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

If he/she had every intention of killing me......... yes....
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:03 AM   #70
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Would you kill an attacker?

I believe deeply in the philosophy of Aikido and it is what I strive for in my training. However, no matter how skilled one becomes there always are the X factor/factors that will come crashing in on the street. At the end of the day, I am going home to my family, so while my "intention" would not to be to kill, the interaction could unfold that way and in my eyes I would still be doing Aikido.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:04 AM   #71
phitruong
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

from the movie "Hitman"

"how does a good man decide when to kill?"

"If I think that a man means
to do me or my family harm...
then I will do whatever I can to stop him...
but beyond that...it's a crapshoot."
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:36 AM   #72
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

Quote:
Travis Baker wrote: View Post
Not very many situations would ever require you to make this decision. The easiest way to think of a situation that would force you to choose between life and death is two add a few guns. If someone breaks into your home... you have a gun and he has a gun... you know he very well is going to kill you... could you pull the trigger? I really hate to bring the issue of guns into this forum... and really it's just to give a more valid life and death situation.

Someone was pretty irate about this thread at the beginning... mentioning how Aikido is not meant to kill... and how it disgraces the art to put it to that use. The problem I see with this is that, if you are absolutely unwilling to kill someone... no matter what the circumstances... that is a horrible weakness. If someone wanted to kill you... or someone else... they could try as often as they like... they know they aren't going to die. Seems like a very unpractical way of thinking. I will be the first one to tell you that I know very little about Aikido. The reason I am drawn to it is because of the great respect for life it demands. If everyone in the world followed those ideals, then it wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is though... many people could give a rat's ass about your mercy... and if it comes down to pull the trigger or die... I am going to pull the trigger. It may stick with me for the rest of my life... but at least I have that life to live.

I can see how this would be different for some people. One reason is... I am very unreligious... and as of right now... I don't think there is anything like heaven after this life. I could be wrong on that one... and I truly respect those who have the faith to believe in that sort of thing. To my way of thinking... this life is all I have, so I want to make the most of it, also my life is my most precious possesion... anyone trying to take that away from me is trying to rob me of every single joy that life encompasses... and when you think about it like that... the decision doesn't seem that hard.

Please excuse if I restated things that have been said way too many times before. I also am not the best at expressing my opinion in writing... so I apoligize if it is a little hard to follow.

-Travis Baker
I think that is a very natural reaction..... and I would take the same
reaction. For one thing, I'm scared of dying and I know my family would suffer if I was not there, they would survive, but less so....
All those that have faced dying would admit that too, survival takes over, religion stifles. You only regret it afterwards, and you would not forget, but time does heal quite a bit..... One does not have time to weigh up the pro's and cons, it's either you or them, I'd rather it be them.....
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:18 PM   #73
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

Is this discussion centered on ending a life empty handed, or with weapons, ie firearms or knife?

If it is empty hand v. empty hand, it is so inconceivable that you could articulate that you had to use lethal force , before using incapacitating force first. Having been in said situation, many a time and on a regular basis for almost a quarter of a century, your skills are your saviour.

Having been in situations, within said window, empty hand v. weapon not being a firearm, my skills were my saviour. When the threat was weapons, being firearms, my skills were my saviour.

The three particular situations were it escalated to lethal force, one involved firearm v. firearm, the others, empty hand v.non-firearm, my skills and training were my saviour.

Y'all can take this with a grain of salt, but, you will not know what you will do until that situation presents itself.

So, please consider yourselves fortunate that you have not, and hopefully never will, experienced the life drain from another human being.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:07 PM   #74
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Would you kill an attacker?

Quote:
Nick Porter wrote: View Post
In response to the poll:

I don't think the question is _would_ you kill an attacker, but rather- COULD you kill an attacker? I'm not talking fighting or anything, I'm talking if it came down to it, do you think you could muster up what it takes to end another human being's life?

Something to ponder,

-Nick
I think it would really depend on the situation.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:26 PM   #75
Anjisan
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Ki Symbol Re: Would you kill an attacker?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Is this discussion centered on ending a life empty handed, or with weapons, ie firearms or knife?

If it is empty hand v. empty hand, it is so inconceivable that you could articulate that you had to use lethal force , before using incapacitating force first. Having been in said situation, many a time and on a regular basis for almost a quarter of a century, your skills are your saviour.

Having been in situations, within said window, empty hand v. weapon not being a firearm, my skills were my saviour. When the threat was weapons, being firearms, my skills were my saviour.

The three particular situations were it escalated to lethal force, one involved firearm v. firearm, the others, empty hand v.non-firearm, my skills and training were my saviour.

Y'all can take this with a grain of salt, but, you will not know what you will do until that situation presents itself.

So, please consider yourselves fortunate that you have not, and hopefully never will, experienced the life drain from another human being.

Train well,

Mickey
I agree with what you are saying in "most" situations, but I can easily see a Kokyu throw on cement, attacker hits head on sidewalk or parking lot or whatever and either breaks neck(because unlike us-said attacker will probably not know how to roll) or hits head-ceberal hematoma-possible death. At least where I live, the self-defence laws revolve around proportionate level of force, thus I don't believe that only Ikkyu and likewise benign techniques have to be used. One might just hit their head and be dead.
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