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Old 04-16-2012, 07:14 AM   #151
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Hi Greg

If you take a look, you can see I cited that thread myself in my initial post. I also provided a video as a further example.

My interest was to get an explanation of "dual opposing spirals". I'm not an expert, so this idea of dual spirals seems a bit confusing to me. What are they and how does one create them? If you guys are claiming they're important to elbow power - and that aikido elbow power is different to what's been cited so far - Id like to know more about it.
Take a look at the video in the thread linked below - the split being talked about is comprised of dual opposing spirals with one going up and the other going down at the same time - the energies behind the movements should be spiraling and not linear. This is the best I can do without a face to face - sorry.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21189

Greg

p.s. the guy in the video does not talk about spirals - IMO, he may or he may not be applying spiral energy in his splitting, but the opposing movment of up an down is present at the same time.

Last edited by gregstec : 04-16-2012 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:28 PM   #152
bernardkwan
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Interesting tidbit - pointed out by one of my guys.

He was looking through "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido" (the John Stevens translation), and mentioned that he couldn't find any mention of "Elbow Power".

So I looked through the original Japanese and sure enough there was:
第四十九 臂力の養成
"49. Elbow Power Development"
The translation in "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido":

"49. Developing Arm Power"
Hi Chris -

I am not a Stevens Fan nor to discuss the "how" of IS but isn't the appropriate Kanji for elbow - 肘 and not 臂? 臂 refers to the arm, and usually the upper arm (biceps and triceps). Nowhere in Classical Chinese or Chinese Medicine on which Classical Japanese / Kanpo is based would 臂 refer to the elbow.

To paraphrase Freud - sometimes a banana is just a banana...and not all references are to sex / IS

Last edited by bernardkwan : 04-16-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:39 PM   #153
Chris Li
 
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Re: Elbow Power

Hey Bernard,

This is a tricky one - you're right, in Chinese it would refer to the arm, not the elbow. However, the meaning shifts in Japanese usage, where it takes on the meaning of "elbow".

Case in point - Yoshinkan, which uses the same Kanji in 臂力の養成, but translates it as "Elbow Power Development" - and Gozo Shioda was actively training at the time that "Budo" was written.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:43 PM   #154
bernardkwan
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Re: Elbow Power

Great thanks for the clarification.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:44 PM   #155
JimClark
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Some very good IS/IP concepts shown in that video

Greg
I started reading this thread because of the title, but I haven't seen anyone actually explain or show a demonstration of what they are defining as elbow power. I have been training in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun alone with my Aikido training for the last 4years. HFY has this concept of elbow power/energy as a fundamental part of the art. They also use wrist energy and other things depending on range and situation. It is quite simple to understand and has transformed my Aikido. It's all about physics, body alignment and structure with proper intent. I can now see and feel for myself why techniques succeed or fail based on simple geometry. I've been to a number of seminars outside my area since learning this stuff and I find myself easily moving uke's around that I used to have trouble with.

I have no idea what Dan does, but I took a short class with Popkin Sensei recently. I found many of his principles to be identical or nearly so to the HFY concepts, and shared that with him then. He has good stuff, but I'm getting very similar concepts in my HFY training and have limited time so I can't really explore that right now with my schedule.

Cheers,
Jim

Learn to see everything accurately. Do not do anything useless. -Miyamoto Musashi, The Earth Scroll, The Book of Five Rings.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:14 AM   #156
DH
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Jim Clark wrote: View Post
I started reading this thread because of the title, but I haven't seen anyone actually explain or show a demonstration of what they are defining as elbow power. I have been training in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun alone with my Aikido training for the last 4years. HFY has this concept of elbow power/energy as a fundamental part of the art. They also use wrist energy and other things depending on range and situation. It is quite simple to understand and has transformed my Aikido. It's all about physics, body alignment and structure with proper intent. I can now see and feel for myself why techniques succeed or fail based on simple geometry. I've been to a number of seminars outside my area since learning this stuff and I find myself easily moving uke's around that I used to have trouble with.

I have no idea what Dan does, but I took a short class with Popkin Sensei recently. I found many of his principles to be identical or nearly so to the HFY concepts, and shared that with him then. He has good stuff, but I'm getting very similar concepts in my HFY training and have limited time so I can't really explore that right now with my schedule.

Cheers,
Jim
Hello Jim
Elbow power as "a principle" or a technique is not what we do. It is imbedded in a type of movement we utilize, so that elbow power is not something you need to think about it....it happens. I could say the same thing with our knees.
As has been pointed out; various higher level arts have similar theories. I think the most strident failure is folks not understanding In yo ho (yin yang method) and intent, so they end up mimicing movement they see, without ever attaining the power and softness therein.

From what I have seen of Hung ga Yi your use of the body and arm as a frame would pretty much nullify what we are trying to accomplish. Of course there are other similar things as in all arts. I think it would be better to look at a combination of Koryu, Chen taiji and FMA to relate to what we do. Elbow is not independent from the body- to the wrist- to the hand. Everything works in a series of three from feet to finger.
Dan
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:52 PM   #157
JimClark
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Jim
...
As has been pointed out; various higher level arts have similar theories. I think the most strident failure is folks not understanding In yo ho (yin yang method) and intent, so they end up mimicing movement they see, without ever attaining the power and ...
Dan
Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly do you mean by yin yang method?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Jim
...From what I have seen of Hung ga Yi your use of the body and arm as a frame would pretty much nullify what we are trying to accomplish. Of course there are other similar things as in all arts. I think it would be better to look at a combination of Koryu, Chen taiji and FMA to relate to what we do. Elbow is not independent from the body- to the wrist- to the hand. Everything works in a series of three from feet to finger.
Dan
What do you mean by nullify? That what you do is completely the opposite of HFY concept? Have you studied HFY somewhere or just done research/reading? Like any art, it has to be felt to be truly understood. However, understanding the HFY concepts have helped me see structural flaws in video of many different arts on YouTube. (which is not surprising given the wide range of examples online)

Is your practice similar to what Popkin Sensei is doing, or different? I will have another chance to train with him soon in Arizona which I plan on taking advantage of.

Cheers.
Jim

Learn to see everything accurately. Do not do anything useless. -Miyamoto Musashi, The Earth Scroll, The Book of Five Rings.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:52 AM   #158
DH
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Jim Clark wrote: View Post
Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly do you mean by yin yang method?
What do you mean by nullify? That what you do is completely the opposite of HFY concept? Have you studied HFY somewhere or just done research/reading? Like any art, it has to be felt to be truly understood. However, understanding the HFY concepts have helped me see structural flaws in video of many different arts on YouTube. (which is not surprising given the wide range of examples online)

Is your practice similar to what Popkin Sensei is doing, or different? I will have another chance to train with him soon in Arizona which I plan on taking advantage of.
Cheers.
Jim
Hi Jim
As you noted.... "understanding the HFY concepts have helped me see structural flaws in video of many different arts on YouTube"
I would agree. What a person knows can greatly enhance or seriously limit their ability "to see" martial movement. That said, seeing a system that remains fairly consistent, player to player allows someone to see their methods and what they are trying to achieve in doing them.

As for HFY
No, I am not being that definitive. I was discussing a body movement quality and where it would leave openings. From what I have seen, all arts have them so it isn't a singular event or negative on your art. It's all of our arts. Yet another reason MMA is such a sound practice. I think of it as each art being a deep well we drink from, then we make our own expression...good or bad.

Yin yang is too complicated to discuss on the web. As a model, and where and how it effects everything it is difficult enough to demonstrate in person. Once it is more completely understood, you see why and how "no force" can be a reality no matter where the body is touched. Many times what is perceived as "power" actually...never was. It just feels that way to the person trying to get in,

I haven't seen or felt Howard's expression of his training with me, or Gleasons, or anyone else's in their arts yet. We don't really discuss individual arts when we get together. For some reason though, I would suspect many are on the same page in many areas. You have to remember I advocate FOR the arts. I hope we maintain them and deepen them. But that is their job, not mine. In fact, I cannot do what they are attempting and deeply invested in. I am an MMA guy. Bill will look me me right in the eye and say...this or that..is his that he formed from training with me. I just say...Yes sir!! So...I think you should ask them!!

Dan
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Old 04-21-2012, 01:08 AM   #159
patrick de block
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... Elbow is not independent from the body- to the wrist- to the hand. Everything works in a series of three from feet to finger.
Dan
Something like Chen Zhonghua explains in one of his 'Energy Aligment' DVD's using the elbow as an example?
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Old 04-22-2012, 03:20 AM   #160
bob_stra
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Re: Elbow Power

Here's an interesting, Aikido-specific reference to Elbow power (including an exercise) from Alex Essani

Aikido, Iron Balls and Elbow Power

Also Here

Notice that the exercise seems to involve balancing a weight in such a manner that the local arm musculature isn't unduly responsible for holding the weight. This would be in-line (pardon the pun) with the video clips I posted from CMA. Of course, Essani's take isn't necessarily definitive nor mandated by heaven, but it's at least something substantive and congruent.

Dan, now that you seem to be back online: do you have any further comments re: posts #115 and #117
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:14 PM   #161
HL1978
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Re: Elbow Power

So what are peoples thoughts on using the elbow? Is the power expressed from the elbow rather than the hand? Is it an intention thing? Clearly there are positions with the elbows that are more structurally sound, but I don't think thats what is mean't by elbow power is it?

Kind of seems like everyone is struggling around in the dark to me.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:18 AM   #162
Mario Tobias
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Re: Elbow Power

looks like the secret is just within the lowly kokyuho and tai no henko exercises. very basic but also very misunderstood. the lines of power are either vertical or horizontal to uke/nage.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:55 PM   #163
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Elbow Power

In Tomiki, "elbow power" is called "Hiriki" and moves up the center of an opponent. We always do Hiriki in class and it shows when my students go to seminars of a different style. Coupled with the movement of hiriki is the use and movement of the wrist. Sounds simple but it isn't.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:09 PM   #164
Chris Li
 
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
In Tomiki, "elbow power" is called "Hiriki" and moves up the center of an opponent. We always do Hiriki in class and it shows when my students go to seminars of a different style. Coupled with the movement of hiriki is the use and movement of the wrist. Sounds simple but it isn't.
Which brings us neatly back to the original post:

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Interesting tidbit - pointed out by one of my guys.

He was looking through "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido" (the John Stevens translation), and mentioned that he couldn't find any mention of "Elbow Power".

So I looked through the original Japanese and sure enough there was:
第四十九 臂力の養成
"49. Elbow Power Development"
The translation in "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido":

"49. Developing Arm Power"
So...Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda both translated "Hiriki" as "Elbow Power" - but we see that not only has it mostly vanished as a core concept from modern Aikido, but what is usually considered the canonical translation is...wrong.

Isn't that interesting?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2012, 01:29 PM   #165
roadtoad
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Re: Elbow Power

osensei said that three aikitaisos taught all of aikido, tai no henko, morotedori kokuho, and kokyu dosa.
You will never see Saito doing morotedori kokuho correctly, unless you have a clip before 1963, when I learned it from him, his knees went bad after that, and he could no longer execute the throw correctly.
Even the video of 'Iwama 1964', doesn't show him doing that technique correctly, his knees were already that bad.
On the second part of the throw, you have to place your forward leg behind yourself, and lower only your elbow, this is the meaning of 'elbow power', But no video exists of the technique being done properly, to my knowledge.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:11 PM   #166
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
osensei said that three aikitaisos taught all of aikido, tai no henko, morotedori kokuho, and kokyu dosa.
You will never see Saito doing morotedori kokuho correctly, unless you have a clip before 1963, when I learned it from him, his knees went bad after that, and he could no longer execute the throw correctly.
Even the video of 'Iwama 1964', doesn't show him doing that technique correctly, his knees were already that bad.
On the second part of the throw, you have to place your forward leg behind yourself, and lower only your elbow, this is the meaning of 'elbow power', But no video exists of the technique being done properly, to my knowledge.
Elbow Power has absolutely nothing to do with techiques. Nor would you see elbow power on video. Ueshiba had it, Tomiki had it, Shioda had it. Show me on video where.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:27 PM   #167
roadtoad
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Re: Elbow Power

didn't I just say that: ' there is no video that shows it'?
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:02 AM   #168
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
didn't I just say that: ' there is no video that shows it'?
No. You said that elbow power was a technique, a way of physically placing the elbow in a certain position. That is incorrect. Elbow power is an internal concept/principle, not an external technique, not a specific placement of the elbow.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #169
DH
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
No. You said that elbow power was a technique, a way of physically placing the elbow in a certain position. That is incorrect. Elbow power is an internal concept/principle, not an external technique, not a specific placement of the elbow.
+1
And as such...you can teach it, in detail and it takes an incredible amount of work to make it work.
Dan
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:37 AM   #170
patrick de block
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Re: Elbow Power

No video, but a picture from HIPS by Ellis Amdur on page 45 (Hisa Takuma) and also next page: Shi, Ki and Ryoku.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:56 AM   #171
Rob Watson
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
didn't I just say that: ' there is no video that shows it'?
How 'bout posting a vid of you doing it the way Saito showed you so we all know how to do it right? That would be quite a community service!

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:59 AM   #172
Edgecrusher
 
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Re: Elbow Power

Hiriki is quite powerful and very effective. We practice it constantly and make sure our newer students understand it's importance when doing techniques.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:18 PM   #173
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
How 'bout posting a vid of you doing it the way Saito showed you so we all know how to do it right? That would be quite a community service!
Does aikiweb have a emoticon for crickets chirping?
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:12 AM   #174
mrlizard123
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Does aikiweb have a emoticon for crickets chirping?
No but...


Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:17 AM   #175
DH
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
No but...

Rich! Excellent. You found a way for you and Ben's wit to make it on the internet. Wait...no...don't do that!
Dan
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