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Old 05-01-2012, 09:13 AM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Interesting comments. Hopefully it doesn't degrade into who had what as a formal education certificate and thus away from the point.

Asimov for example has many quotes to do with education and thus the system of but all more to do with learning more outside of the system than in it.

There are many examples in life of the so called 'uneducated' going and learning how to do things themselves and being super successful. Take Richard Branson for example. These people may have 'some' or no qualifications but they had a certain quality, a quality easily destroyed by the system of education used.

It's so simple in essence that I believe people need to wake up to the simplicities involved and throw away the nit picking arguments and complexities and 'intellectual rubbish'.

Firstly, the best part of schooling where the majority of kids have a good time is infant and primary schooling. Why?

Because they are doing what is talked about in the video. They are meeting and sharing and having fun with others and learning in a fun way with play items from the abacus to building bricks.

They are also learning something they can see has use. It's usable and desirable to them. Reading, writing and arithmetic. Basics.

Thereafter it all goes wrong because they are now given things to study they see no use for and so enter the deluded world of false reasons called passing exams so you can have a better life. So many stupid reasons given and bought into. No wonder they end up rebellious.

Some folks manage to go on to be great sci fi writers or whatever and the system will shout about how it's down to their education. Ha, ha, what a joke. Did they study sci fi writing? No.

They did it despite the system and as in Asimovs case despite his parents being against it.

So getting qualifications? Means not much at all really. I got many at school and later realized how useless they were. Good for image but not much else. I also have a friend who got to the last stages of a program called 'who wants to be a millionair' and won 250,000 pounds. He is like a walking encyclopedia. Yet practically he is useless really and he won't mind me saying that either for he tells me himself.

So I shall repeat, budo is love. Who can see the relationship of that staement to the education system or rather to a much better one?

I'll leave you with this clue, Asimov, Heinlein, Richard Branson, The Beatles, Ueshiba, Mother Theresa, Beethoven.....all followed this principle.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:50 AM   #27
Gary David
 
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post

Firstly, the best part of schooling where the majority of kids have a good time is infant and primary schooling. Why?

Because they are doing what is talked about in the video. They are meeting and sharing and having fun with others and learning in a fun way with play items from the abacus to building bricks.

They are also learning something they can see has use. It's usable and desirable to them. Reading, writing and arithmetic. Basics.

Thereafter it all goes wrong because they are now given things to study they see no use for and so enter the deluded world of false reasons called passing exams so you can have a better life. So many stupid reasons given and bought into. No wonder they end up rebellious.
Graham
I don't know how long you have been teaching primary or elementary school, but generally reading writing and math are general tools that can be used just to get along.....I agree that the reduction in art, music and other social skills kind of units are a loss.......much of that driven by funding......and maybe the demand for not child left behind.

The other area you seem to have not considered is the mix of individuals and cultures within the class room and the approaches taken by these varied individual children to class room participation. My wife has been teaching at this level for over 30 years and a more loving individual I have never met......so don't give me the more love comment. If you have been in the classroom for any length of time you will know that classroom size and the behavior patterns of the students are as real a problem as the what is taught. Parent involvement is spotty, some of the things these 2nd graders say, act out...could only come from outside the classroom. Trying to handle one who acts out can be handled....trying to handle several is problematic......hitting, biting, constant movement, talking to everyone all of time.....and more.. is what happens all of the time. So maybe separating these small ones into guilds early would be helpful....but don't count on the parents allowing this........

I comment Keith on this efforts with his daughter, this is much what I did with mine when she was small. answer every question, stop and look around when you see something of interest and be open to providing opportunities outside the home and school ............

As for your approach....I agree that once out of school what you specialized in in school may be not used, but I would not give up the experience of having been there.....the boring as well as the interesting and fun......life is just this......

So what are the basic tools needed Graham and how are they passed along, how do you steer folks in the right direction....or do you?

And I don't see True Budo is Love as a color of authority for this discussion.....

Gary
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:50 AM   #28
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
I don't know how long you have been teaching primary or elementary school, but generally reading writing and math are general tools that can be used just to get along.....I agree that the reduction in art, music and other social skills kind of units are a loss.......much of that driven by funding......and maybe the demand for not child left behind.

The other area you seem to have not considered is the mix of individuals and cultures within the class room and the approaches taken by these varied individual children to class room participation. My wife has been teaching at this level for over 30 years and a more loving individual I have never met......so don't give me the more love comment. If you have been in the classroom for any length of time you will know that classroom size and the behavior patterns of the students are as real a problem as the what is taught. Parent involvement is spotty, some of the things these 2nd graders say, act out...could only come from outside the classroom. Trying to handle one who acts out can be handled....trying to handle several is problematic......hitting, biting, constant movement, talking to everyone all of time.....and more.. is what happens all of the time. So maybe separating these small ones into guilds early would be helpful....but don't count on the parents allowing this........

I comment Keith on this efforts with his daughter, this is much what I did with mine when she was small. answer every question, stop and look around when you see something of interest and be open to providing opportunities outside the home and school ............

As for your approach....I agree that once out of school what you specialized in in school may be not used, but I would not give up the experience of having been there.....the boring as well as the interesting and fun......life is just this......

So what are the basic tools needed Graham and how are they passed along, how do you steer folks in the right direction....or do you?

And I don't see True Budo is Love as a color of authority for this discussion.....

Gary
What he said. My wife, her brother, and her mother are all teachers. I know several teachers. I am a little over half way through my own teaching degree and I've been a critical observer in school since I was a kid. I support our education system knowing pretty well the different kinds of issues it has. The "real" problem in my opinion with the education system today has very little to do with the educators and very much to do with parent values and "invisible" lessons kids bring with them into the classroom. My wife has taught at schools where the population simply doesn't value the education system beyond cheap day-care.
The point of school has less to do with the content of instruction than the process of learning; this process would appear miraculous if parents and communities embraced their local schools instead of viewing them as some kind of necessary evil. People are generally very clueless when it comes to understanding what even well-off teachers have to deal with.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:25 PM   #29
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Firstly, the best part of schooling where the majority of kids have a good time is infant and primary schooling. Why?

Because they are doing what is talked about in the video.
They are meeting and sharing and having fun with others and learning in a fun way with play items from the abacus to building bricks.

.
You did not understand what is being talked about in the video.
Eat a good meal, drink a few cups of hot coffee and sober up, then watch the video again.

dps
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:34 PM   #30
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thought I would post this video and hope some may find it interesting.

http://youtu.be/zDZFcDGpL4U

The reason is that on this forum I have said many times and many things about my having no use for 'academic' logic and 'educated gold braided authority'

This has caused much reaction in the past so hopefully this may open a few eyes. Especially those set on this and that 'must be' models.

Peace.G.
As near as I can tell, "the" education system is right up to speed on the issues brought forward by the video. Nothing was in there I wasn't taught in Intro to Ed. and reinforced by more specialized courses. The first thing they did was give me a history of the education system, pointing to the needs and wants which drove it from the time our first education secretary figured we take better care of our livestock than our students, up to the present where we constantly try to meet the demanding values of parents while juggling the political values issued from the "top."
This doesn't take away from the notion that ideas ought be backed up with logical proofs to the extent that they can be. I'd rather logic wasn't compartmentalized away from creativity, just to make creativity easier. Indeed both need to be equally present...which is tough because most people identify with one or the other...hardly an inclusive model. Einstein may have failed math, but he respected the need for logical proofs to his creative solutions.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 05-01-2012, 12:35 PM   #31
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

A very creative and entertaining presentation of a perceived problem that is woefully shy on suggestions for solutions. We used to call that whining. Nothing stops anyone from opening their own private school and turning out endless waves of wildly successful folks ... where are they?

If children are so wildly creative (and creativity is so great and all) why aren't they running the show? Being able to sift through a writhing sea of creative ideas and finding the few that are actually worth something AND being able to turn the ideas into practical reality takes extreme talent buttressed by education, experience and moxie and a double helping of luck and happy circumstance.

What stops kids from working collaboratively? We used to call that homework. My kids get together with their siblings and some kids from 'round the 'hood and do their homework as a group. Grades 2-6 working together on their own - we just provide the space and some snacks.

I find it is best not to confuse life experience with education (or vice versa) as both are important. We call that a field trip - the PTA is on the hook for those expenses.

Sometimes the solution is academic and no amount of creative fury can change that.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 05-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #32
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

One of my senseis is a teacher :-D

(and both of 'em went to college, whoa)
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:40 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

O.K. Gary and Matthew, thanks for the views.

The point of the video is to show the school system is at fault. Nothing to do with parents or culture or whatever other 'minor' things you want to factor into the equasion according to me.

I call them minor factors because by demonstration I have 'proved' such and do so in daily life. As for teachers I know many too. There are good ones and not so good ones but they are limited by the system it'self and their own unawareness of what good teaching is. (but that's another subject)

Budo is love Gary. Very pertinent to life and indeed education so it fits perfectly here in this discussion and according to me is the single most absent factor from the system and thus the cause of the problem.

This you may never of heard of before but as I generally find after using and demonstrating such principles with constant results I will inevitably find someone somewhere who uses them too and something somewhere would have been written about it by someone.

Let me give you a harsh reality test first. Think of something you love (or someone). Be it eating, be it a hobby, be it a pet, be it whatever but find something you love.

Now have a system, be given a system whereby you are not allowed to relate to that something or have anything to do with it but must relate and learn and practice and do something else. No you're not allowed to communicate to your wife Gary and Matthew you are not allowed to do so with your kids.

Pretty dumb wouldn't you say. But along may come some group of 'Authority' figures all with long grey diplomas (sorry I mean beards) and proclaim how it's all for the best you see, for the greater good you see, so that you turn out a better educated person you see........ Then when you and Gary complain then 'we authorities stroke our diplomas once again and sat how it's understandable because of your background and culture and obviously you have a psychological problem you see and, and, and.......lol!!!!

So Gary yes, I have had great successes with people helping them in their lives by knowing these things and thus knowing what's missing.

Love.

On talking to anyone you care to meet you can ask them once in a comfortable position if they had complete choice, without any considerations of why not or if it sounds ridiculous, but ask them what they love, what would they love to do or be able to do.

You see hidden inside that person is that something. Many will reject the question for they already consider it impossible or hold it as some secret hidden embarrassing thing. Many if not all saw it and knew it when they were small, when they were very young but were put down for saying it or even scolded for the mere mention of it.

So Gary I take it upon myself to find out what people would love to do, what they have put off, what they have been scared to mention, what they have never had the chance to do, whatever the reasoning and encourage them to do it. To learn it, to get good at it, to follow their true path.

The changes in people are indeed miraculous. I have given account here once before of a guy who was quite a successful stuntman who came to Aikido. He was massive and agile and couldn't believe how a skinny old man could throw him around like a rag doll and launch him through the air. He loved it. But as usual we wait. We wait for the real reason the person is here doing Aikido. We hold that every person who comes is here to solve some problem in their life and is searching, searching for something. Low and behold one day he got into a deep discussion and seemed to be rejecting something, something that seemed close to his heart. Well, we helped him through it low and behold out came something he always wanted to do but couldn't say.

He wanted to heal peoples eyes, he knew it when he was a kid yet was never allowed to even mention it for fear of ridicule. Due to his size and culture and where he lived and school he went to he was valued for his size and strength and sporting ability. He was now married with children and a house and established in his work. From the outside a successful man with a great family. Inside, a great big black hole.

To cut a long story short, despite the seeming impossibility due to age and situation he went on to study his dream and ended up moving to Canada opening an opticians practice of some kind or other. A happy man. That took discipline, that took courage, that took the budo of love.

So next time you here the successful telling you to follow your dream know what it means for it is following your love and the discipline, self discipline, to do so despite all pressures from family, friends, or whoever. Follow your true path.

Now if people had the awareness and indeed the responsibility to know these truths then youngsters could be encouraged to follow their dreams too. To find out what it is each kid has a natural love and talent for and set and educational path to suit. Now THAT would be ideal.

By the way, I apply this to my own son too and now he lives a very exciting and fulfilling life. Full of challenges yes, always learning yes, but progression all the way following his path.

The funny story that goes along with his case is once again something to do with when he was young. He was only five or six at the time. He had his favorite toys and teddy bears etc and different games and things he liked doing but I noticed one that stood out. In fact at that age it was unusual. When he went to bed he snuggled up to not a teddy bear but a toy saxaphone. I then decided to observe him more with relationship to music and found that in school his teacher said he loved it and seemed very aquainted with it for someone so young. When he was seven we asked him if he would like to learn how to play saxaphone and he positively beamed. It was like the room turned gold.

That was it. By the time he was fourteen he had passed all exams and was now professional standard and playing for the Harrow School of Music Orchestra and touring with them too.

His world is music and the saxaphone is his symbol he says and thus follows his path.

Matthew, I have read some of your blogs and see that despite your unsurities you love Aikido and thus it is part of your path too. It is the love that guides you is it not?

Well I hope that explains where I am coming from on this subject. May you all enjoy your own paths too.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:54 PM   #34
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Tom, are you familiar with the saying, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"?

That's the kind of cheap shot I'm talking about: someone who gives an answer that by sheer dumb luck happens to be not entirely incorrect.
Mary,
English is not my first language, so we may have a language barrier here - but I honestly do not understand what you mean. You are quoting only my first sentence - how could that sentence be a cheap shot?
I only meant to express that at first I was not convinced by Robinson's view. Education has always been important to me and it was not something that was handed out to me. I started working at a very young age and it took me a long time to reach university. I know the academic world and the people I talked with about these educational problems are academics. At first I had similar arguments as you mentioned; it is easy to blame the educational institution. I tended to blame the parents and t.v., computer-games, etc. And I tended to blame the young people themselves ; they did not work hard enough during their education time. But listening to these university teachers and after seeing Robinson's talks I start to see that there is an actual problem within our educational system. We are with this educational system not facing up to the problems of modern society and the rising problems of the coming decade(s). Society needs more young people with skills and creativity, that the educational system at this moment is not providing for.

I think it is a good thing to have a discussion on this subject on this forum. At this moment changing the educational system is very much a point of discussion in several European countries at every level. Robinson's talks seem to be very timely.

Further more; whether in a real fight or in a battle with words; I am not into cheap shots. The language might be a barrier - but I try to present my position with the best arguments I can come up with. They may not be good enough, in which case you can counter-argument. I may have my my facts wrong - in that case please correct me. You may not agree with me - well such is life.
But to call my argument a cheap shot - well, that is a cheap shot isn't it?

Greetings from the Auvergne
Tom
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:12 PM   #35
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
There may be other causes. In my country less and less students are interested in those kind of studies. I think that before the eighties or so, getting a degree in science or medicine meant that you'd be sure to have a good career and a respected position in society.

But nowadays, the road to success is business schools, studying law, finance, economics, management, marketing. You'll have better career opportunities and you'll be closer to the money. That's what counts today. That's where the best students go to.

In my opinion, you have to be a fairly idealistic to study science or medicine these days. It's definitely not as rewarding as it used to be. These studies used to get the best students, but not anymore.
I think you are right. But that is also part of the problem. All those subjects might make money - for now. But none of them can provide a solution to problems concerning the change of climate, the produce of food, the dangers of the rise of water-level in the seas and rivers, the growing water-shortage, the need for energy resources, etc. For that we need people with other skills and a different way of creative thinking.
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:36 PM   #36
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Mary,
English is not my first language, so we may have a language barrier here - but I honestly do not understand what you mean. You are quoting only my first sentence - how could that sentence be a cheap shot?
I wasn't referring to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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I think it is a good thing to have a discussion on this subject on this forum.
If it proceeds honestly, based on facts rather than fantasy, sure.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:08 PM   #37
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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So Gary yes, I have had great successes with people helping them in their lives by knowing these things and thus knowing what's missing.

Love.
So Graham

I have was going to come back on this.......but there is no common ground. I would suggest you try teaching for a year in a classroom of 32 seven year olds, 10 of which act out or have other behavior problems, many who come from single parent homes, maybe live in motels or in small apartments with three generations of family, maybe 4 of which have parents that can't communicate directly with you because of language barriers, have one or more parents in jail or on drugs....this is a common distribution....now this a place where your direct presence and approach could have amazing results......

Let me know how it goes......

Gary
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:09 AM   #38
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
So Graham

I have was going to come back on this.......but there is no common ground. I would suggest you try teaching for a year in a classroom of 32 seven year olds, 10 of which act out or have other behavior problems, many who come from single parent homes, maybe live in motels or in small apartments with three generations of family, maybe 4 of which have parents that can't communicate directly with you because of language barriers, have one or more parents in jail or on drugs....this is a common distribution....now this a place where your direct presence and approach could have amazing results......

Let me know how it goes......

Gary
Well if that's all you have to say then so be it. I have already let you know 'how it goes'.

The type of 'comment' you make above blames everything and everyone but the teaching and the system. Blame in my mind is very very low on responsibility and awareness and understanding. Shame so many buy into it.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:48 AM   #39
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Before anyone else asks me about cultural, familial, behavioural or any other 'problems' or labels they want to apply to kids may I just say two things.
1}Drop the labels and excuses.
2) All such 'reasons' for how difficult it is merely shows the need, in fact emphasizes the need for teaching what is interesting and useful (to the student!) rather than carrying on with the same old curriculum blaming all and sundry for their lack of attention.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:15 AM   #40
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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The type of 'comment' you make above blames everything and everyone but the teaching and the system. Blame in my mind is very very low on responsibility and awareness and understanding. Shame so many buy into it.
You are misreading David's post. I think that rather than dishing out blame, he is saying that you are not familiar with the reality of the matter on which you have a strong opinion.

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Old 05-02-2012, 07:46 AM   #41
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Before anyone else asks me about cultural, familial, behavioural or any other 'problems' or labels they want to apply to kids may I just say two things.
1}Drop the labels and excuses.
2) All such 'reasons' for how difficult it is merely shows the need, in fact emphasizes the need for teaching what is interesting and useful (to the student!) rather than carrying on with the same old curriculum blaming all and sundry for their lack of attention.

Peace.G.
What's interesting and useful to these students is being taught, the pimps and pushers have the money, the fancy cars and all the cool toys, they carry the coolest guns. Can't get much more interesting, or useful to escape their present circumstances. No labels, no excuses. Facts.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:53 AM   #42
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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What's interesting and useful to these students is being taught, the pimps and pushers have the money, the fancy cars and all the cool toys, they carry the coolest guns. Can't get much more interesting, or useful to escape their present circumstances. No labels, no excuses. Facts.
Same old excuses. I think that's as far as most want to look or think. This only validates my point.

If the system was good then the education would be seen by the young kids as valuable, of worth, enjoyable and leading somewhere good.

Because it's not they end up led by other things. So simple.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:47 AM   #43
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Same old excuses. I think that's as far as most want to look or think. This only validates my point.

If the system was good then the education would be seen by the young kids as valuable, of worth, enjoyable and leading somewhere good.

Because it's not they end up led by other things. So simple.

Peace.G.
Graham
OK I try one more time..........
I don't have a problem with your model as I understand it........the problem as I see it lies in the resources to put it into affect. As a teaching model it requires one on one time.....all of the teacher's time. When you have 32 to 1 you do not have that time. You can't single focus on one student and forget the rest.......and you can't leave them on their own.... the open class room model was tried for a while...kids to learn what they wanted...it was the new way...much in the framing that you are talking to. It didn't last.....with the numbers you couldn't keep any on task control.....they moved as the winds took them.....it was chaotic....

As bad as the system may be......it does provide mandatory education in this country.......it gives you reading and writing skills that can help you on your way. .........

Naaah enough of this....

Graham you will never concede a point once you have make your statement and you are always right.....and it is always about what you have accomplished.......have fun with it........that's cool...

we are done.......

Gary
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:25 PM   #44
Keith Larman
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Graham, wow, such simple solutions to what everyone else I know who actually have kids find to be a complex and vexing problem. Raising and educating a child. I guess we're all just too dense to realize all those apparent trade-offs and balancing acts about providing guidance, letting them explore, encouraging growth, encouraging creativity, but teaching focus and responsibility are just figments of our collective imaginations.

It must be nice to see the world so very clearly with your obvious fantastic intellect and spectacular level of sensitivity.

Or else you're so completely convinced of your world view that you can't see past your own nose.

Pfftt.

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Old 05-02-2012, 01:33 PM   #45
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
OK I try one more time..........
I don't have a problem with your model as I understand it........the problem as I see it lies in the resources to put it into affect. As a teaching model it requires one on one time.....all of the teacher's time. When you have 32 to 1 you do not have that time. You can't single focus on one student and forget the rest.......and you can't leave them on their own.... the open class room model was tried for a while...kids to learn what they wanted...it was the new way...much in the framing that you are talking to. It didn't last.....with the numbers you couldn't keep any on task control.....they moved as the winds took them.....it was chaotic....

As bad as the system may be......it does provide mandatory education in this country.......it gives you reading and writing skills that can help you on your way. .........

Naaah enough of this....

Graham you will never concede a point once you have make your statement and you are always right.....and it is always about what you have accomplished.......have fun with it........that's cool...

we are done.......

Gary
Gary. You started so I'll reply. I do not concede points tested and applied no. My accomplishments are not boasts, they are generally asked for with relation to the subject I am talking about and given to show it's not airy fairy talk.

Now, apart from that you started off with some valid points which seemed to be more reasonable to me anyway.

Well the starting point is that the system is faulty in the extreme. The why has never really been addressed so all that's happened is different models have been tried based on false reasoning so obviously they didn't last.

I agree that basic reading and writing and arithmetic are needed and have already said that at that very young age there is no problem really. It's after that where it all goes askew.

So let's take what I said and put it into a structure off the cuff shall we. Let's not take it as 'let them do what they want type attitude but at the same time take the fact that a person learns with enthusiasm the things the would love to do

So when a system is so wrong and obviously stupid and yet everyone apathetically goes along with it thinking it's the best they can do then it is quite obvious to me that same apathy is what keeps it in place. Nobody is really bothered.

However to find a better solution we would then have to come outside of the box, outside of the 'expert opinion' box for they are the cause of such failure. We have to go back to the roots of learning and then create a new model that fits better than the old.

Now, as an aside here there is a very simple way of finding better models and better ways of doing things but it is generally blocked by prejudices and stupidity, again usually by 'experts'. It's very simple and I guarantee if I was in a position of Authority or influence it would be the first thing to do. That is simply go out and find different models that work much better. That's the first thing to do. The funny thing is there always are some. Then you will find that it is fixed old fuddy duddies and vested interests that get in the way of change.

Then I would find all the outstanding, by results, teachers; all the ones who had extremely happy students with great results continuously and ask them the secrets of their success.

Once again the best are usually outside of the old school tie brigade and usually anti the system to various degrees because they see how dumb it is. Yet they have worked out winning ways. These folks are almost unerringly put down because they don't fit the 'profile', don't lick the principals boots, don't belong to the right club. You know, the usual human idiocy.

Ha, ha, and we haven't even stepped outside of the box yet.

We would have to look for, by consulting with kids (not old experts) what they would like to learn about in school if they had complete choice and we could qualify it by saying what they would like to learn about that they feel would be exciting and pertinent to their everyday life and future life. A very simple start, not complicated.

A massive research project. You would end up things wanted by many yet not taught at all.

Why not teach them how to drive, basic car mechanics, how to cook, Basic building skills, you know, with real bricks and mortar. Even the academic ones could at least say then that they have actually physically handled a brick and done something ha, ha.

Secretarial skills, all kinds of things and industry could actually get involved and get creative and design courses that could be taught in schools that have meaning to the kids and a future. Who knows maybe the rail service could come up with something and they would even supply a train carriage. Interesting things that relate to real life now. In fact if that was made a rule then industry would be fighting to get their courses in the curriculum and paying too.

Now who says you have to have one teacher for 32 students? To me that's one of the most lazy ways of doing things I could possibly imagine and yet people think it's normal. Give me a break!

It's what you have and it's mad,that's as much as I would say on the matter.

Now if organization was done based on the above, where the courses were of value to the students and industry then the maths could be done based on how many chose to do what subjects. You could have 20 in one popular subject and ten in another. What's the problem? You could have three classes of three subjects with ten in each. Many many formats but it takes the will instead of lazy ignorance.

With industry, with the real world involved, there will be plenty of money around.

Anyway, that's ten minutes worth of 'thinking' without much concentrated attention yet it shows you don't have to stick to things cos 'that's the way they are.' Especially when they don't work.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:49 PM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Graham, wow, such simple solutions to what everyone else I know who actually have kids find to be a complex and vexing problem. Raising and educating a child. I guess we're all just too dense to realize all those apparent trade-offs and balancing acts about providing guidance, letting them explore, encouraging growth, encouraging creativity, but teaching focus and responsibility are just figments of our collective imaginations.

It must be nice to see the world so very clearly with your obvious fantastic intellect and spectacular level of sensitivity.

Or else you're so completely convinced of your world view that you can't see past your own nose.

Pfftt.
Thanks Keith. But please don't call me a fantastic intellect, to me that's an insult.

Raising kids is hard for some yet easy to some too. If you learned from the ones who it is easy to then you could learn much.

Your explanation above about balancing acts and trade offs and, and , and, woahhhhhh. If you see it as so complex then no wonder it's so hard for you or those you talk about.

I hope at least it is a pleasure for you.

Don't worry, I know plenty of parents too who have the same problems.

I'm good at some things, very good at some things, useless at some things. Me and my son are like best mates and brothers so I guess I'm not bad there. To me it was fun, it was in fact great fun and let's not forget his mother shall we.

Why you or anyone else don't like the fact of me being good at or even extremely good at some things merely amuses me. You want to hear about what I'm not good at I could write a book for you.
However, I generally comment on those things I do, very simple really.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:42 PM   #47
lbb
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Graham, we really don't hate you because you're beautiful. Honest.

(and we don't hate freedom, either)

Tell me, why is it such an affront to you when people ask if you've ever put your theories (which, I'll be honest, appear facile to me) to the test in some of the situations where you seem unwilling to forgive a less than perfect performance in others? Here in los estados unidos, we call what you're doing "armchair quarterbacking". I'm sure you have a term for it across the pond, too.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:59 PM   #48
Gorgeous George
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My views are very creative actually, outside of the usual box thank you. Asimov? You like his statement do you? Funny thing is neither he or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all.

Peace. G.
Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Asimov had a PHD in biochemistry.
HAHAHAHAAHA!



Graham Christian: a credit to aikido.

The guy must be a troll - who really hates aikido; he has to be.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:39 PM   #49
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Graham, we really don't hate you because you're beautiful. Honest.

(and we don't hate freedom, either)

Tell me, why is it such an affront to you when people ask if you've ever put your theories (which, I'll be honest, appear facile to me) to the test in some of the situations where you seem unwilling to forgive a less than perfect performance in others? Here in los estados unidos, we call what you're doing "armchair quarterbacking". I'm sure you have a term for it across the pond, too.
Pardon? Put my theories to the test? I don't see that as an affront thank you as I explain how I do so. you have totally lost me there.

Unwilling to forgive a less than perfect performance in others? What does that refer to? I'm lost once again.

When I do give examples of how and when and in what way I put things to the test and demonstrate some of you, two examples right here in this thread, accuse me of being 'oh so perfect or some such futile statement. If I do indeed say something that is incorrect it's pounced on with such glee that it appears to me it is not I who is an armchair quarterback.

I think I may do it on purpose one day and just sit back and watch the usual crew pounce, I'm sure it would make their day or even their year.

That I find quite sad really.

It reminds me of a guy me and my friend were working with last year. A very negative guy, full of himself yet not very good at his job. In fact all we were doing was helping him as he was in a bit of trouble. But he would wait and wait and eventually spot some mistake and shout I've got ya. It would make his day and even his weekend. Quite oblivious to his own below standard work as a norm. Quite amusing.

I've told you before Mary, I only say what I do, what I teach, my views I use and the results.

If you or anyone else don't believe or understand that then it's not my problem is it?

I have also said that I don't tell others what they are or are not or can and can't do but I can't say the same about some for they are full of opinions about me. Once again it's a matter of simplicity and honesty. Simplicity is I don't know the person at the other end. Only ego would assume it does.

I can tell you how I am but can you accept it? That's all it's down to really. So it appears to me that some can't accept certain things about me. Again, not my problem for it is the good things they can't accept.

Such is life ha, ha. Do I worry about it?

Peace.G.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:46 AM   #50
sorokod
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

When I do give examples of how and when and in what way I put things to the test and demonstrate some of you, two examples right here in this thread
the examples:

1.

Quote:
"The funny story that goes along with his case is once again something to do with when he was young. He was only five or six at the time. He had his favorite toys and teddy bears etc and different games and things he liked doing but I noticed one that stood out. In fact at that age it was unusual. When he went to bed he snuggled up to not a teddy bear but a toy saxaphone. I then decided to observe him more with relationship to music and found that in school his teacher said he loved it and seemed very aquainted with it for someone so young. When he was seven we asked him if he would like to learn how to play saxaphone and he positively beamed. It was like the room turned gold."
2.
Quote:
"I remember a senior lecturer from a polytechnic turning up on my doorstep one day looking so sad. I had given his wife, also a senior lecturer at the same place a basic course in the basics of study and because she had then excelled he got interested. Unfortunately it made him realize what he didn't know and thus turned up on my doorstep needing some help. I soon got him through it."

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